TheThaiger
Banned
...and here I was thinking it was just a lack of hard work and dedication.
They are merely excuses.
Redefining the Definition of Backhand English
- Thread starter Cornerman
- Start date
They are merely excuses.
I think in the real world on real tables, depending on how close and what angle the object ball approaches, it's fair to say that the pivot point is a range, not a point. The ball can go into the pocket at a range of pivot points, that's the claim and it's reality. We can talk about effective pivot points and squirt/swerve blending I suppose. But, that's really not the point.
Well I already told Jaden (in jest, but for history's sake), that the term Pivot Point Aiming had already been used to define using the pivot point for squirt compensation as early as 2005.
"Back hand english" is a method of keeping you bridge hand in place and moving only your back grip hand for the primary purpose of applying english. No particular bridge length is required to meet the definition.
If the primary purpose (the reason you had to do it) is something other than to apply english then it is a "back hand pivot". Some of these other reasons could be to come back to hitting center ball after you started elsewhere on the ball, or as one of the steps in an aiming system. In such cases its purpose would not primarily be to apply english, and it would be back hand pivot.
Many players using back hand english these days are doing so soley because it can be combined with a certain bridge length/pivot point to compensate for squirt at the same time you apply english. They therefore incorrectly feel that a certain bridge/length/pivot point is a required component since that is the only reason that they started using back hand english. But back hand english is back hand english whether or not you choose to use a particular bridge length to also compensate for the squirt. As an example I have a friend that plays at a pretty high level and uses back hand english exclusively for applying english. He doesn't have a clue that bridge length affects squirt and doesn't use the bridge length for his cue that would compensate for the squirt.
If the primary purpose (the reason you had to do it) is something other than to apply english then it is a "back hand pivot". Some of these other reasons could be to come back to hitting center ball after you started elsewhere on the ball, or as one of the steps in an aiming system. In such cases its purpose would not primarily be to apply english, and it would be back hand pivot.
Many players using back hand english these days are doing so soley because it can be combined with a certain bridge length/pivot point to compensate for squirt at the same time you apply english. They therefore incorrectly feel that a certain bridge/length/pivot point is a required component since that is the only reason that they started using back hand english. But back hand english is back hand english whether or not you choose to use a particular bridge length to also compensate for the squirt. As an example I have a friend that plays at a pretty high level and uses back hand english exclusively for applying english. He doesn't have a clue that bridge length affects squirt and doesn't use the bridge length for his cue that would compensate for the squirt.
Says a guy that doesn't know how to use inside english. I understand.
of course some people need to do that to feel morally superior.
That seems to be accurate, of course some people need to do that to feel morally superior.. - the good news is 99.9% of the people on AZ aren't posting and still have the ability to differentiate the true from the false.
I teach all about the "pivots" in my TIP (Touch/Inside/Pivot) Banking Video. Pivoting is very, very useful in creating angles, however, there's a technique to doing it consistently, and I'm sure Hal understood this. I learned one of mine from another "Hal".....HAL MIX ..... he took a special interest in me and we became friends, talking in great length at several major tournaments.
Thanks to all the Hals out there ...'The Game is our Teacher'
That seems to be accurate, of course some people need to do that to feel morally superior.. - the good news is 99.9% of the people on AZ aren't posting and still have the ability to differentiate the true from the false.
I teach all about the "pivots" in my TIP (Touch/Inside/Pivot) Banking Video. Pivoting is very, very useful in creating angles, however, there's a technique to doing it consistently, and I'm sure Hal understood this. I learned one of mine from another "Hal".....HAL MIX ..... he took a special interest in me and we became friends, talking in great length at several major tournaments.
Thanks to all the Hals out there ...'The Game is our Teacher'
Define it however you like, but the "magic" of back hand english (aim straight, pivot, and the ball still takes off in the direction you aimed) works best at one particular point, as you obviously already know. I feel that I would be doing someone a disservice to teach them that they can apply english by moving their back hand without also showing them that there is a bridge length that it works best at.
That is the only good reason that I am aware of to do it.
Okay, but it seems like a missed opportunity if they choose a bridge length other than at the pivot point.
Lots of pool players, even really good ones, do things without knowing why they work. If your friend is using a bridge length other than the pivot point and still hitting the cue ball in the direction he intends, he is still adjusting for some squirt by feel. If he bridged at the pivot point, he would only have to adjust for swerve and throw.
The funny thing is that I don't even use back hand english and now I'm wrapped up in a discussion of the semantics of the term. Personally, I think that the extra forgiveness of my LD shaft is worth giving up a pivot point at a natural bridge length, so I compensate for squirt, swerve and throw by feel instead and try to come down into my stance with the cue along the intended stroke line.
I do find back hand english "neat" from an academic perspective and a useful tool available to players using a regular shaft, so I like to discuss it with anyone interested in the physics of pool or demonstrate it to players who haven't run into the concept before. I will be sure to include the controversy over the terminology into future discussions and lessons so they don't mention it to the wrong person and get berated.
That guy might have been your ally. He was probably referring to the flames who changed your initial simple, well-explained proposition (even if not agreed with by those guys) into a psychological debate. And how about the douchebag who posited something about Cornerman being a term in a circle jerk? WTF would someone say something like that? LOSER flame, the only explanation.He and the initial deity complex guy are mere flames. As you said, Hal is not the issue... the original deity complex guy bowed out finally...with not enough courage to even say "sorry for acting like an a$$ hole and intentionally twisting your argument just so I can start a fight and use a cute psychological term and berate someone since I dont feel good about myself somewhere deep inside... *and i forgot to take my vaginal cramping medicine today. Please forgive me, I promise I'll pause before i go to flame someone in the future and I'll seek professional help if I cant control myself."
