Regarding construction and playability.

[manwon]

Enter Bill Stroud (Joss West Custom Cues), Bill is contracted to go to China and teach them how to set up new factories using this technology. He teaches them how to process woods, How to build cues in general, and Bill shows them designs that will enhance sales in the USA. Thus the invasion starts, the first higher quality lines were the Players and Lucasi cues that are sold by Cue and Case sales. Now in this country more cues are imported than are built by American Production Cues factories. Everyone has jump on the Bus, and there are more lines of these import cues than I can keep up with.
Thankfully, there is still that small market of good people who support non-factory cues.

Thankfully, there is still that small market of good people who support non-factory cues.[/QUOTE]

Amen Brother, I totally agree, but I think the more Cue Makers that change their techniques to forms of CNC construction the more they will be compared to mass production. I do not think buyers are stupid, in fact they are already begining to take notice and ask questions, I see and hear it every day!!

Have a good night Joey!!

 

[Arnot Wadsworth]

Moving on to decoration however, there is a completely different story. If i was in the market for a hand crafted custom cue,
I would definitely prefer something that conveyed the makers taste, skill and years of hard work he has put into his craft and would want that to show in the final product.
For me personally I find that computer cut inlays do not exhibit any of that - kind of hurts the integrity of the final product. I for one would much rather do without the plastic ivory scraps. I often hear: If you can't tell the difference, then who cares!".
Well if it is my cue then i can tell the difference. What you attach to yourself says a lot about who you are.

only my 2c,

Oliver

If I cannot always tell the difference between inlays that were done with a CNC Machine and a Pantograph then nobody else can either and the use of CNC inlays does NOT reflect badly upon the cuemaker that uses that machine. Cuemakers work too damn hard perfecting their CNC skills for someone like you to come along demean its value.

By the way - all cues are made with machines. There is no such thing as a "hand made cue" and all cues are made in factories whether the factory be a large facility or a small shop. I happen to believe that a small shop paying precice attention to detail makes a better cue than a production shop.

I don't think your opinion is worth 2c.

 

[conetip]

My Father had a laminated beam company. What you are calling a full splice, They called it a radial finger joint, or radial lap joint.This gave a large glue area and for beams allowed for nails to be used to hold the pieces in position while joining. For the cylindrical beams, they would be wrapped to create pressure while it dried.

 

[Newton]

Thankfully, there is still that small market of good people who support non-factory cues.

Amen Brother, I totally agree, but I think the more Cue Makers that change their techniques to forms of CNC construction the more they will be compared to mass production. I do not think buyers are stupid, in fact they are already begining to take notice and ask questions, I see and hear it every day!!

Have a good night Joey!!

I was just wondering about my old McDermott D22 cue.
It supposed to be a fully spliced cue, but a closer investigation showed me this : http://www.kendocues.com/Websted/Pictures/Sider/Xray_of_shaft_&_Cue.html
The cue is the bottom one in the picture Butt_forarm_A_join and in Butt_forarm_A_join2.
The strange thing is that there is a bolt, in the middle of the splice, which I simply have no idea how they managed to put there???
What would you call this ?

A modern CNC inlayed cue is the other compared cue which has the usual A joint section and a bolt.

Speaking about CNC; I read about Mr. T.Wayne the other day and he is as I understand it a expert in CNC.
He makes his own equipment and do some fancy work (I have not seen to much of his work).
However it seems like his cues are placed in the "high end" marked (don't know the prices),
so I can't see that the impact of CNC has damaged his reputation.... ?

I have read C.Hightowers book and his view on CNC was pretty interesting;

When he started using a pantograph, those who still sat 10 hours with a stiletto knife to make a inlay,
felt he was crossing the line by using this machine and was not proper enough (If I remember correct).

Now we think CNC inlays are not "proper" because there is a machine which does this,
even if it's done with more accuracy and more intricate options,
which again would make the old school man work for day's to do the same.

For me, this would be tied down to; Do you manually sit with a knife and hand make the inlay/pockets?

If not, you are using machines which should make no big difference.
A Pantograph is copying a inlay/pattern most likely made from a machine shop (possibly by CNC)
which you reproduce with a small milling machine.
This is a "cheap mans CNC" and is this considered handwork?
If not I think we have many cues out there which is not "hand made" ..

So to appreciate something which is priced to $1000 -10 000 should this be made with a small knife ?
This is not always the case, many use Pantographs and for those who can afford, use CNC.
So I think it boils down to the quality of the wood, design and intricacy.

