Pulling up in the middle of a set when score is tied

[JB Cases]

lol. I love how a con artist who openly admits he attempted to scam a champion is a "good guy",
and dennis is a "bottom feeder" for trying to pull his leg out of the trap.

Only on AZB.

No way is Rob a con-artist here. Dennis gives up spots all the time and mostly outruns them. Dennis is no naive player and didn't get scammed at all. He just matched up badly for a dime. Sometimes that happens when you are desperate for action and no one will play.

The action side of pool is it's own world and it's not "hustling" if you are negotiating a spot in a place where all the players are known gamblers. When the game is made though there is no "quit" clause. Dennis knows this. He simply had a brain fart and tried to pull a iggy move in front of a group of battle-hardened gamblers.

I read that Jay said Rob was playing with a funky bridge to hustle Dennis? Even if that were true what does that say about Dennis then? Did he then think that he was flat out stealing from a guy that could barely hold a cue? And for that matter the shaky bridge trick is the oldest one in the book and it's really embarassing if the world's best money player fell for the oldest trick in the book.

The set was for a measly $1000. Race to 15. Works our to be between $63 and $33 a game. Is it worth that for Rob to try and use amateur hustling tricks on Dennis? I mean really if that's the case then Rob would have lost the set by a wide margin and walked around the room "pissed off" offering to bet the farm and gotten a 10k or more bet down and then beat Orcullo.

Orcullo was simply on tilt mentally and made a bad call. The right move was to play it out with no moves and simply take the loss and move on. Somedays you're the car and somedays you're the bug. No shame in losing if you ended up giving up the nuts and can't outrun them, lots of shame in pulling up in the middle of a set because you're getting your nuts shot off.

 

[JB Cases]

With positive, uplifting stories like this going around about matches between quality local players and world champions, I just don't understand why the general public gives pool such a bad rap...

The general public doesn't read AZB and it's a dead lock that stories about gambling are way more entertaining than dry stories about tournament statistics.

As Jam pointed out the two movies that impacted pool the most were about gambling. And just about every pool movie ever made was about gambling.

This story doesn't mean anything to the world at large.

 

[richiebalto]

I can't believe this comment, It is called matching up . I have been on both ends of this. There is nothing wrong with making a game to your advantage. You have hustled many over your lifetime, I am sure. All of the old road trips. Trying to defend Dennis in this spot is useless. Dennis should pay in full. Not 50%. Dennis has been around far too long to know right from wrong. I wish I could of quit many times when I knew I made a bad game. Betting way more than a dime. I finished the set and paid off. Don't you like it Jay, when you get the nuts. I do, because it is rare. Dennis made a bad game, congrats Rob the way you handled the situation. You paid $850 to Dennis to let him out of the set. Do you think Rob should have asked Dennis to play even ? I am sure you would have pulled out the stack if this was the case.
Gary Lutman

Gary Lutman my kind of man, saying it like it is all the time!

Dont change Gary, not many like you still around!

Lutman = Gamble, heart and truth!

 

[scsuxci]

To sum up what I've read:
Dennis-one of the best players on the planet
Dennis-one of the best gamblers on the planet
Dennis-multiple championships all over the world
Dennis-has beaten players out of thousands
Dennis- is over the age of 10 and a grown adult
Dennis- got into a game he thought he could win
Dennis- couldn't take the heat when he finds out its not so easy.
Dennis- quits the set cause he feels he may lose and screws the other guy.

When I hear that Dennis ''got hustled'' is like Mike Tyson getting bullied.

 

[1 Lone Wolf]

The Claw !

No way is Rob a con-artist here. Dennis gives up spots all the time and mostly outruns them. Dennis is no naive player and didn't get scammed at all. He just matched up badly for a dime. Sometimes that happens when you are desperate for action and no one will play.

The action side of pool is it's own world and it's not "hustling" if you are negotiating a spot in a place where all the players are known gamblers. When the game is made though there is no "quit" clause. Dennis knows this. He simply had a brain fart and tried to pull a iggy move in front of a group of battle-hardened gamblers.

