Question about Kinister's shot# 1

pmata814

pmata814

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Does anyone know why Kinsiter makes such a big deal about the CB taking the place of the OB on his Shot #1 of the 60 minute workout? Basically it's the CB and the OB 4 diamonds apart straight in to the corner pocket. He really emphasizes that it is critical that the CB take the place of the OB. That I should see the CB just barely roll over to take its place.

I understand the importance of the stop shot and I've been practicing that every day for the last month (except I line the shot up corner to corner 3 diamonds apart.). The whole tangent line principle stems from the stop shot, checking for unwanted sidespin, making sure you're perfectly in line... great practice for my stroke...I get that. But having the CB just barely roll over from 4 diamonds out is super tough for me. I shot it 80 times today and probably just had 4 or 5 succesful attempts. I don't mind putting in the work, I just want to know how it's supposed to be helping. Even he in his later videos keeps referring to "shot #1" and it's just a stop shot or a straight in shot. Never once performing the ball replacement.

Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

P.S.
To make things even harder, in his video he says this shot should be performed with center ball. NOT to use draw. I'm not even trying that part. I still use some slight draw on the CB because I'd really have to slam the CB with only center ball.
 
Last edited:
the CB slide zone that creates a stop shot is about a diamond wide.. meaning the cb is sliding with no spin for about 1 diamond of table travel.. before forward roll takes over


the replacement shot (Kinister 1) requires you own the very edge of that zone.. the point where a stop shot becomes a drag shot.. its a close cousin to the 2 inch draw...

if you train yourself to own those 3 shots ( stun , replacement, 2 inch draw) at every diamond distance ( balls 1 diamond apart, 2 diamonds apart ect.) you will have achieved mastery of stun, drag and draw..

"you don't own the slide zone until you can control the edges of the zone"

p.s. how low you hit the ball to achieve any of the above shots depends entirely upon how far apart the balls are.. the farther apart they are .. the lower you need to hit the ball to get the same effect..
 
Last edited:
pmata814...Personally I disagree that the replacement shot is more important than the stop shot. The times you will need a perfect stop shot, or are shooting a tangent line stun shot, are 100-1 over the times you'll need a perfect replacement shot. Perfect the stop shot the way you're doing it. Be sure to use hole reinforcements and a string or laser to insure a perfect straight line into the middle of the pocket opening. Stop worrying about the replacement shot. Nobody, not even Kinister himself, can shot that shot 10 or 20 times in a row. Any respectable player with an accurate and repeatable stroke, should be able to shoot varying distance stop shots quite accurately, on demand, under pressure, in one try! :grin:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

pmata814 said:
I understand the importance of the stop shot and I've been practicing that every day for the last month (except I line the shot up corner to corner 3 diamonds apart.). The whole tangent line principle stems from the stop shot, checking for unwanted sidespin, making sure you're perfectly in line... great practice for my stroke...I get that. But having the CB just barely roll over from 4 diamonds out is super tough for me.

I shot it 80 times today and probably just had 4 or 5 succesful attempts. I don't mind putting in the work, I just want to know how it's supposed to be helping. Even he in his later videos keeps referring to "shot #1" and it's just a stop shot or a straight in shot. Never once performing the ball replacement.

Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

P.S.
To make things even harder, in his video he says this shot should be performed with center ball. NOT to use draw. I'm not even trying that part. I still use some slight draw on the CB because I'd really have to slam the CB with only center ball.
Click to expand...
 
Scott Lee said:
pmata814...Personally I disagree that the replacement shot is more important than the stop shot. The times you will need a perfect stop shot, or are shooting a tangent line stun shot, are 100-1 over the times you'll need a perfect replacement shot. Perfect the stop shot the way you're doing it. Be sure to use hole reinforcements and a string or laser to insure a perfect straight line into the middle of the pocket opening. Stop worrying about the replacement shot. Nobody, not even Kinister himself, can shot that shot 10 or 20 times in a row. Any respectable player with an accurate and repeatable stroke, should be able to shoot varying distance stop shots quite accurately, on demand, under pressure, in one try! :grin:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

Amen!

