Question/advice about turning pro.

Southpaw said:
I knew that was coming so I edited my previous post...please re-read.

Southpaw


You should play pool because it's fun and you should want to get better simply because being great at something is awesome. THAT should be your goal. If one day, you wake up and realize you can make a decent living at it, fine. Go for it. But with pool in its current state, that day is NOT in the foreseeable future.

See, a lot of the the pros I know are guys you've never heard of. I've known guys who end up as garbage men, homeless, drugs. Dude, it's no fun at all. You keep looking at Johnny and thinking anybody can do it.
 
inside_english said:
Is 40 too late to try to turn pro?
I know the life of a pro pool player is difficult, but I can't seem to get job satisfaction anymore in my current vocation.
I say...try to look for another job.

And I completely agree with Bruin. Based on your current speed, it would be ludicrous to even think about turning pro. Unless you honestly believe you can beat Efren every time you face him on the pool table, there is no way anyone should ever consider turning pro exclusively.

Again, find another job that would give you more enjoyment, and keep the pool playing at nights and weekends when you're not working. You'll be most happy following this route.
 
401k

Jude Rosenstock said:
You know, it's funny you should mention retirement. I was just reviewing my 401k contributions, making usual considerations - should I contribute more? How much can I afford? Is my portfolio diverse enough, etc. Seriously, the idea of not having something like that is frightening. Any illness, any problem and you're bust and as you get older, the illnesses get more serious and the problems get more expensive.


Jude,

A 401K is a wonderful thing to give you a false sense of security. Then someday you bump into the real world and discover that stand alone health insurance for you and your wife is well over a thousand a month if you can get it. If you have a serious accident or medical problem you will pay at a much higher rate than the insurance companies or medicare pays until you are busted just as flat as the bum on the street too.

A few numbers for you:

My pressure went up due to some med's I took a few years ago and my pump was squeaking a bit. Twenty-three hours in the hospital, bill over 30K.

I had a major but by no means the most expensive back operation done early this year, over $200K and still counting. It did more harm than good so now they need to do more work. Any refund? Warranty? At least a little discount? Any doctors or hospital administrators reading this are hurting themselves laughing at the thought!

Cost per year of my prescription med's, over $50K

A friend of mine was hit head on by a drunk driver and spent six months in intensive care. Fortunately he was a federal employee on the payroll at the time because I think congress passed a special spending bill to cover that little deal.

How is your 401K looking now?

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
Jude,

A 401K is a wonderful thing to give you a false sense of security. Then someday you bump into the real world and discover that stand alone health insurance for you and your wife is well over a thousand a month if you can get it. If you have a serious accident or medical problem you will pay at a much higher rate than the insurance companies or medicare pays until you are busted just as flat as the bum on the street too.

A few numbers for you:

My pressure went up due to some med's I took a few years ago and my pump was squeaking a bit. Twenty-three hours in the hospital, bill over 30K.

I had a major but by no means the most expensive back operation done early this year, over $200K and still counting. It did more harm than good so now they need to do more work. Any refund? Warranty? At least a little discount? Any doctors or hospital administrators reading this are hurting themselves laughing at the thought!

Cost per year of my prescription med's, over $50K

A friend of mine was hit head on by a drunk driver and spent six months in intensive care. Fortunately he was a federal employee on the payroll at the time because I think congress passed a special spending bill to cover that little deal.

How is your 401K looking now?

Hu

Sigh, my point is it's money. It's money, it's savings, it's retirement. How many pro players have the same?
 
no guarantee

Jude Rosenstock said:
Sigh, my point is it's money. It's money, it's savings, it's retirement. How many pro players have the same?


Jude,

You are too smart and knowledgeable a man not to see my point too. The 401K is something but it can disappear like a puff of smoke too. I have been what over 90% of this board would consider well off a few times. Life took a couple of bad turns that were beyond my control and I was busted back to square one. At forty the OP can blow some time and money deciding if he has what it takes to be a pro if he chooses. Odds are against anyone having what it takes but nobody knows until they try.

As sorry as things are in the pool world now, I think a smart shortstop level player can make a living at it without gambling. It takes work, planning, and smarts, but it could be done. If you are willing to gamble and smart, things are much easier. There are enough people around that want to take on tough competition that you can pad tournament winnings nicely with no real risk.

I will take time to clarify the statement about "no real risk" to save us both an extra post. No more than two or three out of ten of these players will beat a shortstop level player in a given month, probably not that many. There is no risk that you will come out on the short end of the stick at the end of the month if you keep the bets with such people fairly even.
Hu
 
Turning pro?

