Push-out decision process
- Thread starter Andrew Manning
- Start date
The problem with bumping the 4 is nobody is going to make you shoot from there. Both of those things you suggested are exactly what your opponent is going to do when he decides to shoot and you'll be even worse off.
If you are going to bump the 4, the just roll up to it and try to make any shots towards the 1 require cuing over it. That forces your opponent to elevate and only then are you likely to get it handed back to you. If you go that route, I hope you like your chances playing safe elevated over a ball better than the easy level-cue kick-safe I already mentioned.
Robert
I saw that as a possibilty but off the rail it would be VERY difficult. Easy to leak out and leave a shot.
A shot is a push out if and only if it is declared as such by the shooter on the shot immediately after a legal break. On a push out, two foul rules are suspended: "bad hit" and "no rail." In addition, no ball pocketed counts, and if the nine is pocketed it is spotted. The push out is the same as any other shot except for those factors.
I froze it on the rail as a best case scenario for your suggestion just to show it doesn't matter. I don't think being on the rail matters, since you would be hitting it high anyway in both versions I showed. Stun caroms are much less predictable than follow caroms because it's very difficult to get a perfect stun while a rolling ball always has the same follow spin/speed ratio causing a very consistent carom line.
I disagree. There is a wide margin of safety in both:
(1) Worst case in lagging behind the 4 is a tough 1-3 combo across the long diagonal, but the 4 cuts off a large portion of the table as long as you get anywhere close to it so the 1 will likely be hidden.
(2) Hiding behind the 6 and 9 there's only a tiny window between them and the hit on the 1 (which was sent cross table) would have to be perfect. Getting behind the 6 and 9 is a big easy half-ball hit.
If you doubt it, put it on the table exactly as diagrammed and try them. If you're not comfortable with these kinds of shots, try playing one pocket or three-cushion billiards.
Robert
oH, COME ON! Next you will be telling them it is possible to kick at balls with more in mind than just hitting them!
Back to the 3c Forum, Mr!!!!:smile:
oH, COME ON! Next you will be telling them it is possible to kick at balls with more in mind than just hitting them!
Aw, c'mon - don't tell me you missed the controversial kick-safe I suggested in my first reply!
Back to the 3c Forum, Mr!!!!:smile:
Shhhh...can't let 'em find out I was out mingling with the pool players again and playing on those tiny tables with holes where there's supposed to be corners.
Robert
Here's a general guideline to follow--never push out to where you don't know what you'll do if your opponent gives you the shot back.
I understand the push out concept. The only item confusing me was that canjun9092 made it appear that you could hit the lowest numbered ball and it would still be considered a push. Pooltchr seemed to acknowledge that point in his statement.
I was just trying to get proper clarification of his statement.
Push out to a really close jump shot, then practice those all day long. Not many people can jump a full ball at 5 inches, and if you can then youve got it made.
Fail.
I am not sure you could even slow roll the 3 and controll either ball, being elevated by the 4 and all.
Also, why put the CB closer to the 1?
Why leave the opponent the whole ball?
I disagree! Pushing out by hitting the 3 and leaving the cue ball on the side rail does:
Can't cut the 1 ball in the corner.
Can't bank the 1 ball in a pocket.
Your opponent can only cut the 1 ball behind the 8 (thin cut) and try and hook you. He could also bank the one ball and cross over the one ball to get the cue ball behind the 8 ball and the the one ball on the other side of the eight ball. These two safties can be done but they are not easy since you have to control the speed of both balls. Keep in mind that you left the cue ball on the side rail and that takes away alot of cue ball control since he can only hit it with follow (with any accruacy).
I don't like pushing out to shoot the one ball in the corner pocket (thin cut) since it would be easy to bank the ball up table and hook you behind the 8 ball.
Two things I always consider first is to leave them long and leave them on the rail. Long shots increase the odds of your opponent missing and leaving him on the rail makes position alot tougher on the next ball since he can only hit the cue ball with follow. Keep in mind when you roll out your goal is to get another shot without being hooked (after your opponent has taken your roll out - 95% of the time a good player will shoot when you roll out since he doesn't want you back to the table with a chance to win). Even if you don't have a shot if you can see the object ball you can play safe and hook your opponent.
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Aside from betraying one of your own principles, "...I always consider first is to leave them long...", I still think tying up balls and leaving CB at other end of table is best.
Pushig toward 3 has you executing a somewhat tougher shot- distance, jacked up- and a decent player is probably going to bank the 3 into the topR) corner, as the 2 is sitting in front of a hole and there are no other unmakeable balls. If not, being closer to the 1 is going to leave him with an easier safe, so you aren't going to shoot after that push.
Pushig toward 3 has you executing a somewhat tougher shot- distance, jacked up- and a decent player is probably going to bank the 3 into the topR) corner, as the 2 is sitting in front of a hole and there are no other unmakeable balls. If not, being closer to the 1 is going to leave him with an easier safe, so you aren't going to shoot after that push.
pushing & making balls
What if you push and make a ball, perhaps even the 1. Does it spot or does just the 9 spot on a "push-make"?
What if you push and make a ball, perhaps even the 1. Does it spot or does just the 9 spot on a "push-make"?
You can't always follow general principals. The only place to leave you opponent long is on the end rail straight in! Tying up balls is always a good idea to consider. I will always let my opponent shoot a long rail bank to win the game since he will miss it probably 75% of the time. Most of the pros will place safe instead of shooting a long rail bank on a 9 foot table (they will bank the ball to the middle of the end rail and hook you if possible).
I think that is great Jay but would like to add---Lock the cue ball and 4 ball up so the incoming player has to shoot over the 4 ball.
Tap the cb
If I understand correctly-that's why when 'pushing' you can lightly tap the cb with the ferrule, leaving the cb in place? since the foul rules are temporarily suspended while 'pushing'?
Am I mistaken about this 'tapping' being OK when pushing out?
CLARIFICATION PLEASE: Isn't it insufficient to 'declare' a push? Don't you need definite affirmation by the opponent that he has acknowledged your intention to push out? How many times have you seen your opponent pick up the cb and declare BIH after you 'missed'.
Thanks
3railkick
If I understand correctly-that's why when 'pushing' you can lightly tap the cb with the ferrule, leaving the cb in place? since the foul rules are temporarily suspended while 'pushing'?
Am I mistaken about this 'tapping' being OK when pushing out?
CLARIFICATION PLEASE: Isn't it insufficient to 'declare' a push? Don't you need definite affirmation by the opponent that he has acknowledged your intention to push out? How many times have you seen your opponent pick up the cb and declare BIH after you 'missed'.
Thanks
3railkick
You are mistaken. A legal push has to involve a legal stroke, which means hitting the CB with the tip, in a forward motion of the cue. Many people would not call you on the "ferrule tap", but it's not legal.
edit: One way to accomplish the same thing is to jack up, and touch the tip straight down onto the top of the CB. If you're delicate, you can do this without the CB moving at all, and it's a legal stroke.
I think you're right. I don't know how the rule is written, but all the good players I know will acknowledge when you call push, and will look for your acknowledgment when they call push.
-Andrew
If you played that push on me and left me shooting straight over the 4, I'd be happy to let you shoot it every time. It would be very very low percentage to get a decent outcome from there while shooting directly over a ball.
-Andrew