Agree 100% with Scott- had also several discussions with players/students about this. Sure it s nice if you *would* be able to play it perfectly also (the replacement shot)-but it s by far not as important as a stop shot :-)

lg
Ingo
 
Shot #1

I shot the shot #1 many times. Many times, until I could do it successfully. Why not ask Mr. Kinister? I never once questioned why I was shooting the shot. It was part of a lesson.

I found that it really helped my stroke. It makes you follow through, instead of just popping the cue ball with a center ball, I feel. It also helps develop finesse.

There are times you need to let the ball roll forward just a bit, and this exercise will help you achieve that.

I thought the 60 Minute Workout was the best thing since sliced bread when I got the tape. lol

Just an opinion.
 
Last edited:
Ratta said:
Amen!

Agree 100% with Scott- had also several discussions with players/students about this. Sure it s nice if you *would* be able to play it perfectly also (the replacement shot)-but it s by far not as important as a stop shot :-)

lg
Ingo
Click to expand...

there is more to it than that... I agree you need to learn the stop shot "FIRST"

but once you master that .. one must up the difficulty or practice ceases to be effective.. if you only practice those things that you have mastered... you are no longer practicing... you are just showing off..

phase 1 master the stop shot..

phase 2 learn the edges of the slide zone and master both..

phase 3 learn the edges of the slide zone with sidespin

phase 4 master sqwerve as it relates shot speed, slide zone, and applied spin

phase 5 master all of the above with varying conditions

phase 6 make SVB cry at witnessing your mastery of all of the above...

there is always a next step...

I am a huge SPF booster.. but sometimes your marketing over simplifies things...

just sayin
 
The purpose of the replacement shot is NOT for the positional options it offers. Though that is a beneficial side effect, the real purpose is to develop a feel for striking the CENTER of the cue ball. Gaining an appreciation for the feeling of stroking through the center of mass is a very useful thing. It is exactly analogous to the concept of position being built around the stop shot. Once you can really feel center ball, you can appreciate the slight differences in striking slightly above or below, or FAR above and below the center. Likewise for left and right english. The awareness of the center of the ball promotes an awareness for the feeling of spinning the ball around that center. If you watch the tape again, he specifically mentions *why* he thinks the shot is important. He says it will create a stroke where there is none. He says that he thinks you should be very familiar with the feeling of striking the center of the ball.

I agree with Burt here. The stop shot is clearly the best shot to master from a purely positional standpoint, but his shot # 1 is highly valuable for getting a feel for how it feels to strike the cueball in the center, and spin it. I think this shot goes a long way toward taking one from a methodical, analytical approach, and elevating them to a more intuitive, feel based approach.

If nothing else, it allows you to practice hitting the ball in a precise spot. This is certainly valuable across the board. If you hit true center ball, you must strike this shot fairly firmly, and I think it is great for developing a smooth, powerful, and above all accurate stroke.

My $0.02 (and man, I need to get that "tape" on DVD haha!)

KMRUNOUT
 
softshot said:
there is more to it than that... I agree you need to learn the stop shot "FIRST"

but once you master that .. one must up the difficulty or practice ceases to be effective.. if you only practice those things that you have mastered... you are no longer practicing... you are just showing off..

phase 1 master the stop shot..

phase 2 learn the edges of the slide zone and master both..

phase 3 learn the edges of the slide zone with sidespin

phase 4 master sqwerve as it relates shot speed, slide zone, and applied spin

phase 5 master all of the above with varying conditions

phase 6 make SVB cry at witnessing your mastery of all of the above...

there is always a next step...

I am a huge SPF booster.. but sometimes your marketing over simplifies things...

just sayin
Click to expand...

I totally agree. The stop shot has been a piece of cake from all distances since my first year. I have shot Burt's shot #1 many many times and I got a lot out of it. I do think though that he shoots it just a hair below center.
 
I always thought it was a pretty awesome skill to have...makes stun shots, kill shots and drag shots come together once you figure out true center ball hit and the slide zone for various distances. Just trying to do the four diamond replacement shot and getting it 3 out of 10 times reliably is worth the effort put into it!
 
softshot said:
there is more to it than that... I agree you need to learn the stop shot "FIRST"

but once you master that .. one must up the difficulty or practice ceases to be effective.. if you only practice those things that you have mastered... you are no longer practicing... you are just showing off..

phase 1 master the stop shot..

phase 2 learn the edges of the slide zone and master both..

phase 3 learn the edges of the slide zone with sidespin

phase 4 master sqwerve as it relates shot speed, slide zone, and applied spin

phase 5 master all of the above with varying conditions

phase 6 make SVB cry at witnessing your mastery of all of the above...

there is always a next step...

