Replace OB With CB

BRKNRUN said:
I get the impression that you are mocking me a bit here, but I will answer anyway.

The EXACT REPLACEMENT (which is the subject of this thread) may only come up once in a blue moon.

However....(and I am sure this is the very first time this has ever happened in the history of a forum thread) The topic expanded a bit beyond just that 1 specific shot.

I was only supporting the whole thread direction which had expanded on this shot and related it to its very close cousin (The Stop Shot)

I felt that the Stop Shot response was well founded and attempted to expand on that by explaining "why" it is important to know the Stop Shot first.....(Basically because in my opinion the "stun release" as I call it is based on knowing what stroke to apply for a Stop Shot and then adjusting ever so slighty in your contact point on the CB)

I have NEVER claimed to be a "elite" player, but I have studied MANY and I can tell you with out a doubt that the better a player gets is determined on how well he/she controls the CB.

(There or TONS of players that can pocket balls all over the table)

It does not need to come up many times in a match for it to be of significant importance.

I am Sorry if I deviated from the EXACT topic of discussion.
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KEN...I was in NO WAY mocking you and apologize if I gave you that impression.

The purpose of my question to you was in response to another poster who rather stridently insists that the "exact replacement" shot is an absolutely necessary shot to learn because...according to him...it comes up frequently in the position play.

That was the only purpsose of my question to you and thanks for confirming that, in your experience, it does not come up very often.

Best regards,
Jim
 
There is always something personal in your responses
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Here's my entire response to you - the one you whined about. Show me the personal part. Show me where I even disagreed with you.

Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson
This is hard to say clearly and correctly because of ambiguous terms such as "aiming point" and "contact point". A half ball hit is the hit you get when you shoot with half ball aim, which is aiming with a half ball overlap. The "aiming point" could be either the edge or the center of the OB, depending on which part of the CB you're aiming at it (center or edge, respectively). The contact point is, of course, always the same - it's half way from the OB center to its edge when viewed from the CB's perspective, but it's only 1/3 of the way from the OB's center to its edge when measured around the OB's circumference (this is why it gives a 30-degree cut angle).

pj
chgo
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There's a small group of you (you, av84fun and pdcue) who can't take any response from me - even something as innocuous as this - without getting your panties in a bunch. Your oversensitivity somehow undermines your reading comprehension.

pj
chgo
 
av84fun said:
KEN...I was in NO WAY mocking you and apologize if I gave you that impression.

The purpose of my question to you was in response to another poster who rather stridently insists that the "exact replacement" shot is an absolutely necessary shot to learn because...according to him...it comes up frequently in the position play.

That was the only purpsose of my question to you and thanks for confirming that, in your experience, it does not come up very often.

Best regards,
Jim
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NP. now I understand the intent of you post.

IMO the specific "exact replacement" shot does not come up very often (if at all in a months worth of play) I guess it would need to be a straight in (or very near) straight in shot for the exact replacement to even apply.

"variations" of that shot come up on a more frequent basis. Probably the most variations would be seen in a 1-pocket game.....again IMO.:)
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
There must be many examples of this you can quote. Let's see one.

pj
chgo
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Don't be silly. There is no point in illuminating the obvious...although you do that with some frequency.
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> There are several here that have spent time with Bert,who first noted the importance of this stroke technique. The important thing with this shot is that you are continually striving for the precise cue ball reaction that causes the end result,as a result of the stroke becoming a consistent physical motion,much like a rifle action. Whether you believe it or not,it is this consistency in your pure physical stroke that seperates the great players like Buddy and Sigel from the rest of us,doing exactly what you want when you want comes in handy when you have to truly "split hairs".

I've probably shot this shot as Bert diagrammed it 5-6000 times,and I have found that it CAN be reproduced from virtually ANY distance,sometimes varying tip position,speed,and follow-thru length. Shoot it at 4 diamonds in length,regardless of table size,and use a striped ball,with the stripe placed as close to dead horizontal as possible. What the stripe will show you once you hit it a few times really good,is that the best results come when the combination of the speed of stroke and tip position produces a cue ball reaction that spins backwards slightly at first,decays into slide,and contacts the object ball just as it's starting the 3rd phase of cue ball movement,natural end-over-end roll. Tommy D.
 
BRKNRUN said:
NP. now I understand the intent of you post.