Apparently you missed it, that was my point.
you could be standing 2"-6" closer or further from the cue ball and not notice
Remember how important bridge length is to the "natural pivot point".....this is why it's essential to calibrate your back hand to your bridge length by actually measuring your distance to the cue ball.....I use my cue to do this and the "relative point" starts at my right hip.....I recommend everyone have a contact point on their body to establish distance from the cue ball on a daily basis.....if you don't {do this} you could be standing 2"-6" closer or further from the cue ball and not notice....except for a diminished game quality that day/night. 'The Game is the Teacher'
Remember how important bridge length is to the "natural pivot point".....this is why it's essential to calibrate your back hand to your bridge length by actually measuring your distance to the cue ball.....I use my cue to do this and the "relative point" starts at my right hip.....I recommend everyone have a contact point on their body to establish distance from the cue ball on a daily basis.....if you don't {do this} you could be standing 2"-6" closer or further from the cue ball and not notice....except for a diminished game quality that day/night. 'The Game is the Teacher'
I knew Hal when he was in So. Calif and he called it backhand "English" and never inferred it had anything to do with swerve "compensation" it was for English only. Anything that has to do with backhand english for compensation should have a different definition. Simple.
Thanks CJ for mentioning Hal Mix. A very overlooked teacher.
Thanks CJ for mentioning Hal Mix. A very overlooked teacher.
TheThaiger
Banned
No, I don't think you do. I said its difficult and asked why anyone would use it, which is a long way from what you 'understood'.
And, to keep my fans happy, that one actually was a troll. To be fair, CJ took it well and actually made a decent post for once. Not that I understood what he was on about, but you cant have everything.
And I've seen you play. And heard you talk. It is me that 'understands', my friend.
Alex Lao showed it to me years ago ( calls it pihit )
Spot shot, " pihit" to the outside, ball goes in.
Except where noted in bold above, I mostly agreed with what you had to say. I just didn't understand what it had to do with how back hand english is or should be defined, which was what the thread, discussion, and my post were about. I'm sure I missed something though. :shrug:
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Fred,
We communicated via PM on this topic, but I thought I would share my responses here so others could see them:
Thanks for the history lesson. I wasn't aware of the origin of the phrase "back-hand english" (BHE). However, I feel that recent usage (in instructional articles, books, DVDs, and YouTube videos) by me, Colin Colenso, Joe Tucker, Mike Page, Bob Jewett, and others have redefined BHE to a more "modern" usage.
To me, there are several different "aim and pivot" or "align and pivot" methods out there: CTE and all its variants, BHE, and "stroke swoop" are examples. So I currently interpret "aim and pivot" as a more general phrase. And I (and many others) currently interpret "back-hand english" as an "aim a pivot" method where you move the "back hand" (pivoting at the bridge) to apply "english" relative to center-ball aim before the stroke.
Again, I appreciate the history lesson, but term/phrase usage sometimes changes over time, and what is considered "accepted" is what is currently published. There is prominent usage of BHE as I have described in published articles, books, DVDs, and numerous Youtube videos; therefore, I think the new interpretation is valid (regardless of what has been done in the past in Internet discussions and limited published material).
If your main concern is the pivot being at the "natural pivot length," then we have no disagreement. BHE can be applied with the bridge at any pivot point. Although, for fast-speed and/or close shots, the "natural pivot length" is the proper choice for squirt compensation.
Catch you later,
Dave
Since this seems to be our only significant points of misunderstanding, I think it deserves some additional explanation.
My argument for bridging at the pivot point when using backhand english is simply that it doesn't work as well to offset squirt at any other point, so if you are bridging at some other point, you can't aim straight down the intended shot line before you pivot and expect the cue ball to head down that line. Without realizing that benefit, moving your backhand to apply english is no better or worse than any other method because it requires compensating for squirt, swerve and throw. Even with that benefit, it is only really useful without additional compensation in cases where squirt and throw are minimal and/or nearly cancel each other out. Other times, it can still be used, but the original aim line will have to include compensation for those factors.
For me, taking squirt into consideration along with swerve and throw isn't much more difficult that taking only swerve and throw into consideration, especially when using a low squirt shaft that reduces the effect of squirt across the board. That's not to say that I run the calculations for every shot, only that once you have the feel for a particular shot, shooting that shot and other similar shots is just a matter of doing about the same thing you did before. Furthermore, if I choose the correct shot to send the object ball to the center of the pocket, the variation in the results due to stroke error will be less with a low squirt shaft than a regular shaft. I believe that this is a more significant benefit than being able to use backhand english at the pivot point to "automatically" make fast and short shots with arbitrary amounts of english.
I hope that clarifies my choice of equipment and technique. You might not agree with it, but I have put some thought into it, so it's a bit frustrating to have someone tell me that it makes no sense without challenging any of my assumptions or pointing out a particular flaw in my reasoning.
I think this statement is at odds with the following statement on your website: "With basic BHE, the bridge is placed at the natural pivot length of the shaft."
I guess now you'll have to modify that to something like this:
"With basic BHE, the bridge can be placed anywhere along the cue. In order for BHE to automatically compensate for squirt, the bridge may be placed at the natural pivot point of the shaft."
:thumbup: