Question.

For me personally mostly I would like to play better and the science aspect doesn't matter as much (while I am at the table). When I am not at the table I like to hear/read about some of the science stuff but not too much as it can get overwhelming, especially reading some of the comments that follow.

In regards to the thinking aspect I try to have it balanced and for the most part do my thinking before I address the ball, that way my subconscious can take over when I actually shoot. I do get frustrated when I miss an easy shot I've made a lot in the past, and I am sure some of that is mental, and the other part is a fundamental mistake which is usually something very small.

Matt
 
I want you to play better too my friend.

PM me your name and address and I"ll send you my entire collection of DVDS. If you already have them, please accept this gift, and donate them to a special person in your life that dreams of playing pool at the highest level one day.

We are about to pave a path for young players all over the world.......one at a time if that's what it takes.

Play well, and let the game be your teacher.

CJ Wiley

Sent. I will use and share.
 
John -

I am an engineer. I would have to know the physics first.

Watching Cole Dickson make these "Twist Back Banks" makes my head spin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiBM6JLcmK4

Ken

Speaking of Cole, you might find this amusing. As we both know Cole was a great banker.
The first time I played Cole he was around 14/15 yrs old. In the late sixties I think, been a long time ago, we played some $5 9 ball. Neither one of us had a cue, Bucktooth was there and had his cue with him so, I ask Bucky if I could borrow his Robinson. He says yea I could use his cue but, Cole and I both had to play with it because the cue had never lost.
I go up to get the cue and Bucktooth tells me this kid Cole can't bank a ball.
So when ever I get out of line, I'm playing two way shots so if I miss I've got a good chance of leaving Cole a bank. Didn't do me much good, ever time I left Cole a bank he just cut it in the pocket. Turns out he didn't need to bank, cross bank, he cut it pass the side pocket into the far corner, 9 ft of green no problem cut it in the corner, I've never seen anyone cut balls like Cole, man he had a smoothest stroke.
I think we ended up a couple games a part, didn't play to long they closed the joint early that night.
RIP my old friend.

Dale

John, science is good but, excution pockets ball.
 
would you rather know all the science that is involved in a pool shot or would you just rather know how to play top speed pool? Yes or no would be fine. Thanks,john b.

............. no.jpg
 
John...

John, first we need to define what you are referring to here by the science of pool.

I think what you are referring to and what most people think of when referring to the science of something are formulae and mathematics, etc...

I actually have a personal experience regarding that from two days ago.

I was playing Ruben Batista and it's 6-6.

I have a method that I've developed for masse'ing. I ended up a little hooked on the six that was tough but cutable in the side and this was for the win as I'm on the hill.

I used my method and as I'm getting ready to cue the ball, something just doesn't feel right and I KNOW that I should be jacked up a little higher.

My method has worked quite well for me in the past so I stick to it, come up short and hit the seven first giving him ball in hand. That put him on 7 and his break.

Using a methodology in pool (which is what true science is, using the scientific method to reach conclusions) is great, but the human subconscious is capable of so much that sometimes you have to just go with intuition.

There are a couple of things that higher caliber players like yourself and players at my level I think sometimes over look is that you've gotten to where you are by obtaining huge volumes of knowledge and with TONS of experience.

Using scientific methodology, (even if it's just using scientific methodology to develop psychological means of focusing on the right things, or getting in "The Zone" can be VERY beneficial to any player and using scientific methodology at lower and middle levels for ALL things can help them to understand and find what they're doing right and what they're doing wrong.

I feel that I'm caught somewhere in the middle. I love the science (even the mathematical and formula side of the science) but I also understand the power of letting go and listening to experience.

We just need to make sure that we don't teach others to rely too much on either one.

I will say that to reach a high level, and I don't think there's a single exception to this, you had to have a decent period of time at some point in your pool playing, where you ate, drank and slept pool AND you had to have some type of mentor or mentors that helped you gain the requisite knowledge along the way.

The science can be an aid in gaining that requisite knowledge.

You wouldn't be able to bank the way you can without gaining the knowledge that you could use inside or outside to shorten or lengthen the angle, or that you could hit hard or soft to do the same.

For some people, the science helps them to understand how that works better and it will help them to execute the shots better when they get down on the table.

Jaden
 
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John, first we need to define what you are referring to here by the science of pool.

I think what you are referring to and what most people think of when referring to the science of something are formulae and mathematics, etc...

I actually have a personal experience regarding that from two days ago.

I was playing Ruben Batista and it's 6-6.

I have a method that I've developed for masse'ing. I ended up a little hooked on the six that was tough but cutable in the side and this was for the win as I'm on the hill.

