I'll be fkkn damned.Patrick Johnson said:
Thnx
I just looked at it with my polka dot cueball.
It is close to a third ball rotation.
Rep points for u.
Replace OB With CB
- Thread starter JE54
- Start date
Thnx
I just looked at it with my polka dot cueball.
It is close to a third ball rotation.
Rep points for u.
Off with his head! This shot does not require any elbow drop, from any distance!JoeyInCali said:From doing it, I can only do it when I exaggerate the elbow drop.
A crime to some people.
I agree that this shot is much more difficult than a simple stop shot, especially at longer distances...and imo overrated by Bert (he says it's the most important shot in pool! LOL). If you REALLY want to practice this shot you need to use those little sticky hole reinforcers. Place your OB on the reinforcer and then practice replacing it with the CB. The CB must land EXACTLY on the hole reinforcer for it to technically be the "replacement" shot described by Kinister.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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You gotta show me how next time.Scott Lee said:
You really have to hit it pure. On Bert's 60 Minute 9 Ball Workout tape he swears, as Scott says, it is the most important shot. But it is funny because, as Joey says, it is a short table. I'm not even sure that it is bar table size. It looks like it only takes Bert 2 1/2 steps from one end of the table to the other end. Good tape though.
JE54 said:
But what he says on the tape is to hit a dead level, center ball stroke but that was on a 7 ft. table with HIS stroke so it's pretty misleading for 8 or 9 ft. tables and someone else's stroke.
So, as others have pointed out, figure out your speed and tip position for a stop shot and then adjust your tip position up slightly and you'll get the run through.
Scott Lee said:
I agree that this shot is much more difficult than a simple stop shot, especially at longer distances...and imo overrated by Bert (he says it's the most important shot in pool! LOL). If you REALLY want to practice this shot you need to use those little sticky hole reinforcers. Place your OB on the reinforcer and then practice replacing it with the CB. The CB must land EXACTLY on the hole reinforcer for it to technically be the "replacement" shot described by Kinister.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott, I don't think is reference to "the most important shot in pool" was based on the theory that it comes up all that often or that you must EXACTLY replace the OB.
Rather, he makes the excellent point that most of us routinely hit shots too hard and that we often have only a fairly general idea about exact tip contact on the CB.
You can't do the shot with excessive speed and based on the shot's distance you have to vary the tip contact very precisely.
Bert is cerrtainly prone to overstatements but I think it is an excellent drill.
Regards,
Jim
Patrick Johnson said:
Reminds me of a story - We were 13--my best friend & I--and in math class. Though always knowledgeable and now a physics professor, my friend was a second-rate student at the time, and really didn't pay much attention to school.
While my friend was talking to me, Mr. Cerrone was holding up a circle and a string the length of the diameter of the circle.
"How many times will it take this string to go around the circle?" he asked
"two!" one kid shot out
The teacher tried it --it was more than two.
"how about three?" someone else said.
My friend was paying no attention at all during any of this. Finally a pissed, fed up teacher barked out...
"RINZLER, YOU'RE SO SMART. HOW MANY TIMES WILL IT TAKE FOR THIS STRING TO MAKE IT AROUND THE CIRCLE???"
My friend looked up kinda dazed like someone just waking up in the morning, and he said,
"three point one four one five nine two seven six nine zero seven two six four three one one six four six five nine, or thereabouts"
He later told me he only knew the answer to seven or eight places, but he figured the teacher didn't know it any more than that, so he made up about a dozen more.
JMO...
Play straight pool and you will HAVE TO learn this shot.
This is why I say that is essential to have a firm foundation of 14.1 in your game. Most of today's players seem to want to settle for a 9 ball or 8 ball foundation, and this is why these questions always come up. 14.1 is by far the game's best teacher - by using it as a practice tool and a measuring stick for your game, it will start to strengthen your skills in every other game - including 9 ball.
also...
Pat is correct, it is around 1/3...
Play straight pool and you will HAVE TO learn this shot.
This is why I say that is essential to have a firm foundation of 14.1 in your game. Most of today's players seem to want to settle for a 9 ball or 8 ball foundation, and this is why these questions always come up. 14.1 is by far the game's best teacher - by using it as a practice tool and a measuring stick for your game, it will start to strengthen your skills in every other game - including 9 ball.
also...
Pat is correct, it is around 1/3...
av84fun said:
The original poster makes it clear that a stop-shot is not what he's referring to - that he wants the cueball to replace the object ball so I will assume he means exactly 2.25" (give or take .5"). There are just so many variables with a shot like this that there is no single piece of advice. You must consider cloth, weight of the cueball (even Super Aramiths will vary), distance objectball must travel, distance cueball must travel.
Now, this may sound trivial but you must remember, there is a high probability you will be off-target the greater the distance is between cueball and objectball. It becomes unpractical especially when you consider that the stop-shot has an overwhelmingly big margin of error - You can use an identical stroke for a stop shot whether the object ball is 3 feet away or 5 feet away.
I just get the feeling he's not being practical. I understand that by placing high standards, you reach high goals but it's also important to think in terms of percentages when making decisions. As Blackjack pointed out, this is a critical shot in straight pool but that's really when you're playing short shots. If there's any distance involved, even a couple feet, it just becomes way too difficult and low percentage.
I, as the original poster was not being impractical (?). I had seen somewhere Bert Kinester saying that you show know how to do the shot.
Well I didn't know how to do it. So I asked. Judging by the numerous posts there are many different opinions as to how the shot should be done.
Its nice that so many knowledgeable people are willing to give their thoughts and suggestions.
Well I didn't know how to do it. So I asked. Judging by the numerous posts there are many different opinions as to how the shot should be done.
Its nice that so many knowledgeable people are willing to give their thoughts and suggestions.
I agree with many who say that precisely replacing the OB with the CB is a fairly trouchy shot, and requires much control and practice. I won't add how else you can stroke the CB such that you achieve that desired result.
However, what I will add is that for many of those shots (where the needs CB to replace the OB for the following shot), you can achieve a desired result by simply playing a stun shot and cheating the pocket.
Above is a shot where ideally you'd want the CB to replace the position of the 1 ball for a clear shot on the 2. So, you can test your nerves (and try your luck) attempting to play such a feel shot rolling the CB a ball's width after contact with the 1.
However, for this particular layout, there isn't only one precise spot the CB can fall to get position on the 2. Actually, the CB can fall in any number of spots provided it's on the blue (bolded) line.
For me, a MUCH easier shot would be to play a stun shot, and cheat the left side of the pocket. Since the shot is still fairly straight-in, you can let your stroke out to stun the CB a couple ball's widths to the right. This not only increases the margin of error of the "feel" required in your stroke, it also increases the positioning margin of error since the CB will be moving more in the line of the next shot (instead of moving across it). So you win two-fold. Of course, the drawback is that you have to be more precise in terms of pocketing, since you will be cheating the pocket.
Obviously not all the required shots fall into this category (the 1 ball might be too far away from the pocket to reliably cheat the pocket, or you might have interfering balls on the side of the 1 ball), but lots of them do. Just an outside-the-box viewpoint.
However, what I will add is that for many of those shots (where the needs CB to replace the OB for the following shot), you can achieve a desired result by simply playing a stun shot and cheating the pocket.
Above is a shot where ideally you'd want the CB to replace the position of the 1 ball for a clear shot on the 2. So, you can test your nerves (and try your luck) attempting to play such a feel shot rolling the CB a ball's width after contact with the 1.
However, for this particular layout, there isn't only one precise spot the CB can fall to get position on the 2. Actually, the CB can fall in any number of spots provided it's on the blue (bolded) line.
For me, a MUCH easier shot would be to play a stun shot, and cheat the left side of the pocket. Since the shot is still fairly straight-in, you can let your stroke out to stun the CB a couple ball's widths to the right. This not only increases the margin of error of the "feel" required in your stroke, it also increases the positioning margin of error since the CB will be moving more in the line of the next shot (instead of moving across it). So you win two-fold. Of course, the drawback is that you have to be more precise in terms of pocketing, since you will be cheating the pocket.
Obviously not all the required shots fall into this category (the 1 ball might be too far away from the pocket to reliably cheat the pocket, or you might have interfering balls on the side of the 1 ball), but lots of them do. Just an outside-the-box viewpoint.
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Nice post.jsp said:
pj
chgo
Thanks.Patrick Johnson said:
Don't you know that when I first started posting here, the infamous Drivermaker thought that I was you, with your initials reversed? Lol. What a character.
But then Cornerman (Fred) jumped in and said, no...that can't be Pat, he would never use those ridiculous emoticons. Hehe.
Patrick Johnson said:
The variable relating to the distance between cb and ob was already pointed out in two posts earlier than yours. In addition, ignoring all the advice about where to hit the cb is particularly bad advice since doing so is one of the two widely accepted methods of executing the shot.* Try hitting a stop shot or a 1 ball width run through with center ball from a 5 diamond distance.
* See Standard Book, Byrne, page 62
I think that your advice to imagine a ghost ball and attempt a stop shot on it is highly artificial.
In addition, the logic of your approach is faulty. If, in fact, the player has the skill to execute a stop shot on a fictitious ghost ball, then the same player can execute a stop shot on the actual ball with equal precision...,greater actually given that the target is actual rather than imagined.
That being the case, then the shooter, with practice, can adjust the tip contact point and/or the pace of the shot so as to achieve the run through...by slowing the pace and/or using a lower tip contact position.
The most sought after skills in pool include the ability to both estimate and execute the correct tip-to-cb contact point and to correlate that point with speed to achieve an intended outcome.
Finally, with respect to your advice..."You should probably ignore all the advice about where to hit the CB because that's heavily dependent on the length of the shot."
...the ability to estimate tip contact position to compensate for cb roll distance is the whole point of the drill and the adjustment of tip contact position and pace for varying distances is what the drills trains for.
Regards,
Jim
So what? Is this more of your endless, silly attempts to show me up?
Doing what is one of the two widely accepted methods? Hitting the CB at a certain height regardless of speed and distance? That's the advice that was being given - you seem to agree with me that it's bad advice, but you don't seem to understand that's what I said. Maybe if you hesitated every now and then before jumping in with both feet to try to prove me wrong...
My technique obviously counts on having the ability to shoot stop shots. How is that faulty logic?
Yes, and my technique is a way to visualize that so it might be achieved more quickly. If you'd try to understand what I'm saying rather than focusing solely on trying to show me wrong about something, you might make a fool of yourself less often (you might even learn something).
pj
chgo
You've taken remedial reading once already? That's sad.
Yes, and the ball rotates about 1/3 of a full revolution to get from point A to point B when those points are one diameter (2.25 inches) apart, as in the shot being discussed ("replacing" the OB with the CB). If the ball rotated a full revolution, it would travel the distance of its circumference, a little over 7 inches, and would end up more than two diameters past the target position. All you have to do is try it.
Will there be a "truce" afterward?
pj
chgo
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Patrick Johnson said:
Well, THANKS for proving the point that was already obvious. It is YOU who have such a fagile ego that you simply cannot resist replying in an impudent, sarcastic and often ridiculous fashion.
My post to you was as I said it would be. On point, thoughtful and gentlemanly. But you seem entirely unable to restrain your arrogance as you above comments...and mine to which you replied will forever testify.
Quote: Me
The variable relating to the distance between cb and ob was already pointed out in two posts earlier than yours.
Quote: You
So what? Is this more of your endless, silly attempts to show me up?
No, it is just ANOTHER in a LONG series of posts wherein you adopt the advice previously given by others in the thread as your own. Doing so is why the word "redundant" was coined. And you should at least have the decency to attribute your re-hashed comments to their sources.
Quote: Me
In addition, ignoring all the advice about where to hit the cb is particularly bad advice since doing so is one of the two widely accepted methods of executing the shot
Quote: You
Doing what is one of the two widely accepted methods?
There's that old remedial reading problem of yours again. Get out your hardly used Dick and Jane or My Weekly Reader and practice up...THEN READ MY COMMENT AGAIN and all will become clear to you (over-optimistic as that statement might be).
Quote: Me
... the logic of your approach is faulty. If, in fact, the player has the skill to execute a stop shot on a fictitious ghost ball, then the same player can execute a stop shot on the actual ball with equal precision...,greater actually given that the target is actual rather than imagined.
Quote: You
My technique obviously counts on having the ability to shoot stop shots. How is that faulty logic?
When you stop dancing, re-read my pervious reply.
Quote: Me
That being the case, then the shooter, with practice, can adjust the tip contact point and/or the pace of the shot so as to achieve the run through...by slowing the pace and/or using a lower tip contact position.
Quote: You
Yes, and my technique is a way to visualize that so it might be achieved more quickly. If you'd try to understand what I'm saying rather than focusing solely on trying to show me wrong about something, you might make a fool of yourself less often (you might even learn something).
That is clearly your opinion and you are entitled to it, in spite of the fact that it defies self-evident logic in numerous ways.
Just for example...because I really do want to help you avoid further embarrassment, if the shooter doesn't achieve the intended run through using your imaginary, fictitious and unrealistic advice, how would he/she know whether the "stop shot" on the fictitious ball would have actually stopped??
Of course, I am SURE that you have put your "imaginary friend" system through extensive scientific testing so that you know precisely how far your imaginary friend must be from the actual OB in order to achieve exactly a 2.25 inch cb run through after your fictitious stop shot.
So, please post your methodology and data series so that your peers may study your method.
In the meantime, I'll just hit a REAL stop shot...on a REAL ball and observe, factually, whether it stopped at the point of impact or not and then adjust pace/tip contact position accordingly.
Finally, please know that I take no particular pleasure in correcting you...which seems increasingly necessary.
But really...do as you have been advised by others repeatedly...bone up on that reading thing...and learn how to name the person whose comments you are quoting. It's really not hard...much easier...REALLY...than shooting stop shots on imaginary balls.
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