IMO the specific "exact replacement" shot does not come up very often (if at all in a months worth of play) I guess it would need to be a straight in (or very near) straight in shot for the exact replacement to even apply.

"variations" of that shot come up on a more frequent basis. Probably the most variations would be seen in a 1-pocket game.....again IMO.:)
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again, the one ball forward will come up as much as a stop shot, as much as 2 balls forward, 2 balls back (as bob noted), etc. this is because of the arbitrary nature of an object balls location. but, this is all assuming that you can recognize the best and most desirable angle (for your game) to get to the next ball. if you don't know those ideal angles then you tend to see just stop shots and favor that over subtle movements. this is a huge error and if you disagree you just need to listen and improve, or alternatively, don't listen and don't improve (i start to see why so many people play so bad however, they think they are right but meanwhile they play bad, listen!).

this is why you see so many of the guys on TV insisting their partners put them here or put them there etc..... if these "general areas" for cb placement were acceptable to top pros, why would they be requesting these position all the time?? it's because they have learned to get the angle that is best for them to get to the next ball

i state here that the statement made by av84fun that "great players stop the cueball in general locations because they have the skill to use spin and speed to control the english for their next shot..... whereas lesser players play much more precise position because they need to because they don't play as good" is the most foolish statement i've ever read on AZ billiards. again, the worst statement ever. i only mention it because it's a forum for people to learn in and people should not listen to people like this, take not of it!

even if say scott is right, and it comes up once in 100 shots (i'll just accept that number for right now to make a point), that's two of those shots, maybe 3 in a race to 11 that goes hill hill. 2 or three shots!!!! that could be the whole match if you're a good player. just like a length of the table draw could come up once or twice in 100 shots, that doesn't mean the shot is not of great importance. you gotta be able to execute it.
 
Tommy-D said:
> There are several here that have spent time with Bert,who first noted the importance of this stroke technique. The important thing with this shot is that you are continually striving for the precise cue ball reaction that causes the end result,as a result of the stroke becoming a consistent physical motion,much like a rifle action. Whether you believe it or not,it is this consistency in your pure physical stroke that seperates the great players like Buddy and Sigel from the rest of us,doing exactly what you want when you want comes in handy when you have to truly "split hairs".

I've probably shot this shot as Bert diagrammed it 5-6000 times,and I have found that it CAN be reproduced from virtually ANY distance,sometimes varying tip position,speed,and follow-thru length. Shoot it at 4 diamonds in length,regardless of table size,and use a striped ball,with the stripe placed as close to dead horizontal as possible. What the stripe will show you once you hit it a few times really good,is that the best results come when the combination of the speed of stroke and tip position produces a cue ball reaction that spins backwards slightly at first,decays into slide,and contacts the object ball just as it's starting the 3rd phase of cue ball movement,natural end-over-end roll. Tommy D.
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Excellent description Tommy. But since the issue of the shot coming up as an often necessary position shot has become part of the thread, how many times in 100 shots do you find the need to shoot that shot to get better position than could be obtained by any other shot?

Thanks,
Jim
 
enzo said:
again, the one ball forward will come up as much as a stop shot, as much as 2 balls forward, 2 balls back (as bob noted), etc. this is because of the arbitrary nature of an object balls location. but, this is all assuming that you can recognize the best and most desirable angle (for your game) to get to the next ball. if you don't know those ideal angles then you tend to see just stop shots and favor that over subtle movements. this is a huge error and if you disagree you just need to listen and improve, or alternatively, don't listen and don't improve (i start to see why so many people play so bad however, they think they are right but meanwhile they play bad, listen!).

this is why you see so many of the guys on TV insisting their partners put them here or put them there etc..... if these "general areas" for cb placement were acceptable to top pros, why would they be requesting these position all the time?? it's because they have learned to get the angle that is best for them to get to the next ball

i state here that the statement made by av84fun that "great players stop the cueball in general locations because they have the skill to use spin and speed to control the english for their next shot..... whereas lesser players play much more precise position because they need to because they don't play as good" is the most foolish statement i've ever read on AZ billiards. again, the worst statement ever. i only mention it because it's a forum for people to learn in and people should not listen to people like this, take not of it!

even if say scott is right, and it comes up once in 100 shots (i'll just accept that number for right now to make a point), that's two of those shots, maybe 3 in a race to 11 that goes hill hill. 2 or three shots!!!! that could be the whole match if you're a good player. just like a length of the table draw could come up once or twice in 100 shots, that doesn't mean the shot is not of great importance. you gotta be able to execute it.
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HUH???? ARE YOU ON DOPE??????? Or are you just a dope...who doesn't even know how to quote people properly. I never stated anything resembling your butchered version.