Saying that a CNC inlayed cue is not "worth" a "custom cue" name,
is not handwork, refusing to buy something like this, is for me a no go.
What makes a custom cue distinct is the builders knowledge of construction techniques,
material combinations and know how.
The ideas on how to make something which satisfies the customers needs in playability,
quality and craftsmanship is for me what a custom cue is all about.
The inlays is just eye candy which I take as a bonus and do not bother me to bad sleep at nights.
I don't car if he used a circle saw, band saw or a "knife and fork".

If I had a PC which could make a pocket+inlay exactly looking the same every 7 days a week,
what would be different if I used a Pantograph (with a machined template) and produced the same pocket + inlay?
Nothing, except that using a pantograph might not make me able to produce the same amount of inlays.

If I was using a knife,file,sandpaper and other tools, I might do the same inlay,
but most likely produce much fewer of these and possibly have small variations in the produced inlay.
For this to work I would need to charge much more money for the inlay / work because I can't produce the same amount of products.
I would most likely get a "tennis elbow", bad neck and a bad tamper when a customers thinks the inlays don't look right to.

We are basically paying for the amount of time involved in the production, which again is depending on the tools used.
If the fully spliced cues could be done in a CNC machine, why should that be of less quality then one produced using a circle saw/band saw?



Branding is an old art. I have been driving expensive Italian sports cars, which had "hand stitched" leather seats and all the bells and whistles which costed a truck load of money.
Of course this car needs to be expensive, since the production costs is much higher.
But the quality of the car was not that much better than other "normal" cars, according to the owner.

The bottom line is; This is like discussing religion - everybody has one and they all claims their own is their best. (I'm not any extreme religious person by no means).

Personally I would be interested in paying high prizes for a old school cue, but this is due to the limited amount of these,
special designs and historical value. Not because some one was willing to sit flat out 10 hours hand making inlays.

CNC would be around and I bet you anything that many who use old school saw,
knife and files is considering CNC to save them self for "tennis elbows",
neck pains and other fun stuff after many years in the business.
I know tradition is a part of the equation, and for those who would like to pay for this should do it.

Hey, why don't we all start using horses and park our car's,
skip the food shop and grow all our food our self ?

N

 

[qbilder]

CNC is a different work. You cannot compare it to a pantomill that is operated by hand. When cuemakers claim to make something by hand, that means they are operating machinery manually, and measuring everything without the aid of a computer. Don't get me wrong, there's absolutely nothing wrong with CNC & i'm not discrediting the use of CNC. But CNC is CNC & handwork is handwork.

If I plant a row of corn & I use a shovel & hoe to till the earth, is that by hand? I'm using tools, right? I can get the same & better results using a rototiller. Is that still by hand? I can buy a John Deer tractor & plant hundreds or thousands of rows of corn & do nothing but steer the wheel. In any situation I get corn, and it tastes the same in the end & all makes a turd. The only difference is the method I chose to go about planting it.

I think any machine manually operated is considered "by hand". My hands crank the wheel & my hands measure & my hands make adjustments, so it's by hand.

 

[Newton]

CNC is a different work. You cannot compare it to a pantomill that is operated by hand. When cuemakers claim to make something by hand, that means they are operating machinery manually, and measuring everything without the aid of a computer. Don't get me wrong, there's absolutely nothing wrong with CNC & i'm not discrediting the use of CNC. But CNC is CNC & handwork is handwork.

Well, as mentioned, everybody has it's own view on these issues so I think we would be discussing this to death.

I do not agree with you in you're statement however.
Using a pantomill you simply drag a "spike" in a grove to make the mill follow the same path.
You are using a muscle but you do nothing else than that.
If you have a rig you park you're cue in this an do some control measurements and of you go.
The only thing I could understand could be handwork was if you took a pice of brass plate, hand made the grooves which the pantomill was following.

If I was a CNC programmer (which I'm not) and I was able to figure out a way to make a spliced cue, have I then not performed any manual work?

I think you would be seriously stepping on many game programmers, modern art producers and photographers feet by saying that they do not perform any manual work.

If I gave you a digital camera, do you think you could take the same pictures a professional photographer could do? The camera do the work and there is computers inside controlling auto focus and tons of other options?

If you got the same advanced CNC machine one of the custom cue makers have, do you think you could push a button and magically make the same cue without any manual operation of the machinery?

If I plant a row of corn & I use a shovel & hoe to till the earth, is that by hand? I'm using tools, right? I can get the same & better results using a rototiller. Is that still by hand? I can buy a John Deer tractor & plant hundreds or thousands of rows of corn & do nothing but steer the wheel. In any situation I get corn, and it tastes the same in the end & all makes a turd. The only difference is the method I chose to go about planting it.