Economically speaking, it wouldn't make much sense. As previously mentioned, expenses are difficult to overcome, unless you can sell yourself to a sponsor. The amount of time you would have to devote to keeping your game competitive would be enormous.

BUT ... with all that said, if you already made your fortune and want to go out and see what it's all about, go for it! That's what I'd do, at age 50!!

WARNING

Most of us enjoy our time at the table for the entertainment value. If we decided to turned pro, we might start looking at the game as if was a job. I'm not sure most of us would want that. If you decide to do it, let us know what you find.
 
My question is what do you consider a pro? Where are you going to make your income? Tournaments? Gambling? Many of the current top pro's have other streams of income such as giving lessons, owning poolrooms, etc. Endorsements are difficult to obtain. Also, there are no benefits. Just like owning your own business, you will have to buy insurance, contribute to retirement, etc. or not have any of these benefits. I'll offer a couple of suggestions. First, treat it like a business and develop a business plan. Figure out how much your expenses will be to travel and play tournaments. The numbers may open your eyes to the difficulty of being a pro. Second, work on your game with the goal of developing into a top amateur. Give yourself a year to work on your game in your spare time. Play in tournaments on the weekends and practice during the week. See if you can develop your game. If you can't win at the amateur level then being pro isn't an option.

Darryl
 
dardusm said:
My question is what do you consider a pro? Where are you going to make your income? Tournaments? Gambling? Many of the current top pro's have other streams of income such as giving lessons, owning poolrooms, etc. Endorsements are difficult to obtain. Also, there are no benefits. Just like owning your own business, you will have to buy insurance, contribute to retirement, etc. or not have any of these benefits. I'll offer a couple of suggestions. First, treat it like a business and develop a business plan. Figure out how much your expenses will be to travel and play tournaments. The numbers may open your eyes to the difficulty of being a pro. Second, work on your game with the goal of developing into a top amateur. Give yourself a year to work on your game in your spare time. Play in tournaments on the weekends and practice during the week. See if you can develop your game. If you can't win at the amateur level then being pro isn't an option.

Darryl
All good advice. Johnnyt
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
It's totally illogical.

It's the same as asking a group of people, "Do you think I should try jumping off the Brooklyn Bridge? I've jumped off things before."

There's a very good chance you won't even come close but everybody here is going to tell you to try anyway. I mean, if you're even thinking about it, I don't see why you bother asking us because obviously, logic means nothing to you.

Personally, I love being the weekend warrior. I love amateur status because I can play in anything and I don't think about my rent when I lose. Considering that even the top 20 professionals have a hard time making a living, I cannot fathom why ANYBODY would want to go pro unless they were reasonably certain they could be dominant.


Enjoy your jump. I hope the water is nice. Good luck.

Thank goodness someone said this. 40 years old and an average pool player, I would never ever ever recommend someone quit their job and follow their pool dream. No way, no how. Keep the $$$ coming in from a job, practice 5-6 more hours per day, get the table at your house, play tournaments and match up. I think you will realize soon that you are not one of the top 20 people in the world.

Then, go read Fatboy's post about one of the top pool players in the country just barely surviving. I hope you realize that unless you can get to that level, you will be lower then their income (hence barely able to survive).

Anyway, my $0.03.. (CDN Dollar has gone up :) )

Take care and think long and hard about the reality of the financial potential in the pool world.

If however you want to be a poker player, do the opposite of my advice.. LOL, just kidding... sort of.
 
The Low-cost Method

Move to Brunei.
Become the Prince's practice partner.
Tag along to competitions.

And Never Beat Him In Public
 
Snorks said:
Anyway, my $0.03.. (CDN Dollar has gone up :) )
If the Canadian Dollar is up, you should only have to throw in $0.01 (assuming a Canadian cent).
 
I'm sorry but I think it is important to be realistic. IMO, yes, 40 is too old. You are talking about competing at a level that does not just require a skill, you already admit you do not have, but also experience, stamina and a huge amount of knowledge. Most of these guys have been playing since they were teenagers and have spent years preparing.

Even if you were a very good A player, it would not be easy to make this transition and from what you described, you sound more like a C. You might very well be able to raise the level of your game but it would take years and a full time commitment. Even then, I just do not think you can walk into a pro event with no experience and expect not to be eaten alive.