Here is what I stated:

"Position is most often quite acceptable within a ZONE wherein it is unnecessary to achieve any one EXACT spot. The skillful player can manage pace and spin off the next ob from anywhere in the zone in order to fall correctly on the next ob, whereas, the less skillful player might need...as you suggest...to achieve some exact spot."

The reason some pros point to an exact spot is that they want to create a TARGET you MORON...but they don't run screaming in tears from the table if they don't land on that particular spot.

If you've never heard of zone position than you have no clue what you are talking about...which, by the way, you have pretty well already established.

But your MELTDOWN began when you posted the followiing...which I quote verbatim..."wow, respectfully, replacing the ob comes up A LOT, at least if you are playing good position and safties it does."

Your PROBLEM is that highly respected players, including one of the BEST instructors on the planet...don't happen to agree with you so you post bitter little defensive posts.

You are just WRONG...and so far, NO poster has agreed with your ridiculous premise that the EXACT REPLACEMENT shot comes up "a lot" because IT DOESN'T


You don't even know how to use the ignore fearture,,,you twit...but when you do PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR LIST!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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enzo, enzo, enzo...."even if say scott is right, and it comes up once in 100 shots (i'll just accept that number for right now to make a point), that's two of those shots, maybe 3 in a race to 11 that goes hill hill. 2 or three shots!!!! that could be the whole match if you're a good player. just like a length of the table draw could come up once or twice in 100 shots, that doesn't mean the shot is not of great importance. you gotta be able to execute it."

In the big leagues, it is likely that 1 ball is made on the break, on average. So, in the average match, there are only 8 balls per rack to make.

NOW, take a DEEP breath...and try to understand that position is NOT REQUIRED ON THE 9 BALL...You with me so far???? Good boy.

That leaves 7 balls where shape is a factor or a total of 70 position shots for each player at hill/hill (you see 7x10=70) and only 77 for the winner.

SO, there was an entire race to 11, hill/hill match and your silly little example HAS NOT COME UP ONCE!!!!!!!!!!!! Which is exactly what you will see...on average...when you watch ANY race to 11...which usually do not go hill/hill.

And what about those pesky races to 9?

And Scott was just trying to be polite when he discussed the rarity of that shot even in a series of 100.

REMEMBER BUBBLE BRAIN...the shot must be made from a virtually straight in position...and pros don't like falling straight on a object ball. It makes them VERY CRANKY when they do.

So, to make your silly proposition true, the shooter must have made a mistake getting straight in or getting straight in was his ONLY option...and then the replacement shot was ALSO his only option on the next ball.

ONE IN FIVE HUNDRED is a more likely scenario.

Your choice now is to man up and ADMIT that your initial proposition was not correct or dig your credibility hole even deeper than it already is.

)-:

Slip slidin' away...slip slidin' away.....
 
cigardave said:
Why don't both of you guys just drop trou and let's have a REAL pissin' contest!!!
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I would be happy to engage Patrick in any contest...even though is name is JOHNSON! (-:

Seriously though, I have proposed a truce to him on two separate occasions and he has responded with further insults.

The difference...it seems to me...is that I am just kidding around but he seems to take it so seriously that one wonders about his ego strength and self-confidence. But with respect to his speed at pool, I am led to believe on reliable authority, that self-confidence is not something he ought to have much of!

(-:
 
just so you know i have you on ignore av8, i just saw 4 posts and wanted to tell you don't do any more work for me because i can't read any of them, i simply don't want to pollute my mind with any more ill-conceived logic. i suggest others, especially beginners, do the same.
 
enzo said:
just so you know i have you on ignore av8, i just saw 4 posts and wanted to tell you don't do any more work for me because i can't read any of them, i simply don't want to pollute my mind with any more ill-conceived logic. i suggest others, especially beginners, do the same.
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Well, fortunately for you then, you won't see this comment.


It is a little sad, and quite telling, that you insult the intelligence and skills of a HIGHLY RESPECTED instructor by suggesting that he doesn't know what he is talking about...especially when it involves a shot that NO ONE has agreed is anywher near as prevalent as you say it is.

