Question for old timers@

flyvirginiaguy said:
Not a lot of history out there about the original man behind these, but I have gathered that there are two types of Champion tips. The Chandivert (that came later) and those before Chandivert (the much better of the two). I have played a lot with both.

Chandivert
FPhu0QD.jpg


Older tips below. I have searched and secured 3 boxes of these over the years, as I love them that much :LOL: Best tips I have ever used. Once I install them on my shafts, I use some black fiebings dye on the burnished sidewall. This makes them black (obviously) and completely alleviates any mushrooming while not effecting the tip/hit at all. They do have a distinct hit and sound to them. I can understand why these had much love by players of the time, not so for the Chandivert. They last a VERY long time on a shaft as they never get any glazing/hardness and hold chalk without tools grinding them down.

The original poster asked what was on the cues of the old timers back then, it was these.
lqzfSga.jpg
Click to expand...
Yep, not a lot of information on the older Champion tips. I wish I had saved it, but I know I read an old article in one of the pool magazines that the French guy who did them buried them in his back yard to do part or all of the tanning. Maybe an urban legend, I can't confirm it or deny it.

The older Champions you reference were way better than the later Chandivert brand. I didn't think much of the later Chandiverts, whether Champion, Crown, or Match. However, their Rocky tips, their hardest, were actually good.

The older Champion tips had two distinct periods. One, a gray box, and two, a white box with staples on the corners. The earlier ones in the gray box were a bit softer but broke in well. The ones in the white box with stapes started out harder. Both were good. They will never be made again.

1731458759436.jpeg
 
Bob Jewett said:
It was about 1810. It turns out that it had been tried before but he perfected the process somehow.
Click to expand...
Bob, if you remember the crossed mace implements above my billiard room door, one of them is the highest quality maces I ever saw, very whippy wood, bone ferrule, silver monogram, maker's mark too.
But the other is the real treasure. It was given to me as a gift from a French billiard table restorer about 20 years ago before he retired. The rounded handle looks like a lathe turning. It is actually spoke-shaved. The stepped pyramid shaped business end has carved grooves in the sides of the steps. It enlarges to a rectangular head. This striking surface is covered in thick leather. It has an ivory inlay on the bottom to slide on the cloth.
You are correct, leather was used before Mingaud, but my long-considered guess is that it was used to strike but not to spin the ball. This seems to be the only possibility, that Mingaud invented the cue tip for spin. Because nothing else explains why he was able to mesmerize crowds and make a living with exhibitions. It must be also why the novelty of the ball-spinning shots in his 1827 book caused Thurston's in England to publish their translation of his book in 1830. I trust your wisdom, let me know what you think. I have an unopened bottle of French cue tip glue that says, in French, "company founded in 1828." This bottle was from the same table restorer. He sent me a rounded, rough, white stone, with a rounded cavity in the center. It is a primitive tip scuffer. Now do you see why I need help building a museum website? Regards, JW
 
In the 90's when I started playing, there was a shoemaker who had his shop down the street from the poolroom. He was about 75 years old at the time, and I believe was even a 2nd or 3rd generation shoemaker. He made his own pool tips for his personal cues using leather from his shop. I'd imagine a lot of super old cue tips were made the same way, using a scrap of leather.
 
hunger strike said:
... You are correct, leather was used before Mingaud, but my long-considered guess is that it was used to strike but not to spin the ball. This seems to be the only possibility, that Mingaud invented the cue tip for spin. Because nothing else explains why he was able to mesmerize crowds and make a living with exhibitions. ...
Click to expand...
I've seen reports of players getting a limited amount of spin with no tips prior to Mingaud, and I've done that myself in a rec room where there were no tips on the cues. It seems reasonable that Mingaud figured out how to press or treat the leather so it could last. Tip leather seems a lot harder than most of the other leather I've seen. I don't know of any contemporary sources that discuss tip evolution around 1800.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I've seen reports of players getting a limited amount of spin with no tips prior to Mingaud, and I've done that myself in a rec room where there were no tips on the cues. It seems reasonable that Mingaud figured out how to press or treat the leather so it could last. Tip leather seems a lot harder than most of the other leather I've seen. I don't know of any contemporary sources that discuss tip evolution around 1800.
Click to expand...
I had to wiki Mingaud. That's funny

