Responce to Jerry Forsyth Article

[macguy]

"Mirror-mirror on the wall, show me why this game does fall." As Jerry Forsyth stated, so I will be the mirror to show you the light.

As a promoter of our sport I have contacted many sponsors and continue to do so. Yes, you have to show a number of households that a particular sponsor can reach, thus selling product. As I have stated and many know selling product is the entire reason for having a tour or even a tournament.

What must be done in this sport is show the true professionals. Show off players who “Pepsi” for example would like to have representing their company; a player who has integrity, creditability, and class.

Where I feel this sport has failed comes from the gambling. Also movies that show the cheating and gambling; have failed our sport. I am certain that “Pepsi” for example would not want to have a player who represents them, and out gambling. Gamblers are looked at by the general public as degenerate. Who are the sponsorships looking to touch? The general public. They want events that draw in crowds, so they can reach the general public inside the billiards community.

What the billiards community needs to do is give back to the general community. Show off the true professionals, like Mika Immonen, Thorsten Hohmann, Rodney Morris, Stevie Moore, Corey Deuel, Gabe Owen, Oscar Dominguez, Shaun Wilkie, and many others. These aforementioned individuals could set the way for the sport; for years to come. If we had these individuals representing the entire sport, not just their sponsors, and their promoters we all would be better off. How about volunteering at a nursing home, a hospital, libraries, and summer camps? Why don’t we get our true professionals to get out in the community and read a book to a 3rd grade class? Or have our true professionals assisting the elderly at a nursing home?

These are just a few examples of how showing off our class can assist our sport in getting major sponsorship. Showing large gambling matches are cool for the people who know the game. But does that show off the side of our sport that we want the public to see? Absolutely the answer is no.

Team DMIRO is doing an event at the Walter Reed Medical Center in January 2010. There I will have some of the country’s top pros doing exhibitions, and giving away product. Our soldiers and sailors who have been wounded in combat are sitting at this Army hospital with very low morale. Team DMIRO and others will be going to the hospital to build morale, and give back to the community. If we touch one life; our event will be a success. If you wish to participate in this event, please contact me, we are still looking for 3-4 more top players and a few more sponsors.

This event and the others are just small examples of what the sport should be doing. We as players and promoters need to recognize this need and put a plan in to action. Otherwise, we can continue to win tournaments that pay out $1,000 for first place, and wait all year long for great events such as the US Open, and the World 10-ball.

What we need to know is that a positive impact will only be remembered 10% of the time, and a negative impact will be remembered 90% of the time. Let’s show our class, and work hard to get the sponsors that myself and other promoters out there are trying to get. By: Mike Andrews – teamdmiro@gmail.com www.teamdmiro.com

I haven't read any of the responses but here are some of my thoughts. I have played for over 50 years. I can play several runs over 200. I have owned three pool rooms, all very successful. I build cues as a hobby. I think I have a pretty good understanding of the pool world it's subculture as well as how it relates to life in general. I have to wonder, what is it you want for or from the game? Where do you realistic see it in the grand scheem of things? Pool isn't a fad or fly by night sport, it is very well established. I am sorry to say though it will never be a main stream sport that people follow and watch on TV. It is not a spectator sport. Ideas are always thrown around but pool is what it is and people should accept it and be glad it does enjoy the popularity it does. Unfortunately that does not translate into something someone can make a living at as a pro.

Pool is not a sport anyone can make a living at, neither is swimming, archery, gymnastics or a whole host of other sports that are participated in. The animosity some pool players have because they can't make a living at the sport they will just have to live with, that is the way it is. Pool will always have it's nitch but it will never be a break out sport where players will command millions of dollars. Mainly because people like to play pool but don't much care for watching it.

I wonder if anyone has ever done any focus groups on pool. Put a hundred people in a room and you may get some real answers to many of the questions players and promoters have as to where the sport is in the minds of the general public.

 

[selftaut]

macguy nailed it.

 

[SK Custom Cues]

What pool needs is a Michael Jordan, or Tiger Woods with everyone else trying to catch that #1 spot...........

I think pool has potential, because it is much easier than other sports, especially golf. You can just pick up a cue and poke balls. Everyone likes pool, especially teenagers. If we had some sort of mentorship program like the first tee or some sort of standard membership program like the USGA that would continue to feed the player with renewed goals as the player's skills escalates would be the answer IMO.

I think the BCA or APA is one place to start, but they have got to be willing to give more than they get.