I read that Jay said Rob was playing with a funky bridge to hustle Dennis? Even if that were true what does that say about Dennis then? Did he then think that he was flat out stealing from a guy that could barely hold a cue? And for that matter the shaky bridge trick is the oldest one in the book and it's really embarassing if the world's best money player fell for the oldest trick in the book.

The set was for a measly $1000. Race to 15. Works our to be between $63 and $33 a game. Is it worth that for Rob to try and use amateur hustling tricks on Dennis? I mean really if that's the case then Rob would have lost the set by a wide margin and walked around the room "pissed off" offering to bet the farm and gotten a 10k or more bet down and then beat Orcullo.

Orcullo was simply on tilt mentally and made a bad call. The right move was to play it out with no moves and simply take the loss and move on. Somedays you're the car and somedays you're the bug. No shame in losing if you ended up giving up the nuts and can't outrun them, lots of shame in pulling up in the middle of a set because you're getting your nuts shot off.

Have you ever seen Strong Arm Johns claw bridge? This is when you put your hand flat on the table, then you raise your hand so your fingertips are touching the table. Then you slide your cue up under any 2 fingers you choose, you are literally holding the cue up between your fingers. Now if Rob would have used this approach, I bet Jay would have sent more cash. So then you have a big fat guy with a claw bridge, Guarantee you could have bet 2k. This means if the fat guy was a little smarter, he would have won $300. Does this make me twice as smart as the fat guy ??? No offense in any way Rob. lol!!!!!!!!!:thumbup:

 

[1 Lone Wolf]

Hear this !

I go to Cape Girardeau Mo in 2011. I make a game with Tony Fargo. We are playing 10 ahead even on a barbox. We start the match at about 9 pm. We agree to play until 6am. At this point we agree that we will pro-rate it. That is $300 per game. Tony is getting staked by the owner and the money is posted.

We are going back and forth until about 4am, at this point Tony gets on a run and gets 9 ahead of me. Now it is 5am and we are even. I just beat him 9 in a row and he unscrews his cue. I say Tony, you can't quit and he says ill sit on the toilet for an hour if you want me to. Tony knows I hit a gear and he was getting ready to be drilled. I look at his stakehorse and he says he cant make Tony play.

The money posted was 6k, the owner returned me 3k and it was over. The move didn't surprise me, for I have gambled many times with Tony, King of the moves. What do you do ? This is
exactly what happened, and the owner couldn't have been happier. Gary Lutman

 

[StonedCEO]

I go to Cape Girardeau Mo in 2011. I make a game with Tony Fargo. We are playing 10 ahead even on a barbox. We start the match at about 9 pm. We agree to play until 6am. At this point we agree that we will pro-rate it. That is $300 per game. Tony is getting staked by the owner and the money is posted.

We are going back and forth until about 4am, at this point Tony gets on a run and gets 9 ahead of me. Now it is 5am and we are even. I just beat him 9 in a row and he unscrews his cue. I say Tony, you can't quit and he says ill sit on the toilet for an hour if you want me to. Tony knows I hit a gear and he was getting ready to be drilled. I look at his stakehorse and he says he cant make Tony play.

The money posted was 6k, the owner returned me 3k and it was over. The move didn't surprise me, for I have gambled many times with Tony, King of the moves. What do you do ? This is
exactly what happened, and the owner couldn't have been happier. Gary Lutman

$ before pride is so pathetic, and short sighted. No pride, no integrity, tell me again why pool is dieing?

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

I go to Cape Girardeau Mo in 2011. I make a game with Tony Fargo. We are playing 10 ahead even on a barbox. We start the match at about 9 pm. We agree to play until 6am. At this point we agree that we will pro-rate it. That is $300 per game. Tony is getting staked by the owner and the money is posted.

We are going back and forth until about 4am, at this point Tony gets on a run and gets 9 ahead of me. Now it is 5am and we are even. I just beat him 9 in a row and he unscrews his cue. I say Tony, you can't quit and he says ill sit on the toilet for an hour if you want me to. Tony knows I hit a gear and he was getting ready to be drilled. I look at his stakehorse and he says he cant make Tony play.