I am a huge SPF booster.. but sometimes your marketing over simplifies things...

just sayin
Click to expand...

I am no member of the SPF family-- but for sure looking up for Randy Goettlicher for example. What did i write that you say i would *marketing over a simplified thing* ? :confused:
I m a believer of a smooth transition, of a few *must haves* in your fundamentals- furthermore i have 100% the strong opinion that not everything works for every human. And so i would also call it senseless to make a list to follow. Each students learns different. Each coach/instructor works different. There cannot be a straight sequence to follow like your listing.

If i am working with a student right from the beginning he will usualy see and shoot each type of shot- of course not repeatable over and over again. But i let him/her play shots where they learn and understand what they re doing. And this replacement shot happens especially often when *beginners* or *less skilled* players are doing stopshot drills. They happen accidently first-but they will understand fast if you explain them what they did. I know many ppl are praying *just to hit thousands of balls*- that s not my thing. I prefer that my student 100% understands what i want him to do. And i will always try to handle it this way. In my opinion knowledge is pure power-and not hidden secret.

lg
Ingo
 
I guess the first thing you will have to do, is choose who you are going to listen to. The first thing i'll say, it doesn't matter what shot gets used more, that isn't what makes it important. The reason he harps on that shot like crazy is a good one (and I think you ask a great question because he isn't really clear on it imo). That shot alone pretty much gets a player to where they are in control of their stroke. If you let up on that stroke, or if you stroke through it too "well" neither gets the desired results. Stop shots are relative hangers (stroke wise). So, short answer is, that shot is training your stroke to be under control, and it also serves as a strong basis for other similar shots if you know it well (eg going 2 balls forward). It serves you in arguably every shot you shoot because it teaches you you CANT let up on strokes, or over stroke. you have to be in perfect control and do it confidently. It therefore helps you tremendously in both control of the cb and shotmaking. I agree with bert 100% on the shot's importance :) but, if you want to listen to other posters and go work on stop shots all day because they are "more important" that is fine with me :) And believe me when i say you can most definitely shoot that shot 10 or 20 times in a row, VERY accurately... perfection is tough when doing 20, but definitely attainable.
 
Last edited:
KMRUNOUT said:
The purpose of the replacement shot is NOT for the positional options it offers. Though that is a beneficial side effect, the real purpose is to develop a feel for striking the CENTER of the cue ball. Gaining an appreciation for the feeling of stroking through the center of mass is a very useful thing. It is exactly analogous to the concept of position being built around the stop shot. Once you can really feel center ball, you can appreciate the slight differences in striking slightly above or below, or FAR above and below the center. Likewise for left and right english. The awareness of the center of the ball promotes an awareness for the feeling of spinning the ball around that center. If you watch the tape again, he specifically mentions *why* he thinks the shot is important. He says it will create a stroke where there is none. He says that he thinks you should be very familiar with the feeling of striking the center of the ball.

I agree with Burt here. The stop shot is clearly the best shot to master from a purely positional standpoint, but his shot # 1 is highly valuable for getting a feel for how it feels to strike the cueball in the center, and spin it. I think this shot goes a long way toward taking one from a methodical, analytical approach, and elevating them to a more intuitive, feel based approach.

If nothing else, it allows you to practice hitting the ball in a precise spot. This is certainly valuable across the board. If you hit true center ball, you must strike this shot fairly firmly, and I think it is great for developing a smooth, powerful, and above all accurate stroke.

My $0.02 (and man, I need to get that "tape" on DVD haha!)

KMRUNOUT
Click to expand...


+1

I have probably shot this shot a thousand times. In my opinion, this shot is all about feel. Feeling yourself turn the QB over 1/2 turn and replacing the OB is something and, for me, not easy to put into words. Its the feeling you get in your grip hand (craddle).