I understand your wanting to make a living from something you enjoy but as Jude said, unless you can beat the very best, this is not a career that offers much financial return. You also must be marketable. A lot of the top pros make a big portion of their income from sponsors. It is also can be pretty costly to travel too and enter these events.

When I lived in NY, there was a guy that quit his job to try and "go pro". He was a 6 in APA and a C player on the tri-state tour. He spent everyday at the pool hall for maybe a year or more. He never even made it to a "B"! I have to say, there was a lot people laughing behind his back. He really did not have a clue as to what it really took.

I certainly do not want to throw a wet blanket onto anyone's dream but the truth is, in life, only a few lucky people get to do something they really love, for a living. Most have to settle for making a living so they can afford to do what they really love.
 
inside_english said:
Is 40 too late to try to turn pro?
I know the life of a pro pool player is difficult, but I can't seem to get job satisfaction anymore in my current vocation.

I have some idea of what it would take...

1. Money in the bank during the "lean" times (which applies to life in general)

2. New shooting equipment
3. Possible table at home
4. Serious lessons
5. Practice daily
6. Playing in many tournaments

A little about me...I am an "average" player. I have never run more than 50 balls in 14.1, and I broke and ran 3 racks of 9-ball a few times in my life. I have been playing "off/on" for 20 years, but have never won anything major, and I have engaged in friendly wagers as well, no "serious" gambling. (I have never bet more than $300 on a game or set in my life).
I have been told by many that I have a great stroke...but so what if I don't win!

I also don't play more than twice a month, which would obviously have to change if I decide to take this path.

Feedback appreciated.

It completely depends on your circumstances BUT
Id say 40 isnt too old to have a go at becoming a professional as an american pool player! My personal opinion given your current standard is not to give up your job just yet! possibibly seek new employement but something thats guarenteed pay for the next few years while practicing(the perfect job wud to become a manager of a pool hall ;) )
IMHO it will probably take you at least a yr or 2 of hard work to get to a standard to compete and then a hard season playing before you'll settle(As not many pro's make an impact in there first year, unless there one of the ones who just fit in well or are special) So thats about 4 yrs!!

Invest in a house table if possible and try practice a few hours every day, then at least once every two weeks spend two hours working with a coach/ instructor to analyse etc etc etc your game! Play local tournaments for the first month or two, see how you do etc etc, then look at going further a field, set yourself targets and look to constantly improve them. Then when you feel ready test yourself, enter the major opens see how you do! treat it as a learning experience!! take notes see what could be improved etc etc.

At the end of the day its your decision!!! If its what you really want to do then go for it because anything is possible, follow your heart but prepare well first and work hard!!! Its something i now say to myself!

4 years ago i had a few coaches offering their services to me in an attempt to go down a professional snooker route but I thought it was better to get an education and opted out to go to university as that would be something to fall back on. I do consider it a MISTAKE but i did learn and grew up a considerable amount at university so maybe thats the reason for my attitude now. Not willing to settle for second best or to do something i wouldnt be happy in!

To let ya know i come from 140+ snooker backround (144 highest) but didnt have the belief in myself that i could be something at that time(history)! Which is mad come to think of now lol!

Im seriously considering giving it a shot or going down the american pool route myself as I can be considered pretty dangerous on an american pool table if i can produce what i used too having fun on a american table (14-1 highest run 230 something , (9 ball) run 7+ in a row quite a few times) but as i havent seriously practiced in years i think it would take myself a year of hard work in either before id wanna be going head to head with the big boys!

Neways all the best in what ever you do in the future

R114
 
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Southpaw said:
Before committing 100% to the "Pro" pool player life, I suggest you play in some big open events and see how you fare against stiff competition. See what its like living on the road and traveling and all that goes along with it before you jump all the way in. JMO.

Southpaw

Good advice.
 
I would suggest that you keep practicing until you have a few 100 ball runs in 14.1 and can put 4 and 5 racks together consistenly in nine ball. When you get to that level no matter what age you are then you'll be ready. Until then don't quit your day job.
 
Keep your day job but....

Play everyday as many hours a day as you can possibly play and do EVERYTHING you can think of to get better. After several years of dedicating your life to your game you will have had a great time, assuming you really love pool, and you will have improved your skill level tremendously.

As those years of play/work/fun have gone by you will have learned whether you can play with the big boys. You can't make that decision now. You can only decide to play today and decide today how hard you want to work at it today. It's always about today.

So, for today, if you love to play pool, then go play some pool and WORK on your game.