I think any machine manually operated is considered "by hand". My hands crank the wheel & my hands measure & my hands make adjustments, so it's by hand.

Well, I do agree with you here but I think you are basically talking "both things" here.
That was my point in my post. If the farmer use horse on his corn, is that worth paying more for than the farmer is using a modern tractor with GPS and basically sitting smoking a cigar in the cabin?
I would be paying for the corn which gives me the best taste and I don't care if the farmer was using whatever tool to produce it.
The knowhow of where to put the corn and how to treat the soil would be the secret which makes the corn taste better

Anyway, I have no pantomill, no CNC and not ever made a cue. But I would get there some time and hopefully be a good cue maker.

N

 

[Olive]

Hey Mr. Arnot, chill out, i did say it was only my personal opinion.

No one is being demeaned, I spoke from a cue BUYERS point of view, not a makers. You spend all those hours perfecting your cnc skills for all i care, theres probably a much bigger client base who will appreciate the detail and be happy to have it on their cues. If i was given the choice of free cnc inlays then i would say no, give me the wood in all its glory - take it as you will.

im pretty sure a few other people are beginning to feel the same way,

Oliver

 

[manwon]

I was just wondering about my old McDermott D22 cue.
It supposed to be a fully spliced cue, but a closer investigation showed me this : http://www.kendocues.com/Websted/Pictures/Sider/Xray_of_shaft_&_Cue.html
The cue is the bottom one in the picture Butt_forarm_A_join and in Butt_forarm_A_join2.
The strange thing is that there is a bolt, in the middle of the splice, which I simply have no idea how they managed to put there???
What would you call this ?

A modern CNC inlayed cue is the other compared cue which has the usual A joint section and a bolt.

Speaking about CNC; I read about Mr. T.Wayne the other day and he is as I understand it a expert in CNC.
He makes his own equipment and do some fancy work (I have not seen to much of his work).
However it seems like his cues are placed in the "high end" marked (don't know the prices),
so I can't see that the impact of CNC has damaged his reputation.... ?

I have read C.Hightowers book and his view on CNC was pretty interesting;

When he started using a pantograph, those who still sat 10 hours with a stiletto knife to make a inlay,
felt he was crossing the line by using this machine and was not proper enough (If I remember correct).

Now we think CNC inlays are not "proper" because there is a machine which does this,
even if it's done with more accuracy and more intricate options,
which again would make the old school man work for day's to do the same.

For me, this would be tied down to; Do you manually sit with a knife and hand make the inlay/pockets?

If not, you are using machines which should make no big difference.
A Pantograph is copying a inlay/pattern most likely made from a machine shop (possibly by CNC)
which you reproduce with a small milling machine.
This is a "cheap mans CNC" and is this considered handwork?
If not I think we have many cues out there which is not "hand made" ..

So to appreciate something which is priced to $1000 -10 000 should this be made with a small knife ?
This is not always the case, many use Pantographs and for those who can afford, use CNC.
So I think it boils down to the quality of the wood, design and intricacy.

Saying that a CNC inlayed cue is not "worth" a "custom cue" name,
is not handwork, refusing to buy something like this, is for me a no go.
What makes a custom cue distinct is the builders knowledge of construction techniques,
material combinations and know how.
The ideas on how to make something which satisfies the customers needs in playability,
quality and craftsmanship is for me what a custom cue is all about.
The inlays is just eye candy which I take as a bonus and do not bother me to bad sleep at nights.
I don't car if he used a circle saw, band saw or a "knife and fork".

If I had a PC which could make a pocket+inlay exactly looking the same every 7 days a week,
what would be different if I used a Pantograph (with a machined template) and produced the same pocket + inlay?
Nothing, except that using a pantograph might not make me able to produce the same amount of inlays.

If I was using a knife,file,sandpaper and other tools, I might do the same inlay,
but most likely produce much fewer of these and possibly have small variations in the produced inlay.
For this to work I would need to charge much more money for the inlay / work because I can't produce the same amount of products.
I would most likely get a "tennis elbow", bad neck and a bad tamper when a customers thinks the inlays don't look right to.

We are basically paying for the amount of time involved in the production, which again is depending on the tools used.
If the fully spliced cues could be done in a CNC machine, why should that be of less quality then one produced using a circle saw/band saw?



Branding is an old art. I have been driving expensive Italian sports cars, which had "hand stitched" leather seats and all the bells and whistles which costed a truck load of money.
Of course this car needs to be expensive, since the production costs is much higher.
But the quality of the car was not that much better than other "normal" cars, according to the owner.

The bottom line is; This is like discussing religion - everybody has one and they all claims their own is their best. (I'm not any extreme religious person by no means).

Personally I would be interested in paying high prizes for a old school cue, but this is due to the limited amount of these,
special designs and historical value. Not because some one was willing to sit flat out 10 hours hand making inlays.

CNC would be around and I bet you anything that many who use old school saw,
knife and files is considering CNC to save them self for "tennis elbows",
neck pains and other fun stuff after many years in the business.
I know tradition is a part of the equation, and for those who would like to pay for this should do it.

Hey, why don't we all start using horses and park our car's,
skip the food shop and grow all our food our self ?

N

I looked at your X-rays and they are really great, however, they do not show the point construction. Most people using CNC machined forearms are not splicing anything, the points are actually inlayed in pre-cut pockets. Using this technique veneer's can be added like with V-spliced or Full Spiced forearms and while most cue makers using CNC don't do it, the tips of the points can be made as sharp as a razor not rounded. For example look at Tad's cues, his points are sharp at the tips, however, they are not spliced, they are in fact Pano-inlayed and they been for many years.

What everything come down to is really perfection. Once you establish yourself using a technique you will become known for it, for those who think they can hide these facts, in time someone will see a broken cue and know what they are looking at. I think the best policy is be honest, if you use a certain technique be proud that this is what you have chosen, and DO NOT HIDE THE FACT, THIS IS THE ONLY PROBLEM I CAN SEE!!!

Oh and by the way, remember customers are getting allot smarter, and while some do not care how a cue is built, others certainly do. Like I said previously, Mr. Schick told me very clearly that his cutomers do not want cues with CNC points, now his customers are paying two figures plus at a minimum. So I suspect there is a market both ways and there always will be, but like all items made with limited machinery through history, individual craftsmanship will always be sought after.
Just my thought's

 

[DBK]

Only my opinion concerning two very interesting to me themes.

Concerning a Full Splice. IMHO, Full Splice it is more correct for cues. Full Splice gives the best feeling of a shot, not deforming feeling of whole wood. For this reason I tried classical Full Splice. I bought blanks in the USA, made blanks myself. But it would be desirable the greater. Therefore we began to try to develop six points on a Full Splice cue. And it was possible to us to develop Six Points Full Splice. As bonus there has come an opportunity of repeated recutting. This technology differs from classical Titlist technologies. Therefore I have cautiously named it - PROBABLY a novelty.
But Full Splice it does not mean that Short Splice poorly. All depends on experience, quality and philosophy of cuemaker. Short Splice cues play not worse then Full Splice for majority of players.

By the way, why Full Splice cues costs cheaply than base cue with a forearm, a handle and a sleeve? If to take two cues with identical wood, joint, shaft and without a decor. To work with Full Splice IMHO is more difficult.

As to CNC. IMHO, here it is necessary to distinguish two cases.

The first. CNC is used by the cuemaker only as the tool which allows the cuemaker to embody the imaginations on his cues. CNC as the tool, same as a knife, a file, a plane, etc. CNC allows to make all that has thought up cuemaker more accurately than the hands. No more that. It allows to have more easy his own style, for example as Sirca and others. My CNC I have got for such purpose only.
But biggest "trouble" will maybe that the cuemaker's imagination will withdraw him to an extreme distance. Maybe so extreme that will not be visible cue itself . But now it is not only cue-Building but cue-Art or cue-Imagination. Look Wayne or Arthur for example. It is charming. But I would be afraid to play such cues. Only to admire.
But in any case in such cues there is a part of spirit of the cuemaker as though he would make them completely by the hands.

The second variant. CNC is used as the machine for reception of richer crop of cues. Yes, cues made the big circulations can be beautiful, yes, production cues can be cheaper, yes, production cue can be good in game. But in such cues will have no spirit of the master. It only for the profit.

Such only my opinion.

Excuse for many words and my bad English.
Good luck,
Dmitry

 

[Newton]

I looked at your X-rays and they are really great, however, they do not show the point construction.

If you have a look at the ...joint2 picture you could see the different densities of the wood down to the handle.
This is the spliced part and the cavity and the bolt is in the middle of the splice...
This was for me the strange part - I simply don't understand how they managed to park that bolt inside there.
Even less actually turning the forarm around to make it fixed

Most people using CNC machined forearms are not splicing anything, the points are actually inlayed in pre-cut pockets. Using this technique veneer's can be added like with V-spliced or Full Spiced forearms and while most cue makers using CNC don't do it, the tips of the points can be made as sharp as a razor not rounded. For example look at Tad's cues, his points are sharp at the tips, however, they are not spliced, they are in fact Pano-inlayed and they been for many years.