1776660663562.png
 
Bob Jewett said:
I've seen reports of players getting a limited amount of spin with no tips prior to Mingaud, and I've done that myself in a rec room where there were no tips on the cues. It seems reasonable that Mingaud figured out how to press or treat the leather so it could last. Tip leather seems a lot harder than most of the other leather I've seen. I don't know of any contemporary sources that discuss tip evolution around 1800.
Click to expand...
You are a trusted source, but I hope you can remember the source regarding players spinning the ball before Mingaud. Maybe it was in the Thurston's translation, I bought a reprint recently so this will give me a reason to read it.
Regarding the hardness of leather, I had to restore an 1800's cue long ago - the type with the bone butt cap which had the half leather bottom. The leather was missing, so the only hardened, worn, beveled leather I could find was on an old dress shoe. It looked exactly like leather on my other similar cues so I used it. It seems logical that Mingaud had limited sources for his leather discovery apart from what every person at the time had on hand - or on foot as the case may have been. Maybe that is why Sherlock Holmes said to doctor Watson - "the game is afoot!"
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20260420-002634_Chrome.jpg
    Screenshot_20260420-002634_Chrome.jpg
    94.2 KB · Views: 16
Last edited:
Hungarian said:
That's weird. just kidding
Click to expand...
Mike Betts, from Tulsa, looked for "new old stock" Le Pro tips to put on - and these extra-thick Le Pro tips hit like a dream. Skip, who owns Tweeten and makes the Le Pro says that water buffalo get skinned for fried snacks before they get old enough to have thick leather as in the past. Think pork rinds but in Nepal. My Nepali pool player buddy says water buffalo is a common meat used in "momo," and if you have ever eaten momo dumplings you would understand why water buffalo no longer grow old.
 
Last edited:
Bob...what are the chances that Carr's Twisting Chalk preceeded the leather tip? History says Jack Carr, it says Bath, England, it says Bartley's Billiard Room. But I have never seen a date or date range.
 
Last edited:
cueman said:
Those being made on the other side of the oceans maybe. But not the USA made single layered tips. They are cow hide.
Click to expand...
Skip at Tweeten says Le Pro are water buffalo. He did not comment on Elk Master, etc. Maybe the chrome tanned types are cow. Old French tip boxes hint at tips made of leather from the head of calves, and they have graphics with cow head images. "Tete de veau."
 
hunger strike said:
Bob...what are the chances that Carr's Twisting Chalk preceeded the leather tip? History says John Carr, it says Bath, England, it says Bartley's Billiard Room. But I have never seen a date or date range.
Click to expand...
That has been mentioned as before tips.
 
Quesports said:
I began playing pool in 66. Lots of cigarette smoke, burn marks on all the rails and no idea what cue tip was on those house cues.

Don’t recall it ever coming up in a conversation either.

I was 14 and had no idea what I was doing but I know I liked it. Cause I still lay pool! A little better too!
Click to expand...
Back then the standard house cue tip was almost always Elkmaster.
 
Last edited:
I ran the local pool hall night shift in the early 70’s. I still have 3 boxes of the elk masters. The day shift man did all cue repair and in those days you could grab a house cue from the wall rack and they were all good players. Man the good ole days
 
Kentucky Rack Man said:
I ran the local pool hall night shift in the early 70’s. I still have 3 boxes of the elk masters. The day shift man did all cue repair and in those days you could grab a house cue from the wall rack and they were all good players. Man the good ole days
Click to expand...
Elk Master used to be better. Now you have to look for one or two good tips on house cues. A cuemaker told me he dumps a box of 50 into a bowl of water and uses only the 3 or 4 that do not float. But that is hearsay.
 
Chrome tanned tips are blue, vegetable tanned leather is not. Vegetable tanned leather, according to my leather craftsman buddy, does not adhere well with glue. I wonder if that explains the ubiquity of Elk Masters on house cues. Fewer popped off.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top