I used my method and as I'm getting ready to cue the ball, something just doesn't feel right and I KNOW that I should be jacked up a little higher.

My method has worked quite well for me in the past so I stick to it, come up short and hit the seven first giving him ball in hand. That put him on 7 and his break.

Using a methodology in pool (which is what true science is, using the scientific method to reach conclusions) is great, but the human subconscious is capable of so much that sometimes you have to just go with intuition.

There are a couple of things that higher caliber players like yourself and players at my level I think sometimes over look is that you've gotten to where you are by obtaining huge volumes of knowledge and with TONS of experience.

Using scientific methodology, (even if it's just using scientific methodology to develop psychological means of focusing on the right things, or getting in "The Zone" can be VERY beneficial to any player and using scientific methodology at lower and middle levels for ALL things can help them to understand and find what they're doing right and what they're doing wrong.

I feel that I'm caught somewhere in the middle. I love the science (even the mathematical and formula side of the science) but I also understand the power of letting go and listening to experience.

We just need to make sure that we don't teach others to rely too much on either one.

I will say that to reach a high level, and I don't think there's a single exception to this, you had to have a decent period of time at some point in your pool playing, where you ate, drank and slept pool AND you had to have some type of mentor or mentors that helped you gain the requisite knowledge along the way.

The science can be an aid in gaining that requisite knowledge.

You wouldn't be able to bank the way you can without gaining the knowledge that you could use inside or outside to shorten or lengthen the angle, or that you could hit hard or soft to do the same.

For some people, the science helps them to understand how that works better and it will help them to execute the shots better when they get down on the table.

Jaden

My first dvd is about the" Brumback Method" of how I bank.( making the pocket play big and or loose) That's my secret but it can be had:)
When I'm trying to teach someone banks,I teach the best method for the bank at hand.Most of the time that involves some sort of hold.However most of the times I have to fix their stroke and all or most of their fundamentals first. Stance,bridge,Which bridge to use for certain shots,cue up through the ball not down through it,stuff like that.

I teach the knowledge that I have gained through 30 years of playing pool with and against the best players in the world.( oh and alot of practice) I did not learn any of it from science.I would not dare clog some one's brain with that kind of stuff unless they were my enemy. IMO science is science and knowledge is knowledge.The two don't have much or maybe anything to do with each other when it comes to playing good pool.IMO
How many engineers are out there running out,playing top speed pool and winning big tourneys? ( you would think a bunch but I just aint never seen it or heard of it, wonder why?) (Some of em are surly retired and would like to knock down some pool pros) I have had this saying since I was about 14 years old...."it pays to be dumb at some things"( .I think pool is a perfect example of that. I have another saying that I use sometimes too (I came up with this one also) " you are too smart to learn" I'm not pointing any of this AT you... Jaden. Just giving my thoughts about this whole deal.

For what it's worth, a masse has to be one of the biggest feel shots in all of pool,imo.. John B.
 
My first dvd is about the" Brumback Method" of how I bank.( making the pocket play big and or loose) That's my secret but it can be had:)
When I'm trying to teach someone banks,I teach the best method for the bank at hand.Most of the time that involves some sort of hold.However most of the times I have to fix their stroke and all or most of their fundamentals first. Stance,bridge,Which bridge to use for certain shots,cue up through the ball not down through it,stuff like that.

I teach the knowledge that I have gained through 30 years of playing pool with and against the best players in the world.( oh and alot of practice) I did not learn any of it from science.I would not dare clog some one's brain with that kind of stuff unless they were my enemy. IMO science is science and knowledge is knowledge.The two don't have much or maybe anything to do with each other when it comes to playing good pool.IMO
How many engineers are out there running out,playing top speed pool and winning big tourneys? ( you would think a bunch but I just aint never seen it or heard of it, wonder why?) (Some of em are surly retired and would like to knock down some pool pros) I have had this saying since I was about 14 years old...."it pays to be dumb at some things"( .I think pool is a perfect example of that. I have another saying that I use sometimes too (I came up with this one also) " you are too smart to learn" I'm not pointing any of this AT you... Jaden. Just giving my thoughts about this whole deal.

For what it's worth, a masse has to be one of the biggest feel shots in all of pool,imo.. John B.

John, earlier you stated that you learned some things, and had to re-do your thinking. Big kudos to you for that! But, here, you seem to have thrown all that out the window.:confused:

Here, you state you didn't learn anything from science. Well, you have. Any time you set up a bank shot, and shot it a number of different ways to learn how to make it reapeatable, you were using science. For some reason, you seem to be stuck on science as meaning something like the stuff in Kohlers book. That stuff is all well and good, but that is not all science is. Just using draw or follow is using science. There are hundreds of science application in pool. Anyone that truly hasn't used science in playing pool has no clue of what to even do.

p.s. Did you know that there is a pretty accurate way to aim a masse' shot? It still requires some feel, but knowing how to aim it, you can get it on the correct line.
 
John, earlier you stated that you learned some things, and had to re-do your thinking. Big kudos to you for that! But, here, you seem to have thrown all that out the window.:confused:

Here, you state you didn't learn anything from science. Well, you have. Any time you set up a bank shot, and shot it a number of different ways to learn how to make it reapeatable, you were using science. For some reason, you seem to be stuck on science as meaning something like the stuff in Kohlers book. That stuff is all well and good, but that is not all science is. Just using draw or follow is using science. There are hundreds of science application in pool. Anyone that truly hasn't used science in playing pool has no clue of what to even do.

p.s. Did you know that there is a pretty accurate way to aim a masse' shot? It still requires some feel, but knowing how to aim it, you can get it on the correct line.

............ /sigh
 
Why is that a "Big Sigh" Chris. Because someone had an opinion that differs from yours?

The Title of the Thread was, Wait for it, "Question".

That meant to me, that John was willing to listen to any members opinions that cared to post.
 
Why is that a "Big Sigh" Chris. Because someone had an opinion that differs from yours?

The Title of the Thread was, Wait for it, "Question".

That meant to me, that John was willing to listen to any members opinions that cared to post.

simply pattern recognition....
 
If by pattern recognition, you mean the years that John said that it took him to experiment and test his angles etc, until he had it down and then it would be considered to have committed it to knowledge.
 
I think there is a balance. I have learned some very useful knowledge from Dr Daves website that has given me greater confidence in executing. At the end of the day I think it is confidence that is what matters, along with an ability to allow your body to execute. If you are the type of guy who has spent the hours on the table to learn what a shot feels like and you execute with confidence then you are on the right track imo. If you are the type who has to calculate how to draw a ball one diamond... using a certain speed of stroke along with a certain tip amount of low then you will never be consistent enough to play good. The correct way is to know what drawing a ball one diamond on that table feels like and do it.

The same can be said for aiming. If you are figuring the speed, how much deflection, how much curve, throw, etc. you are being too scientific imo. Keep it simple and execute imo. People dont believe in themselves enough imo. Lets look at aiming as an example. I know a guy who swears he has an issue with aiming and he prooves this to himself everytime he plays pool, 8 ball 9 ball it dont matter although he plays some pretty good onehole. But even though he "has issues with aiming" when it comes to rotation games or eight ball if you play him some golf on the snooker table he is able to lag the jaws or else pocket tough shots everytime even when using side english. I thought there could be a fault in his stroke when he shoots harder making the difference but nope, he shoots hard three and four railers on the golf table and hits exactly where he is aiming and he puts the cueball where he wants it. Its all in his head. His confidence on the golf table is the difference. Logically, if he can hit precise diamonds on the golf table with perfect speed he should be able to hit 4 1/2" pockets but in his mind he "has an issue with aiming" and you can just hear the calculations going through his head on the pool table. When you talk to him it's easy too see what his problem is. He is the guy who can tell you the margin for error for each shot and how hard it is to be that precise with all of the factors involved. When he has to make a shot, like in 10 ball, he goes into calculation mode, looking for exact contact points, factoring in deflection and curve and throw etc. When he has the luxury to lag he thinks differently.
 
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I think there is a balance. I have learned some very useful knowledge from Dr Daves website that has given me greater confidence in executing. At the end of the day I think it is confidence that is what matters, along with an ability to allow your body to execute. If you are the type of guy who has spent the hours on the table to learn what a shot feels like and you execute with confidence then you are on the right track imo. If you are the type who has to calculate how to draw a ball one diamond... using a certain speed of stroke along with a certain tip amount of low then you will never be consistent enough to play good. The correct way is to know what drawing a ball one diamond on that table feels like and do it.

The same can be said for aiming. If you are figuring the speed, how much deflection, how much curve, throw, etc. you are being too scientific imo. Keep it simple and execute imo. People dont believe in themselves enough imo. Lets look at aiming as an example. I know a guy who swears he has an issue with aiming and he prooves this to himself everytime he plays pool, 8 ball 9 ball it dont matter although he plays some pretty good onehole. But even though he "has issues with aiming" when it comes to rotation games or eight ball if you play him some golf on the snooker table he is able to lag the jaws or else pocket tough shots everytime even when using side english. I thought there could be a fault in his stroke when he shoots harder making the difference but nope, he shoots hard three and four railers on the golf table and hits exactly where he is aiming and he puts the cueball where he wants it. Its all in his head. His confidence on the golf table is the difference. Logically, if he can hit precise diamonds on the golf table with perfect speed he should be able to hit 4 1/2" pockets but in his mind he "has an issue with aiming" and you can just hear the calculations going through his head on the pool table. When you talk to him it's easy too see what his problem is. He is the guy who can tell you the margin for error for each shot and how hard it is to be that precise with all of the factors involved. When he has to make a shot, like in 10 ball, he goes into calculation mode, looking for exact contact points, factoring in deflection and curve and throw etc. When he has the luxury to lag he thinks differently.

My post is not directed toward Satori but more as an extension of thoughts stimulated by his post.

In my time here I have seen many times someone say things that would scare the beejeebies out of me ever trying to use english if I had not already been using it since I was 13.

It's not that difficult but the formula involved for each individual shot would be beyond probably 90% of those playing pool.

I'd like to see the formula for hitting the center of the cue ball given that a human being is doing the execution.

IMHO the 'science' of pool rather often isolates in an attempt to explain pool & stops short or leaves out certain parameters especially when making a comparative 'conclusion'.

We're stuck to the planet by gravity. We don't use it. Before a certain time we had no recognition of it. We dropped something it fell. So someone 'realeyesed' that if they wanted to throw a rock at a saber toothed tiger they had to give the rock elevation in order to get it to the tiger. They were not using science. Some things are innate.

I find it a bit odd that the word science is used as a noun but the definition is more of a verb in that 'it is the activity of study in order to gain knowledge'.

So... to me there is innate knowledge & there is scientific knowledge.

We don't uses any conscious scientific knowledge to learn how to walk & then there is talking.

Science has learned much about the human brain but there is still much that science does not know about the human brain & even less about the 'human mind'.

I once coached a mentally challenged man to beat his neighbor in a game of 8 ball. He did exactly what I told him to do including the use of english. His neighbors mouth hung open in amazement.

sci·ence
ˈsīəns/Submit
noun
the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.
"the world of science and technology"
synonyms: branch of knowledge, body of knowledge/information, area of study, discipline, field
"the science of criminology"
a particular area of this.
plural noun: sciences
"veterinary science"
a systematically organized body of knowledge on a particular subject.
"the science of criminology"
synonyms: physics, chemistry, biology; More
 
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My $.02...

I think everyone here understands the physics of pool, in terms of pool. For example, everyone here understands how a stop shot works: the cue ball must be skidding. In physics, we'd just say the ball has no angular/rotational momentum.

Everyone understands the speed a cue ball has coming off the object ball for a 3/4 hit, 1/2 hit, 1/4 hit, etc. Well, that's just conservation of momentum.

Science is a structured way to figure out if there are "rules" that govern how the world works so that we can predict outcomes and ultimately create useful tools and machines based on those outcomes. This guy wants to know the science (i.e., physics) behind a shot so his lasers will work. Everyone else should just learn how the balls move.
 
The game requires a high degree of touch, which is a "right brain",creative process

My $.02...

I think everyone here understands the physics of pool, in terms of pool. For example, everyone here understands how a stop shot works: the cue ball must be skidding. In physics, we'd just say the ball has no angular/rotational momentum.

Everyone understands the speed a cue ball has coming off the object ball for a 3/4 hit, 1/2 hit, 1/4 hit, etc. Well, that's just conservation of momentum.

Science is a structured way to figure out if there are "rules" that govern how the world works so that we can predict outcomes and ultimately create useful tools and machines based on those outcomes. This guy wants to know the science (i.e., physics) behind a shot so his lasers will work. Everyone else should just learn how the balls move.


I agree, it's best to leave the lasers alone, and trust yourself.

It's a daunting task to explain the game first in terms of physics and geometry, then expect to perform at the highest levels.

The reason is, when you play with poor fundamentals you won't be about to create the necessary shots to go by {on the table}.

This game requires a high degree of touch, which is a "right brain", creative process.....learning out of a book requires a "left brain" analysis. These two processes may be conflicting in terms of learning AND applying new information.

This leads to "paralysis by analysis," which is frustrating, and often leads to an inability to compete in even local tournaments. No one wants to be embarrassed playing when they claim to know the intricacies of pool (from reading).

On the other hand, it is possible to learn to play at a championship level, THEN learn how to explain through physics, knowledge, experiences and geometry
 
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