Replace OB With CB

[suckershot]

JMO...

Play straight pool and you will HAVE TO learn this shot.

This is why I say that is essential to have a firm foundation of 14.1 in your game. Most of today's players seem to want to settle for a 9 ball or 8 ball foundation, and this is why these questions always come up. 14.1 is by far the game's best teacher - by using it as a practice tool and a measuring stick for your game, it will start to strengthen your skills in every other game - including 9 ball.

also...
Pat is correct, it is around 1/3...

I only know how important this shot is playing 14.1 because I can't do it!

There are so many times when I'm practicing straight pool where I say "if I could just stop where the cueball is...", and naturally, I can't do it. I either dead stop, or roll through too much. And then a couple of F-bombs and a lot of complaining. Usually all followed by a miss.

 

[flips]

No jsp. What pdcue and I are getting at is that Patrick doesn't understand what "rotation" means.

Rotate means:
1. To turn around on an axis or center.

So, the earth rotates but a ball rolls unless it is spinning around an axis running through its center.

So what Patrick was describing as "rotation" in his comments about the replacement shot was actually "roll."

Just having a little good natured fun with a gentleman who is fond of propounding his views in scientific terms.

REgards,
Jim

That's absurd. When a ball is rolling it is rotating about a horizontal axis; when it is spinning it is rotating about a vertical axis.

 

[BRKNRUN]

Hmmm.... I persoanlly like to think of this shot as a "stun release" shot. It really is like playing a stop shot but the ball then "releases" a roll (or two)..

For 9-Ball it seems to me the majority of the time this need will arise is when you are playing safe and you wan't to freeze behind another ball

What I do know for sure is this...If you want to play 14:1 you will need a very solid understanding of its application.

If you want to play "good" 1-Pocket you better be and expert at it...not just in the replace the CB, but even to the pont of two or three balls beyond.

There are many situations where you need to clear a ball from your opponents pocket, but stopping the CB dead is a sell out... The real good players will "stun release" the CB so it freezes to the rail.....(Don't Freeze the CB and you give your opponents free options)

I really think that this is right up there with ball pocketing, not just in the 2" range but 3-6".

However...as Jude pointed out, there are many variables that need to be accounted for....I think that these variables are absorbed through experience and feel......The end result = Touch.

I like the suggestion of starting with the stop shot...from there you are really not that far off. You can, using the exact same stoke speed for that shot, adjust the position you strike the CB and get many different "release" distances......(you may actually be surprised just how many distances of forward roll you can get with that same "stop shot" stroke)

NOTE: Depending on the shot, your stop shot strike position on the CB "may" be below center CB. Therefore your "stun release" shot may be center CB......

The Stop Shot stroke is your starting point that you would use to determin your "release" stike position........(thus the importance of knowing the Stop Shot)

 

[av84fun]

this is just such flawed logic, and anybody who has played high stakes pool or under any extreme pressure knows it. of course a good player can do that, but if he has a choice he'll put it in a slightly more desirable spot. if you were right, and good players (like say efren, buddy) just squandered their opportunities to play very good position, they would dog so many more balls under big pressure you can't believe it. but they don't cus they have learned it's within these little intricate (yet many times very simple) position shots that the game is made so much easier through subtle cue ball movement. players like you don't even notice, thinking, oh, he was perfect there. but really they are doing precise little movements that evade your capacity (to be fair, they evade you capacity hitherto). to note, a guy like say earl may be one exception to my logic, where he just plays for an angle and, as you say, he don't care he knows he's gonna get there his next shot. im sure there are others, but they don't come to mind.... mark tadd in his prime perhaps. but certainly the vast majority of great players don't just get any angle that will suffice, and "less skillful" players get very precise angles, ARE YOU SERIOUS..... really think of what you are saying?? to me, that is literally like saying if tiger woods is pitching, and he knows he can make an 6 foot putt, he'll put it at 6 feet instead of 2 feet because, what the hell, he's confident, great and he knows he'll make it. in reality, he'll attempt to put it within 2 feet to increase his percentage, because he's learned this through actual battle (something many in here obviously need to do more of).

as i get to the end of this post, this is a really big moment for me. i have realized that when someone says something really illogical (i try my best to be euphemistic), there is really no reason in the world not to put them on ignore, at least if i want to actually absorb credible information, which is why we are all here, isn't it?? further, i will not respond to them knowing it's a total waste of time, and, again, i will just immediately and and without prejudice put them on ignore.

how many people can one have on ignore? does anyone know??