Then grossly misquote me...which is a self-evident FACT...and then go run behind the ignore button....or so you say.

Why don't you just admit you are wrong? Do you suffer from Godnadal Shrivelitis???
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Tommy-D...Bert was not the first person to note the "importance" of the replacement shot. He was just the first to try to capitalize on it, with a video for sale! :D That shot's been around for a hundred years, and any good player knows about it. The level of it's importance is what's debatable. I have to agree with Bob Jewett, that it's just another shot in your arsenal, along with rolling up 2-3 balls, and backing up 2-3 balls. All of this is still based on the stopshot as the foundation...which IS the most important shot! njmo

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Tommy-D said:
> There are several here that have spent time with Bert,who first noted the importance of this stroke technique.
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Scott Lee said:
Tommy-D...Bert was not the first person to note the "importance" of the replacement shot. He was just the first to try to capitalize on it, with a video for sale! :D That shot's been around for a hundred years, and any good player knows about it. The level of it's importance is what's debatable. I have to agree with Bob Jewett, that it's just another shot in your arsenal, along with rolling up 2-3 balls, and backing up 2-3 balls. All of this is still based on the stopshot as the foundation...which IS the most important shot! njmo

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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Right! And rolling 2-3 balls beyond the ob would be significanlty more likely to be attempted with a soft follow shot.

As you know, a soft follow can send the ob a full 7 diamonds at pocket speed and whith the cb not rolling more than 2-3 balls forward.

In fact, I just rolled the cb from 7 diamonds up the long rail...made the ob in the corner from 1 diamond away...and the cb rolled EXACTLY one ball width forward.

Using a stun run through to achieve 1-3 balls of forward roll is a cool shot and I practice it a lot (diagonal shot to a corner pocket with 4 diamonds of cb/ob separation) but I do that as part of a drill, not because I think it's going to come up much as an actual position shot.

A slow roll or a drag draw shot will accomplish the same thing and are much easier to control.

Maybe that's why we so RARELY see the exact replacement shot used by top players in competitive play.

(The drill mentioned above is part of a 6 shot cb controll drill where the shots are follow, stun run through +/- 1 diamond, drag draw with cb forward 1-2 ball widths, stop, 2 diamond draw, 4 diamond draw.)

(-:

Jim
 
klockdoc said:
"There is always something personal in your responses
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Patrick Johnson said:
Here's my entire response to you - the one you whined about. Show me the personal part. Show me where I even disagreed with you.

There's a small group of you (you, av84fun and pdcue) who can't take any response from me - even something as innocuous as this - without getting your panties in a bunch. Your oversensitivity somehow undermines your reading comprehension.

pj
chgo
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klockdoc said:
, "I might point out that the term Rotation is commonly used in the discussion of billiards/pool to relate to the rolling/rotational movement of a ball on the playing surface."
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Patrick Johnson said:
I've never heard it used in any special way for pool. The word simply means what it always has meant in every context: rotation in any direction around any axis - rolling, sidespin or both.
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Quoted from Bob Jewett's article

The "half-ball" shot is the single most important shot to understand for position and safety play. It's defined as a shot in which the cue ball is rolling smoothly on the cloth when it hits the object ball half full.

If one "unit" of follow is on the cue ball, it will roll forward a ball diameter, and
exactly replace the object ball.
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Patrick Johnson said:
Yes, and the ball rotates about 1/3 of a full revolution to get from point A to point B when those points are one diameter (2.25 inches) apart, as in the shot being discussed ("replacing" the OB with the CB). If the ball rotated a full revolution, it would travel the distance of its circumference, a little over 7 inches, and would end up more than two diameters past the target position. All you have to do is try it.
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Now if you step back and take a deep breath, you will see that all I did was try to minimize all the bantering that was going on in this thread that you were a part of. (oh, ended my statement in a preposition..:eek: ) I was not way trying to degrade you or to make you look incorrect in your projections and theories.

I wasn't trying to contradict anything you said. In fact, my statement probably benefited your case with the discussion of rolling versus rotation meaning.

If you think that people are against you, it is because of your insistent antagonizing and so-called "better than you " attitude that you display and portray in your messages.

There, at least my thoughts aren't hidden in my statements

Like I said earlier, grow up and act like an adult, even if you aren't one yet. If you don't like what I say, put me on ignore. I will do the same for you. You do not have anything to say that I would need to know.
 
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