The money posted was 6k, the owner returned me 3k and it was over. The move didn't surprise me, for I have gambled many times with Tony, King of the moves. What do you do ? This is
exactly what happened, and the owner couldn't have been happier. Gary Lutman

Thanks Gary for sharing your experience. It further illustrates (and relative to this thread) what is to be understood in pool on some levels.

We don't have to like it. It's a choice.

 

[Fatboy]

What are your thoughts about two players racing to, say, 15, and when the score is 8-8, one wants to quit because he doesn't like the game anymore?

As long as the game is tied, is it okay to end? If it was an ahead set, then I could maybe understand pulling up if nobody got ahead, but with a race to 15, what do you think if the score is, say, 8 to 8?

If its discussed before tee time and agreed upon then its fine. With my back the way it is I make that stipulation in ALL action, unless I dont know who i'm playing AND its cheap. then I dont care. If its not discussed then play-on until its over.

 

[Fatboy]

I go to Cape Girardeau Mo in 2011. I make a game with Tony Fargo. We are playing 10 ahead even on a barbox. We start the match at about 9 pm. We agree to play until 6am. At this point we agree that we will pro-rate it. That is $300 per game. Tony is getting staked by the owner and the money is posted.

We are going back and forth until about 4am, at this point Tony gets on a run and gets 9 ahead of me. Now it is 5am and we are even. I just beat him 9 in a row and he unscrews his cue. I say Tony, you can't quit and he says ill sit on the toilet for an hour if you want me to. Tony knows I hit a gear and he was getting ready to be drilled. I look at his stakehorse and he says he cant make Tony play.

The money posted was 6k, the owner returned me 3k and it was over. The move didn't surprise me, for I have gambled many times with Tony, King of the moves. What do you do ? This is
exactly what happened, and the owner couldn't have been happier. Gary Lutman

Same thing happened in Hollywood billiards a few years back-$5K wont say who was playing. dont matter. After the 3rd day one side pulled up when it was even. what can you do? thats a risk of a ahead set, the reason it happened was it should have been 8 not 12 in this case. 12 ahead is too long, even 10 on a 9' box is too long. IMO 8 ahead on a 9' and 10 on a 7' is the right length for ahead sets. and even then unless you close it out there is no guarantee you will get paid.

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

If its discussed before tee time and agreed upon then its fine. With my back the way it is I make that stipulation in ALL action, unless I dont know who i'm playing AND its cheap. then I dont care. If its not discussed then play-on until its over.

A deal is a deal. Period.

 

[1 Lone Wolf]

Rare.

Same thing happened in Hollywood billiards a few years back-$5K wont say who was playing. dont matter. After the 3rd day one side pulled up when it was even. what can you do? thats a risk of a ahead set, the reason it happened was it should have been 8 not 12 in this case. 12 ahead is too long, even 10 on a 9' box is too long. IMO 8 ahead on a 9' and 10 on a 7' is the right length for ahead sets. and even then unless you close it out there is no guarantee you will get paid.

It is rare that this happens, it is usually good to post with someone both parties agree on, in this case playing Tony in this location, I should have protected myself better. Do you think this would have went over well with the owner-stakehorse if I would have pulled this. lol ! I don't think I would have safely gotten out. I surely would not have got paid. My fault. Gary

 

[Tommy Joe]

To sum up what I've read:
Dennis-one of the best players on the planet
Dennis-one of the best gamblers on the planet
Dennis-multiple championships all over the world
Dennis-has beaten players out of thousands
Dennis- is over the age of 10 and a grown adult
Dennis- got into a game he thought he could win
Dennis- couldn't take the heat when he finds out its not so easy.
Dennis- quits the set cause he feels he may lose and screws the other guy.

When I hear that Dennis ''got hustled'' is like Mike Tyson getting bullied.

I don't know any of the people mentioned in this thread other than Jay a little bit from Hollywood Billiards. But I've followed the thread with interest. I enjoyed the back and forth between Jay and The Big Hurt. Even though I don't play and don't know the players involved, as perhaps the world's greatest judge I have reached a verdict on the matter.

I believe that if you lined up 100 judges equal to me in honesty and insight, even if they knew nothing about billiards, armed only with information gathered from this thread, they would all determine that the guy who quit even was at fault. He was at fault in the same way that a guy who goes through a red light trying to beat the yellow is guilty for hitting someone going through a green light trying to beat the red one.