Creig, I think we pretty much agree.
CNC inlayed "spliced points" is for sure something different and that is what my pictures is trying show.
The modern CNC inlayed cue (the top one in the pictures) has for me a different feeling than the preferred D22.
I do understand that customers would not like to have a inlayed spliced cue,
but the point I was trying to make was;
If some one is clever enough to program a machine to cut the fully spliced "fork" and groove points on a CNC in stead of using bandsaw,circle saw or who knows. Do that make the cue less valuable ? The same applies for inlays.

Oh and by the way, remember customers are getting allot smarter, and while some do not care how a cue is built, others certainly do. Like I said previously, Mr. Schick told me very clearly that his cutomers do not want cues with CNC points, now his customers are paying two figures plus at a minimum.

I agree that customers might think this is not as nice as sharp points. But looking at a great cue maker like Bob Dzuricky I simply can't say that his cues is not "good enough" because he use a CNC machine to cut the V grooves in the forarm.
I simply can't understand; if Mr.Schick buys a CNC machine, find some clever way of making the same spliced cues with a advanced CNC machine with the same outcome/quality/feel, why should his customers not continue to buy his cues ? And I'm not speaking about inlayed points.

I'm discussing this from a cue buyers side of view and has as mentioned not made any thing yet. But I have a little trouble to understand some of the attitudes in the marked.
It's like my grandfather which was "old school": He built a cabin far up in the mountains carrying everything on his back. Wood, fireplace and even a small wood boat to cross a small lake. When his son (my uncle) bought the first snowmobile/scooter, this was not the correct way of moving new stuff to the cabin.* you where supposed to use 3 weeks to get the correct amount of goods up there for easter and not use 1 hour to get there....

N

 

[conetip]

Cnc with a 4th axis, will allow you to make quite precisely, shapes and styles of inlays that will not be possible to make by hand.That is the new art direction. Like computers allow people to create images that could not be drawn. It is about having a vision and creating it. Using cnc to put in dots just saves time. But try making a rotated shape on a pantograph head on a thread mill is another story. For that , the cnc is much better.
When people find out what the new technology can produce, there will be people wanting that. Because it will be made for them and not available from anywhere else.
Putting your head in the sand , and say I will not do cnc inlays could be read that you do not want to learn or invest heavily in that region. It is like an artist, saying, I will not get into airbrush paint work using Harlequin paints, but the customer still is looking for that tank job that is not available. Saying well I can brush paint it yellow fading to orange for you is not the same as an airbrushed scene with Harlequin paints. The investment to do that along with the know how , takes time money and effort. And there is a cost to it all. After all no matter what you get made as a custom something, you are paying for that persons expertise and knowledge.If they share some of that knowledge be great full of what they share, But don't be insulted when asking a question and get no reply.
After all it is their livelihood.

 

[masonh]

Concerning a Full Splice. IMHO, Full Splice it is more correct for cues. Full Splice gives the best feeling of a shot, not deforming feeling of whole wood.

a common misconception.

 

[JoeyInCali]

a common misconception.

You mean glued forks are not better than threaded rods?

 

[qbilder]

Anyway, I have no pantomill, no CNC and not ever made a cue. But I would get there some time and hopefully be a good cue maker.

N

Newton, no disrespect intended to you on a personal level. You seem to have a genuine desire for knowledge & conversation. But you hardly qualify to be debating cuemaking techniques. When you have built a hundred or so marketable quality cues, then we can discuss what is hand work & what is not. And I never said CNC wasn't hand work. I argued the point that ANY machine manually operated is hand work. But no, CNC is not hand work. You can slice it & dice it & get as technical as you wish, but it's just you arguing & nothing you argue holds value until you have been there & done that. Again, no disrespect in a personal manner, just putting things into perspective. Someday you might be a cuemaker, and someday you might be a good one. If that day comes I find it highly unlikely that you'll feel the same about your words as you do now, and there will no longer be a need to discuss anything.

As for full splice VS "A" joint, I don't see it being a straight up comparison. Either will give great results if done properly & either will give poor results if done improperly. Further more, the wood choices are more of a determining factor given that either technique is done equally well. So full splice, "A" joint, no matter so long as the woods are good & technique was executed properly. This is an area where individual cuemaker quality comes into play. Some cuemakers are better than others, and their cues will be better on average than another builder's cues, no matter how they were put together.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Further more, the wood choices are more of a determining factor given that either technique is done equally well.
tap, tap , tap

 

[Newton]

Newton, no disrespect intended to you on a personal level. You seem to have a genuine desire for knowledge & conversation. But you hardly qualify to be debating cuemaking techniques. When you have built a hundred or so marketable quality cues, then we can discuss what is hand work & what is not.