Knock your socks off parder. Put anyone on ignore that floats your boat. But the poster who SHOULD be ignored is the one who makes up...out of thin air...and with no supporting evidence of any sort...that the replacement shot comes up in pro pool matches except VERY RARELY and so rarely that there isn't much point in practicing the shot except for the drill-oriented benefits such as those described by Bert Kinister.

Regards,
Jim

 

[av84fun]

Hmmm.... I persoanlly like to think of this shot as a "stun release" shot. It really is like playing a stop shot but the ball then "releases" a roll (or two)..

For 9-Ball it seems to me the majority of the time this need will arise is when you are playing safe and you wan't to freeze behind another ball

What I do know for sure is this...If you want to play 14:1 you will need a very solid understanding of its application.

If you want to play "good" 1-Pocket you better be and expert at it...not just in the replace the CB, but even to the pont of two or three balls beyond.

There are many situations where you need to clear a ball from your opponents pocket, but stopping the CB dead is a sell out... The real good players will "stun release" the CB so it freezes to the rail.....(Don't Freeze the CB and you give your opponents free options)

I really think that this is right up there with ball pocketing, not just in the 2" range but 3-6".

However...as Jude pointed out, there are many variables that need to be accounted for....I think that these variables are absorbed through experience and feel......The end result = Touch.

I like the suggestion of starting with the stop shot...from there you are really not that far off. You can, using the exact same stoke speed for that shot, adjust the position you strike the CB and get many different "release" distances......(you may actually be surprised just how many distances of forward roll you can get with that same "stop shot" stroke)

NOTE: Depending on the shot, your stop shot strike position on the CB "may" be below center CB. Therefore your "stun release" shot may be center CB......

The Stop Shot stroke is your starting point that you would use to determin your "release" stike position........(thus the importance of knowing the Stop Shot)

Ken, as a player who obviously has great experience in numerous different games, what would be your estimate of the number of times in 100 shots that the EXACT REPLACEMENT shot that is the subject of this thread comes up?

I mean, releasing the CB to exactly or VERY nearly so, replace the OB it strikes.

9 Ball
14.1
1 hole
8 ball

Regards,
Jim

 

[pdcue]

Hmmm.... I persoanlly like to think of this shot as a "stun release" shot. It really is like playing a stop shot but the ball then "releases" a roll (or two)..

For 9-Ball it seems to me the majority of the time this need will arise is when you are playing safe and you wan't to freeze behind another ball

What I do know for sure is this...If you want to play 14:1 you will need a very solid understanding of its application.

If you want to play "good" 1-Pocket you better be and expert at it...not just in the replace the CB, but even to the pont of two or three balls beyond.

There are many situations where you need to clear a ball from your opponents pocket, but stopping the CB dead is a sell out... The real good players will "stun release" the CB so it freezes to the rail.....(Don't Freeze the CB and you give your opponents free options)

I really think that this is right up there with ball pocketing, not just in the 2" range but 3-6".

However...as Jude pointed out, there are many variables that need to be accounted for....I think that these variables are absorbed through experience and feel......The end result = Touch.

I like the suggestion of starting with the stop shot...from there you are really not that far off. You can, using the exact same stoke speed for that shot, adjust the position you strike the CB and get many different "release" distances......(you may actually be surprised just how many distances of forward roll you can get with that same "stop shot" stroke)

NOTE: Depending on the shot, your stop shot strike position on the CB "may" be below center CB. Therefore your "stun release" shot may be center CB......

The Stop Shot stroke is your starting point that you would use to determin your "release" stike position........(thus the importance of knowing the Stop Shot)

This is exactly the idea I was needling pj of chg about.
It is a stun shot, the Brits call it a 'stun-run-thru' tho 'stun-crawl-thru'
might be more approp for moving forward one ball width.
I like your 'stun release' term better.

Truth is the CB is sliding when it hits the OB, but maybe it does
rotate/roll to go forward.

Just yo re-emphasize your important point, Mastering this shot
for various distances of follow is beyond critical, esp for 1pocket.