Edit: I don't see where you mentioned anything about the committments you've made in life up to this time. Are you in a committed relationship? Any children for whom you have assumed responsibility? If there are children then they MUST come first and anything you want will have to wait.
 
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inside_english said:
Is 40 too late to try to turn pro?
I know the life of a pro pool player is difficult, but I can't seem to get job satisfaction anymore in my current vocation.


A little about me...I am an "average" player. I have never run more than 50 balls in 14.1, and I broke and ran 3 racks of 9-ball a few times in my life. I have been playing "off/on" for 20 years, but have never won anything major, and I have engaged in friendly wagers as well, no "serious" gambling.

I also don't play more than twice a month, which would obviously have to change if I decide to take this path.

Feedback appreciated.


Well, it depends. I agree with the responders who say "follow your dream", and "go for it", IF it really is a burning desire for you.

But, I'm going to offer two points. One is feedback for you, which is admittedly based only on what I know of you from your post. The second is an observation about skill and talent and hard work.

1. I feel that your desire to be pro would have to be VERY LARGE in order to a: be successful, and b: to tolerate the potential hardships of the lifestyle. I mean that the desire to play would burn in you and keep you awake nights dreaming about it. Now here's the feedback... I don't mean to be harsh, but you don't seem to be all that interested in pool. If you had the desire that I'm describing, you would already be playing and practicing for hours every day on your home table or you would be spending hours in a local room practicing and competing. I know, you haven't made it a priority yet and you are considering a larger commitment, but those who really have the drive FIND A WAY no matter what their life situation may be.

2. Contrary to the stories in sappy movies and grade school readers, there is a large aspect of natural talent to skill sports, and if you don't have the talent no amount of dedication or hard work will get you to the elite level. Except in very rare cases, you either have the potential or you don't. It takes a huge amount of work to get there even if you HAVE the talent. Getting there through hard work without the high level of natural skill is almost impossible.

On both of these points I am speaking from direct experience, not in pool, but in water skiing. I compete in slalom at the higher end of the amateur level. I'm forty-four and I've been at it for almost 20 years. To this day, I can lay awake nights dreaming about my next set (yes we call them sets too!) I am absolutely nuts about the sport and I have set my life up to accommodate this.

On the other side of the coin, when I started I displayed a very high level of talent, but over the years I plateaued. Believe me, I have the desire and commitment. I drove 120 miles round trip to the training facility four - five days/week for years (often AFTER a full work day). I keep very fit. I strength train in the off season. I haven't eaten butter on a potato or biscuit more than a handful of times in years. I have spent a lot of money on professional instruction. I could go on and on but you get the picture. The bad news is, I just don't seem to be as talented as the elite athletes, and it's quite possible that I never will be. Make no mistake, I'm very good, but just like in pool there's a huge difference between "very good" and professional. That's a hard fact to accept, but it's reality. It's not necessarily an age thing either, some of the elite athletes in my sport are my age and older.

Only you can assess whether you feel you have the raw ability or not, but even if you do have the talent, you'd better have a burning desire and motivation to practice MANY hours a day to develop the skill that would even marginally support you financially.

It's also true that nothing was ever achieved by a man who believed it was impossible. That's why I've used words like "extremely difficult" and "very rare" instead of "impossible" and "never". Just about anything is possible, but it's important to be firmly grounded and honest with yourself.

Good luck in whatever you choose to do.
Tom
 
40 is too old? I'm glad nobody said that to Mike Lebron or Cowboy Jummy Moore. :rolleyes:

Never allow anybody to keep you from from attaining your goals.

My advice is to keep your job, play in some regional events and slowly move your way up the ladder. Many of the guys you will play on the pro tour will play in the open regional events. Find a RESPONSIBLE travel partner to help split the cost of traveling and lodging.Start on the local and regional level and slowly progress towards where you want to go. If it doesn't work out, you still have your job to fall back on.

I would also recommend practicing with a player that plays pro speed. Commit to helping each other improve. Above all else, remember that anything is possible. In 1992, Tommy Kennedy won the US Open by beating the #1 ranked player in the world (Johnny Archer) TWICE - he also beat Rempe, Hall, Lebron, Bustamante, and he was unseeded and only on the pro tour for about 3 months. Nobody outside of Florida had heard of him before showed up at the Open that year. Miracles happen when you believe in yourself and block out all of the people that try to discourage you. Best of luck!
 
Can you name a top pro that came on the tour at forty or older Black Jack? Not one that started at 20 and is 40 now.Johnnyt
 
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