Well, I was hones enough to mention that I had not made anything, but it seems like I'm not worthy having any opinions and knowledge about cues.....

And I never said CNC wasn't hand work. I argued the point that ANY machine manually operated is hand work. But no, CNC is not hand work.

Can you explain again what you mean here; First you say that you never have said that CNC wasn't hand work, then you say it's not
You also mean that pantomill is handwork but CNC is not. Did I understand you correct

You can slice it & dice it & get as technical as you wish, but it's just you arguing & nothing you argue holds value until you have been there & done that. Again, no disrespect in a personal manner, just putting things into perspective. Someday you might be a cuemaker, and someday you might be a good one. If that day comes I find it highly unlikely that you'll feel the same about your words as you do now, and there will no longer be a need to discuss anything.

I'm not sure how you mean this, but for me this sound like a old rich uncle, tapping my shoulder saying "One day you would get a nice car like this"......
These types of expressions is for me something which I have learned to live with since some in the "cue-field" seems to be firing of things like these.

I don't think it's a proper thing to do, but I'm glad I have found some here on this forum which seems to leave these types of attitude and actually discuss ideas and techniques with me without any prejudice thoughts.

As for full splice VS "A" joint, I don't see it being a straight up comparison.

I'm sorry, I think you have misunderstood me. I did never say anything in you sentence. I was wondering what type of definition my cue would get since it has a metal coupling in the middle of the splice not like a regular A joint . I have 9 different cues, many CNC inlaid point's but the old D22 is the one I love to play with

Either will give great results if done properly & either will give poor results if done improperly. Further more, the wood choices are more of a determining factor given that either technique is done equally well. So full splice, "A" joint, no matter so long as the woods are good & technique was executed properly. This is an area where individual cuemaker quality comes into play. Some cuemakers are better than others, and their cues will be better on average than another builder's cues, no matter how they were put together.

You pretty much repeat my statement and view on custom cuemakers I made in a earlier post under this thread. This was the whole point I was trying to make. The custom cuemakers knowledge of wood combinations and way of joining these together is MY view on how a great cue is born. If the cuemaker use CNC to put inlays in it - fine it's a tool which makes it easier for them to make a artistic expression in the designs.
For me this is still "handwork" and I would not be writing them of in any sense.

I understand that I'm not "dry behind my ears" in respect of cue building in some eyes and should therefor not have any ideas or thought about cues until I have made 100s and herby pulls from further discussion of the subject.
As mentioned, it's like discussing religion, everybody has one, it's the best and those with different opinions has always wrong, has not read the book or done something else wrong.

O, by the way, here is a picture of my machine which would be delivered in 3 weeks time.

N

 

[qbilder]

Well, I was hones enough to mention that I had not made anything, but it seems like I'm not worthy having any opinions and knowledge about cues.....


Can you explain again what you mean here; First you say that you never have said that CNC wasn't hand work, then you say it's not
You also mean that pantomill is handwork but CNC is not. Did I understand you correct



I'm not sure how you mean this, but for me this sound like a old rich uncle, tapping my shoulder saying "One day you would get a nice car like this"......
These types of expressions is for me something which I have learned to live with since some in the "cue-field" seems to be firing of things like these.

I don't think it's a proper thing to do, but I'm glad I have found some here on this forum which seems to leave these types of attitude and actually discuss ideas and techniques with me without any prejudice thoughts.



I'm sorry, I think you have misunderstood me. I did never say anything in you sentence. I was wondering what type of definition my cue would get since it has a metal coupling in the middle of the splice not like a regular A joint . I have 9 different cues, many CNC inlaid point's but the old D22 is the one I love to play with



You pretty much repeat my statement and view on custom cuemakers I made in a earlier post under this thread. This was the whole point I was trying to make. The custom cuemakers knowledge of wood combinations and way of joining these together is MY view on how a great cue is born. If the cuemaker use CNC to put inlays in it - fine it's a tool which makes it easier for them to make a artistic expression in the designs.
For me this is still "handwork" and I would not be writing them of in any sense.

I understand that I'm not "dry behind my ears" in respect of cue building in some eyes and should therefor not have any ideas or thought about cues until I have made 100s and herby pulls from further discussion of the subject.
As mentioned, it's like discussing religion, everybody has one, it's the best and those with different opinions has always wrong, has not read the book or done something else wrong.

O, by the way, here is a picture of my machine which would be delivered in 3 weeks time.

N

Wow, you don't want to stop picking, do you? I am at no position nor inclination to discuss/argue cuemaking with you. You are not a cuemaker, and therefore do not have the experience to even understand the things I would say. It doesn't matter how smart you think you are or how much you think you know cues. Until you build them you don't know enough about construction to argue it. Nevertheless, here you are nit picking anyway. I'm trying not to be rude, but you seem to not be understanding what i'm telling you. I don't care if you are ever going to become a cuemaker or not, and until you do I do not feel the inclination to go into a pissing contest about techniques & petty definitions.

Here are my thoughts. CNC is NOT handwork. Full splice is no better than any other joinery. A full splice can be executed using many techniques & still be sufficient. No matter what is truth, that is my take on things. You nor anybody else is going to change my opinions. So now you can keep picking & poking the petty stuff if you feel the need. But i'm not participating in silly forum pissing contests, so please stop addressing me & trying to go that direction.

Again, i'm not trying to be rude. I'm trying to be clear. So please make a point to understand.

 

[BLACKHEARTCUES]

Newton, hello from one Norski to another ( my Mothers maden name was Peterson). I have gone back & reread all of the posts, including yours. I have sold Mcdermott cues since 1982 & have sold many of the D22 model. I have been repairing these cues since 1984. I have been making my own BLACK HEART CUES since 1986. Now during all of this time I have repaired a LOT of D22 cues. I have been to the factory & seen them being made. THEY WERE NEVER MADE AS A FULL SPLICED FOREARM. They, like all of the Mcdermotts made in their US factory, are "V" bottomed points, in a short splice. Which means that the forearm is made independently & then attached to the handle section with a wooden tenen & screw. As for the "hand made" aspect of cuemaking. Many cuemakers have a CNC machine that you can join the handle & the forearm wood together, load it into their machine hit the button & come back in a short time & they have 6 basic cues cut to final size. There is NO "HAND WORK" involved. Now change the program & hit the same button & in a short time the machine has cut all of the pockets for all of the inlays for 6 cues. Do you think that that factory deserves to be called "HAND MADE"? All cuemakers use machines. Some actually MOVE & guide their machines, using thier hands. I don't have a name for that, other than in my case, a "BLACK HEART POOL CUE". If I have over simplified the CNC process, I appologize in advance. These are 6 cue machines, that I have seen work, but have never used. I personally love some of the intricate designs made by CNC. I have even MORE respect for those who have VERY intricate designs WITHOUT the use of the CNC. JMO...JER

 

[poolpro]

Buy whatever suits you

I have had this conversation many times before. In my opinion it comes down to this: People like the idea of a "handmade cue". It feels more "special" because someone took more time to make it. It is a fondness for a traditional item. Like old handmade furniture. People appreciate the "old world" feel of methods coming from a simpler time. I think this leads to many misconceptions.

First off "hand made" is ridiculous. I do not know any cuemkers sitting down with a pocket knife and a couple of carving tools and whittlling down a length of wood into a cue. So no cue is hand made. Cuemaking is an art in my opinion. The art is in the design and execution of that design by whatever means gets a superior product. A CNC cue is still made much like a non CNC cue untill you get to the inlays. Everyone on here knows that inlays do not add ANYTHING to the playability of a cue. So why would it matter how you decorate a quality cue? At what point in its construction does this cue "become" less than a handmade cue?

I have been in various trades for most of my life. I have worked in assembly line factories, I have done custom woodworking and carpentry. I have a knowledge of design and manufacturing. My simple question is why would you fault a craftsman for using the finest tools and techniques available to him? For all of you tradinalists out there, do you think that the people making things the "old world " way did so because they wanted to do things the hard way, or because it was the best method they had available at the time?

I LOVE THIS LINE OF THOUGHT, BECAUSE WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IS ESSENTIALLY A "TOOL". SO WHILE TALKING ABOUT HOW IMPORTANT HAVING THE BEST AVAILABLE "TOOL" FOR US TO USE, WE SAY THAT USING THE BEST AVAILABLE TOOLS IS NOT IMPORTANT, AND SHOULD BE DISCOURAGED. DOES ANYBODY ELSE SEE THIS AS CRAZY?

It is the same reason why people appreciate classic cars. It brings back all the great memories of a simpler time. Even though we now have fuel injection, anti lock brakes and air bags, these new cars just don't have the same "charm". This is a PERCEPTION. This is not an issue of quality. In this example, it is a mass produced item. Thousands of chevys were made, all identical to each other. We are not appreciting anything hand made at all. There is a perception that they don't make em like they used to.

I have done the same woodworking jobs with and without the best tools available to me. In each case I have done the best job that I was able to do to deliver best quality product to my customer. I used to build custom cabinets and countertops. At one time I pretty much had a handfull of hand tools and a router table, and a bench saw. I got the job done, no complaints. Later on I had a shop full of tools and machines. I was able to do the same things much better and faster than I ever could have before. The end result was a BETTER product in less time. I had gigantic sanders, and shapers. These were MORE precise and faster. The sanders were still using sand paper against the wood, but more consistant and less time. Why would you possibly care if I held that piece of sandpaper in my hand or not?

Let's suppose you hire two carpenters to come to your house and due the trim in two different rooms. One shows up with a hand saw, a miter box, hammer and nails, the other shows up with a power compound miter saw, a nail gun, and a compressor. Who are you going to hire? Now, the first guy will be done in a day, the other guy will take much longer.

I just think it is weird that when it comes to cues, precision is what most people are looking for, but when there is a way to increase precision, people say "why would I want that?".

Do you want a cuemaker who uses a micrometer or a "that looks pretty close to me" attitude? Pool has been around a long time. Longer than vulcanized rubber. I think we should all boycott rubber cushions. I think knowing a predictable rebound angle is for the young kids. Just a passing fad. Lets play my game: ivory balls, no rubber cushions, no leather cue tips, no woven cloth. Let's really get traditional.

I FEAR CHANGE!

I love tradition. I appreciate it for what it is. I drool over classic cars, antique cues, and vintage guitars. Just don't knock a craftsman for trying to give his customers the best quality product that he knows how to in the most practical way he can. Most of the people in any industry who are remebered are the pioneers. Why? Because they were always searching to find a new, better way to do something. They develop new methods and strive to make a btter product. What kills me is the most well known cuemaker BOUGHT his blanks from other makers ( talk about saving time!).

Again, no disrespect to anyone. If you "feel" that the more primitive the better than go ahead. I have a pocket knife, and some time to kill, anyone want a cue?

 

[manwon]

First off "hand made" is ridiculous. I do not know any cuemkers sitting down with a pocket knife and a couple of carving tools and whittlling down a length of wood into a cue.

Your statements above are also a misconception, the Master Craftsman of old, more than you are admitting did basically build their cues by hand. The early cue makers, in some cases built their lathes, and most certainly built or modified the tools they used for their craft, and yes pocket knives were most likely used during the process.

Today hand made go's hand in hand with traditional construction method's. These methods have produced cues throughout the 100 years that are revered by all who see them. With this said, using limited machinery of any kind certainly took much longer to produce a finished product with. It also was a skill that few could master to a level where they were even accepted as a craftsman.

Now jump forward to the 1990's, computer technology began to jump to levels unheard of in any other time. These jumps directly effected all forms of manufacturing including cue construction. With the advent of computer driven equipment and the wide variety of programmer's filtering into the Field prices for this technology began to drop to within reach of home craftsmen.

Now jump forward to now, many traditional cue making techniques are no longer being used. Some have been improved upon, and some have been cast a side because they consume to much time, and to most time is not as important as the money that can be made by doing something faster. I think CNC technology used for operating machines is a precise method when used to build cues, however, I do not prefer or use it. There is no secret to this technology, it only requires the purchase of equipment, and the programing of the equipment for the operations desired. The cost is well within reach of almost anyone who wants to use these techniques to increase their production, and this is the main purpose of this equipment. Along with uniquely inlay-ed designs that may have been near unobtainable in years past, to all but a few Masters of their craft.

With this equipment many who would not consider cue making are trying thier hand at it. Now, as most cue makers already know there is much more to building a quality cue than just turning wood and gluing up tenon's. Today many people are trying their hand at cue making, and many are building cues that at first glance look real nice. A major factor in this is the use of CNC controlled machines, which make visual perfection much easier to obtain. However, assembling a cue will not make you a cue maker. Only by understanding, all aspects of the craft, by making unique products, and by attaining a following for your individual products, and most importantly the way their hit is perceived by the final user (your customer). By acheiving the above is the only way that anyone can be called a Master Cue Maker, not by pro-claiming yourself one. In my opinion very few people qualify for this title today, mainly again in my opinion, because they buy most of their materials ready to use, because they do not have the ability to make their own point blanks or even totally turn their wood from squares to round, and because there is nothing unique about the products that they assemble.

I know many will not agree with my take on this, and that is OK, because to me the only thing and only the people who are important are the customers. They are the one's and the only one's who can say who is and who is not a master at any task. In cue building this is what separates an assembler for a true cue builder and the all the machinery in the world, and the number of cues they have made can not change this simple fact!!!!!

Have a good night!!!!