And to the OP, Bert K, I assume was talking about the stun shot, not
just this specific case, when he called it the most important shot
in pool. Not exactly original, Maurice Daily, about a hundred years earlier,
said that mastering the 'dead ball' stroke was the most important skill
in Billiards. I'm 99 44/100 % sure, he was talking about the stun shot.

Dale<the stun release kid>

 

[pdcue]

I don't think you and pdcue are on the same page, considering all pdcue's "stun" hints. Stunning implies no initial roll after contact.


I still don't see a difference. Anything that is rolling is also rotating. But not everything that is rotating is also rolling. For this particular discussion, if the CB moves forward after a straight-in collision, the CB must be rolling, and thus it is also rotating. But I say let's stop nitpicking semantics.

I still would like to hear what pdcue has to say for himself.

What pdcue has to say for himself is, my intention was to nudge
the discussion back to this exceedingly important technique,
This was the last thing I learned how to do for CB control. As a fair
player,I didn't even know it existed. As a pretty good player, I had to
strugle for quite a while, till one day I could just do it.

To revisit points that Bob Jewett and brkrun made, precise control of
CB movement, often just to minimize it, but sometimes, to exactly
locate the CB, forward, backward, and sidewise, may very well be
the single most important distinction between advanced
and intermediate players.

Dale<who was prolly too cute by half>

 

[Patrick Johnson]

It is a stun shot

No, it's not. The word in its name is misleading.

Truth is the CB is sliding when it hits the OB, but maybe it does
rotate/roll to go forward.

These can't both be true. For a full-on shot like the one being discussed, if the CB is sliding when it hits the OB (not rotating forward or backward - a stun shot), then it will stop. The only way the CB will move forward or backward after hitting the OB is if it has some forward or backward rotation on it when it hits the OB (not a stun shot). It's that rotation that makes it move after stopping.

After hitting the OB with stun, the CB will only move if it's a cut shot.

This is really basic stuff.

pj
chgo

 

[jsp]

These can't both be true. For a full-on shot like the one being discussed, if the CB is sliding when it hits the OB (not rotating forward or backward - a stun shot), then it will stop. The only way the CB will move forward or backward after hitting the OB is if it has some forward or backward rotation on it when it hits the OB. It's that rotation that makes it move after stopping.

This is really basic stuff.

PJ, let's give pdcue the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he primarily plays on a barbox with the BIG CB, and all his observations are based on that equipment. If that's the case, the CB probably would be sliding to move forward another ball's widths. Heck, the CB could actually have backspin to move forward, depending on how hard you shoot the shot.

But of course, if he's referring to the normal CB, then he's flat out wrong.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

PJ, let's give pdcue the benefit of the doubt.

Let's get organized about it. You give him the benefit of the doubt; I'll correct his errors (each is a full time job by itself).

pj
chgo

 

[klockdoc]

Rotation or rolling

Just to get back on track here,

I might point out that the term Rotation is commonly used in the discussion of billiards/pool to relate to the rolling/rotational movement of a ball on the playing surface.

There was a common misconception of the term half-ball hit also in other threads. But, we all decided that it meant that the cue ball was overlapping the object ball when struck, not referring to the aiming point.

Hopefully this will put everyone together in further discussion..

JMO

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I might point out that the term Rotation is commonly used in the discussion of billiards/pool to relate to the rolling/rotational movement of a ball on the playing surface.

I've never heard it used in any special way for pool. The word simply means what it always has meant in every context: rotation in any direction around any axis - rolling, sidespin or both.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

There was a common misconception of the term half-ball hit also in other threads. But, we all decided that it meant that the cue ball was overlapping the object ball when struck, not referring to the aiming point.

This is hard to say clearly and correctly because of ambiguous terms such as "aiming point" and "contact point". A half ball hit is the hit you get when you shoot with half ball aim, which is aiming with a half ball overlap. The "aiming point" could be either the edge or the center of the OB, depending on which part of the CB you're aiming at it (center or edge, respectively). The contact point is, of course, always the same - it's half way from the OB center to its edge when viewed from the CB's perspective, but it's only 1/3 of the way from the OB's center to its edge when measured around the OB's circumference (this is why it gives a 30-degree cut angle).

pj
chgo

 

[eastcoast_chris]

It's really half a ball's rotation. But, who cares?

Umm... nope.