My verdict is that the guy who pulled out even is guilty. He is the defendant in this case. The plaintiff wins the case but cannot leave my courtroom without a lecture, the nature of which states that sadly one more item must be added to the list of rules along with "put the money up" and "one foul, ball in hand", etc. It only takes a few seconds to add, "and no quitting even", to the list. Too bad it has come to that, but even if it happens only rarely, it's better to address it no matter who you're playing than to ignore it and deal with the consequences. So, my judgment stands - the guy who quit even is guilty - the guy who let it happen is not guilty but is equally responsible for letting it happen. Now get the hell out of my courtroom and don't let it happen again. It's time we start admitting our own responsibility in all matters.

The Honorable TJ

 

[yobagua]

Ok this is hilarious on one part. Dennis quits because he doesnt like the game hes in. Because he got trapped? Because the other guy has the edge?? But he lost all his money in the casino???
What??? In the Phillipines does the casino give the edge to the customers?? I dont think so. Every one with a brain knows the casinos have the edge and you are the sucker. Even when you can level the edge with something like card counting the Casino forbids you to play.
So this moron/champion will lose all his money to the casino and wont pay up on a mutual agreed bet. Shame on you Champion! You embarass the game and your countrymen.
You go back home and tell your backer Bugsy you lost all the money at the casino.
You go back and tell your family the casino broke you. Dont blame it on some tricks Americans created.

And this attacking the victim is a little weak. Mr Melrose can be forgiven for his anger for he is the aggrieved. Let me ask you if it happened to Jeannette Lee who won the Louis Roberts award for action play. Would you still make excuses for Dennis? I dont think so. Why cause Melrose is a "fat guy"? Or he is a con artist? Jeez what excuse will we make for St Orcullo next.

Let me ask you this. In poker the object is to win the money. To find the weakest players and outplay them. To look for flaws and pretend you have them yourself. To not climb the highest tree to get fruit, tho a top pro is able to, but to pick the lowest hanging fruit as well admirable? In gambling pool it should be the same. The man who wins the money wins.
Dennis didnt like that but you cant cry foul in a game that he has been excelling in.

 

[Diamond69]

I go to Cape Girardeau Mo in 2011. I make a game with Tony Fargo. We are playing 10 ahead even on a barbox. We start the match at about 9 pm. We agree to play until 6am. At this point we agree that we will pro-rate it. That is $300 per game. Tony is getting staked by the owner and the money is posted.

We are going back and forth until about 4am, at this point Tony gets on a run and gets 9 ahead of me. Now it is 5am and we are even. I just beat him 9 in a row and he unscrews his cue. I say Tony, you can't quit and he says ill sit on the toilet for an hour if you want me to. Tony knows I hit a gear and he was getting ready to be drilled. I look at his stakehorse and he says he cant make Tony play.

The money posted was 6k, the owner returned me 3k and it was over. The move didn't surprise me, for I have gambled many times with Tony, King of the moves. What do you do ? This is
exactly what happened, and the owner couldn't have been happier. Gary Lutman

How unfortunate! Everything agreed on with a quit time and still get screwed. I've never had one of these issues. Never played an ahead set because I was always concerned about it going on too long. Would always rather play race to sets for lesser cash and play as long as we agreed.

As this thread shows, that doesn't prevent the problem, but I think it does lessen the frequency.

 

[thebighurt]

Ok this is hilarious on one part. Dennis quits because he doesnt like the game hes in. Because he got trapped? Because the other guy has the edge?? But he lost all his money in the casino???
What??? In the Phillipines does the casino give the edge to the customers?? I dont think so. Every one with a brain knows the casinos have the edge and you are the sucker. Even when you can level the edge with something like card counting the Casino forbids you to play.
So this moron/champion will lose all his money to the casino and wont pay up on a mutual agreed bet. Shame on you Champion! You embarass the game and your countrymen.
You go back home and tell your backer Bugsy you lost all the money at the casino.
You go back and tell your family the casino broke you. Dont blame it on some tricks Americans created.

And this attacking the victim is a little weak. Mr Melrose can be forgiven for his anger for he is the aggrieved. Let me ask you if it happened to Jeannette Lee who won the Louis Roberts award for action play. Would you still make excuses for Dennis? I dont think so. Why cause Melrose is a "fat guy"? Or he is a con artist? Jeez what excuse will we make for St Orcullo next.

Let me ask you this. In poker the object is to win the money. To find the weakest players and outplay them. To look for flaws and pretend you have them yourself. To not climb the highest tree to get fruit, tho a top pro is able to, but to pick the lowest hanging fruit as well admirable? In gambling pool it should be the same. The man who wins the money wins.
Dennis didnt like that but you cant cry foul in a game that he has been excelling in.

Havent you heard.. Jay is a poker player.. play in World series of Poker events all the time.. Saint Jay has a unique style of play.. When a guy raises Jay preflop Jay goes all in.. then when the guy is getting ready to shove Jay says dont do that I have ACES and Jay shows the guy them.. Must be hard for Jay to do good at the poker table seeing how Jay would never bluff, deceive or hustle anyone as evidenced by this thread... Oh wait when Jay has the Aces (Jay has the BIH and the break) then the game is fine...

 

[1 Lone Wolf]

Ok

How unfortunate! Everything agreed on with a quit time and still get screwed. I've never had one of these issues. Never played an ahead set because I was always concerned about it going on too long. Would always rather play race to sets for lesser cash and play as long as we agreed.

As this thread shows, that doesn't prevent the problem, but I think it does lessen the frequency.

Ahead sets are good if you pro-rate and agree to play to a time agreed upon by both players.

 

[thebighurt]

No way is Rob a con-artist here. Dennis gives up spots all the time and mostly outruns them. Dennis is no naive player and didn't get scammed at all. He just matched up badly for a dime. Sometimes that happens when you are desperate for action and no one will play.

The action side of pool is it's own world and it's not "hustling" if you are negotiating a spot in a place where all the players are known gamblers. When the game is made though there is no "quit" clause. Dennis knows this. He simply had a brain fart and tried to pull a iggy move in front of a group of battle-hardened gamblers.

I read that Jay said Rob was playing with a funky bridge to hustle Dennis? Even if that were true what does that say about Dennis then? Did he then think that he was flat out stealing from a guy that could barely hold a cue? And for that matter the shaky bridge trick is the oldest one in the book and it's really embarassing if the world's best money player fell for the oldest trick in the book.

The set was for a measly $1000. Race to 15. Works our to be between $63 and $33 a game. Is it worth that for Rob to try and use amateur hustling tricks on Dennis? I mean really if that's the case then Rob would have lost the set by a wide margin and walked around the room "pissed off" offering to bet the farm and gotten a 10k or more bet down and then beat Orcullo.

Orcullo was simply on tilt mentally and made a bad call. The right move was to play it out with no moves and simply take the loss and move on. Somedays you're the car and somedays you're the bug. No shame in losing if you ended up giving up the nuts and can't outrun them, lots of shame in pulling up in the middle of a set because you're getting your nuts shot off.

This is the part where jay is talking out of both sides of his mouth and it really is unbelievable. Jays says i was shooting with an open bridge to trap Dennis purposely making myself look bad... Ok lets say that's the case for a second. So Dennis saw a big fat guy who couldn't make a ball and Saint Dennis and Saint Jay couldn't wait to steal that G note..BUT WAIT.. UH OH.. the big guy can play a little better than they thought. So if I was a cripple and Dennis would have robbed me then everything would have been fine. Jay would have been buying the drinks and the laughs would have been flowing...

 

[backplaying]

Im not sure I can top your situation Rob but I think I told you about the guy, that playing a race to 16, ran a 9 pack playing 10 ball and then quit winner after one set.
I actually had 2 Europeans beat me soundly with a big spot and quit after one set.
Is that the culture in Europe? Or foreign countries?

Cliff beat me 2 sets in a row at Tunica and quit.

 

[ideologist]

Cliff beat me 2 sets in a row at Tunica and quit.

I don't see a problem with that. I don't like to quit on people but I'll make it clear in advance if I only want to play 1 or 2 sets with someone.