To this day I still line all 15 balls across the table and shoot them into the corner pockets everyday at least 3 times (45 balls). This is a practice that allows me to perfect the fundementals and to develope a stroke based on feel of the OB with my grip hand. If your not feeling the shot, your grip is too tight.

John
 
Last edited:
I didn't read the entire post, but I think Kinister told me the replacement shot was to help with average pocketing speed, on all shots. Also, because of the roundness of your tip, true center ball, is actually hitting a hair below perceived center.

Christian
 
I think that Burt has achieved his goal here.
1. Concentrate on a task.
2. Focus on the cause/result.

That's what Practice is all about.

Is the replacement shot useful? It is if you know how & when to use it.
randyg
 
Stop shots from any distance require almost no skill whatsoever. Sure, they're important for positional play---but skill-wise, they don't rank very high and require just a basic stroke.

The replacement shot requires tons of skill and is designed as a stroke builder. That's why he said, "If you can't do this, we can't continue to the other tapes."

NOT because of positioning, but in order for you to execute the advanced drills in the following tapes, you have to have a jam-up stroke.

I always liked Softshot's answer to the shot#1 question that pops up every few months. He's absolutely right.

The 2" draw (from a distance) and replacement shot (from a distance) is required for FINE position play (usually 1p or 14.1).

Stop shot = basic skill (important for position, but basic)
Replacement shot = advanced skill (important for stroke, advanced level)
 
Thanks so much for all the responses! Let me ask this now...he says that u HAVE to hit center ball. That would mean the CB has to slide a distance of 4 diamonds. Wouldn't you have to pummel the CB in order to achieve that? I'm pretty sure the OB would rattle out at that speed, and angle.

I've always read that as your distance to the OB increases you have to hit lower on the CB so the backward spin turns into slide, then forward roll, as you strike the OB.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9780 using Tapatalk
 
Agenda

The shot is in a workout designed to create a stroke. All of the workouts have skill set agendas as a byproduct
 
It always seemed like I'm hitting it with one half tip draw when successfully pulling it off...but I could be wrong. He insists it's a center ball hit. It requires a pretty quick stroke at four diamonds, but I wouldn't say it's "hard" (I know, doesn't sound like there's a difference, but there is...it's more about acceleration of the stroke and follow through than power).
 
Well, speed of stroke or power, bottom line... the CB needs to be stroked with a lot of speed at 4 diamonds right? I'm practicing on an 8 ft table. I don't know what size table he's using but it looks awful small. That's one of the things that really bugs me about his videos. I can't get a true sense of the speed of stroke because he's using such a small table. I also think the table length draw he demonstrates on another one of his videos can be achieved with a slower stroke than on an 8 footer. At 4 diamonds apart I can only draw back about half ways. But that's a topic for a seperate thread :)

Sent from my BlackBerry 9780 using Tapatalk
 
pmata814 said:
Does anyone know why Kinsiter makes such a big deal about the CB taking the place of the OB on his Shot #1 of the 60 minute workout? Basically it's the CB and the OB 4 diamonds apart straight in to the corner pocket. He really emphasizes that it is critical that the CB take the place of the OB. That I should see the CB just barely roll over to take its place.

I understand the importance of the stop shot and I've been practicing that every day for the last month (except I line the shot up corner to corner 3 diamonds apart.). The whole tangent line principle stems from the stop shot, checking for unwanted sidespin, making sure you're perfectly in line... great practice for my stroke...I get that. But having the CB just barely roll over from 4 diamonds out is super tough for me. I shot it 80 times today and probably just had 4 or 5 succesful attempts. I don't mind putting in the work, I just want to know how it's supposed to be helping. Even he in his later videos keeps referring to "shot #1" and it's just a stop shot or a straight in shot. Never once performing the ball replacement.

Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

P.S.
To make things even harder, in his video he says this shot should be performed with center ball. NOT to use draw. I'm not even trying that part. I still use some slight draw on the CB because I'd really have to slam the CB with only center ball.
Click to expand...

I think the goal of this shot is to fine tune your control. If you can master that shot it will boost your confidence and your short control of the cue ball will be sharp as a razor.
Personally I don't think the replacement shot comes up but once in a blue moon but the skill gained from practicing it is used every time you play.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top