For a half a rotation of a circle/sphere ... (2.25*0.5) * Pi = 3.53 inches of travel

(2*Pi*Radius = the circumference of a circle)

It is actually 0.318 (or 1/pi) of a rotation that will make the ball go exactly one width forward and replace the cueball exactly.

Don't mind me... I'm just bored at work and wasting time with this.

Chris

 

[klockdoc]

This is hard to say clearly and correctly because of ambiguous terms such as "aiming point" and "contact point". A half ball hit is the hit you get when you shoot with half ball aim, which is aiming with a half ball overlap. The "aiming point" could be either the edge or the center of the OB, depending on which part of the CB you're aiming at it (center or edge, respectively). The contact point is, of course, always the same - it's half way from the OB center to its edge when viewed from the CB's perspective, but it's only 1/3 of the way from the OB's center to its edge when measured around the OB's circumference (this is why it gives a 30-degree cut angle).

pj
chgo

Boy, you are one piece of work, PJ.

I wrote that to try to stop the confrontation between YOU and others and try to get back to the topic at hand.

It wasn't directed at anyone, only trying to help to smooth things out. Of course, you read into a situation what you want and not try to think about what the posters trying to describe.

Anyway, I'll be glad when you school Christmas vaction is over and you can back to your 7th or 8th grade class. Maybe they'll appreciate you. I don't.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Boy, you are one piece of work, PJ.

You guys should stop whining every time one of your posts isn't simply swallowed whole. If you can't tolerate give-and-take about the (sometimes subtle) facts and terminology in pool, don't bring them up.

There was nothing personal in my response. Grow some skin.

pj
chgo

 

[klockdoc]

There was nothing personal in my response.

pj
chgo

There is always something personal in your responses.. To any of the YOU GUYS you are speaking to.

 

[av84fun]

Boy, you are one piece of work, PJ.

I wrote that to try to stop the confrontation between YOU and others and try to get back to the topic at hand.

It wasn't directed at anyone, only trying to help to smooth things out. Of course, you read into a situation what you want and not try to think about what the posters trying to describe.

Anyway, I'll be glad when you school Christmas vaction is over and you can back to your 7th or 8th grade class. Maybe they'll appreciate you. I don't.

LOL and TAP TAP TAP! (-:

But what can be expectded from a guy who actually thinks that it is not possible to maintain a dime radius on a cue tip!!!

Or, who doesn't know he's being BAITED into a hair-splitting argument over the differences between roll and rotation!! (-:

LOL

 

[av84fun]

You guys should stop whining every time one of your posts isn't simply swallowed whole. If you can't tolerate give-and-take about the (sometimes subtle) facts and terminology in pool, don't bring them up.

There was nothing personal in my response. Grow some skin.

pj
chgo

PRICELESS...You are one of the biggest whiners on this forum whenever someone disagrees with you...you take it personally...and consistently respond in a demeaning/condescending fashion...even after a "truce" is proposed!

You're beautiful!

(-:

 

[BRKNRUN]

Ken, as a player who obviously has great experience in numerous different games, what would be your estimate of the number of times in 100 shots that the EXACT REPLACEMENT shot that is the subject of this thread comes up?

I mean, releasing the CB to exactly or VERY nearly so, replace the OB it strikes.

9 Ball
14.1
1 hole
8 ball

Regards,
Jim

I get the impression that you are mocking me a bit here, but I will answer anyway.

The EXACT REPLACEMENT (which is the subject of this thread) may only come up once in a blue moon.

However....(and I am sure this is the very first time this has ever happened in the history of a forum thread) The topic expanded a bit beyond just that 1 specific shot.

I was only supporting the whole thread direction which had expanded on this shot and related it to its very close cousin (The Stop Shot)

I felt that the Stop Shot response was well founded and attempted to expand on that by explaining "why" it is important to know the Stop Shot first.....(Basically because in my opinion the "stun release" as I call it is based on knowing what stroke to apply for a Stop Shot and then adjusting ever so slighty in your contact point on the CB)

I have NEVER claimed to be a "elite" player, but I have studied MANY and I can tell you with out a doubt that the better a player gets is determined on how well he/she controls the CB.

(There or TONS of players that can pocket balls all over the table)

It does not need to come up many times in a match for it to be of significant importance.

I am Sorry if I deviated from the EXACT topic of discussion.