 

[oldzilla]

macguy nailed it.

there is truth to what macguy says but don't you both think that optimism might be more helpful than saying it will never float ?

 

[Island Drive]

Since pool has no structure, no tiered system, like soccer in grammar school and HS then college, since pool is not like football/basketball/swimming/tennis and many more sports, it will stay where its at and the publics vision of it will still be 'misspent youth'. Until this tree is planted by seed, cared for, nutured and developed like other successful sports it will stay where its at.

 

[JoeW]

I too think that Macguy nailed it. Pool is a pass time for most people. It is not perceived as a sport by the general public anymore than badminton or ping pong except by those of us who get serious. It is something that one does not something one watches.

I doubt it has ever been much of a spectator sport for more than a few spectators. The field is too small.

One of the reasons I did not go to the US Open this year has to do with the inability to see the matches very well. It is actually better as a spectator sport when seen on a TV screen. This may be one of the things that could be used to its advantage.

One of the things that appeals to players is the small room atmosphere and the camaraderie, gambeling and the general woofing that goes on. This is all part of a way life not a sport. Pool is a subculture more than it is a sport. Look at all the great characters and the small group of people with their interesting stories. As some wag said, you can't make a silk purse out of a pig's ear.

 

[TX Poolnut]

In my opinion, the problem with high level pool is that it looks really easy therby boring the general audience.

 

[Fast Lenny]

My opinion is I love the movies The Hustler and The Color of Money and they did help pool grow for a short period and we all look at that and wait for the next boom. The reality is like most pool players the thought process is not thinking ahead nor long term, we are looking for the fast money and easy fix.

If pool had a good image and there was a long term plan and not just a short term fix like a movie creating a small boom then we might be in the right direction. I know the masses think that pool and hustling goes hand in hand, they do not think of it as a sport and about all the tournaments going on.

We need a long term plan for pool to get back to what it was 100 years ago but perhaps it is too late and the image is permanently damaged forever, we might have to wait for the next boom from a movie and then the decline again.

Love him or hate him KT had the right formula and he lost money on that deal for sure, the players did make money and most that you ask will tell you that. It sucks we all had our hopes up especially the players for it to work out but like most things that seem too good to be true it was one of them.

 

[JoeyA]

Just yesterday, I was preaching to a very talented professional pool player about the need for community service by professional pool players.

This is the way for professional players to become icons, to become part of the public's consciousness. Doug (SmorgassBored) used to tell me that Buddy Hall was the Planet 9 Ball House Pro and when Doug was tournament director of the local weekly amateur tournament, he would often ask amateur players if they knew who Buddy Hall was. They ALWAYS answered, no. This is a sad state of affairs and has always been the case. Professional pool players must understand that they have to develop a fan base beyond AZ Billiards and the tournament circle. We are few and they are many.

It is great that team DMIRO is spear-heading an effort to help the pool players to make a name for themselves outside of the pool world. We all know Buddy is one of the greatest pool players that ever lived, but we live inside of the bubble and it is a very small bubble.

Community Service is a great place to start and I am certain that the external return on the players' investment of their time will be rewarded in kind, especially if they realize the joy that they bring to other people by sharing their time.

Let me know if you are passing down this way and I will make efforts to have the doors of the military opened for you. We have many branches of service in the New Orleans area and I would be willing to do the legwork to make the connections for you. Just let me know when you have a cadre of patriotic pool professionals willing to give their time and effort to our military men and women in this area.

Thanks for your service and efforts to showcase the professional players in a very positive light.

I am willing to bet that the professional players who give selflessly to these type of efforts will receive far more than they could ever receive by doing anything else.
Sincerely,
Joey Aguzin

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

At what period was pool in the USA at its zenith?

Why did it peak at that time and why did it fall?

 

[Fast Lenny]

At what period was pool in the USA at its zenith?

Why did it peak at that time and why did it fall?

Pool was probably at its boom in the late 1800's and earl 1900's with thousands watching exhibitions and matches. Prize money was very good and players were paid well, much better compared to todays players. The reason why pool fell out IMO is other sports like baseball, basketball and football being bigger spectator sports which also equals more money.

 

[Jerry Forsyth]

I don't mean to be picky, you guys can discuss whatever you wish, but none of these posts is actually a discussion of the editorial. The subject was how pool fans do not support pool sponsors, not about how to present the game or any of this other stuff.

 

[center pocket]

Just yesterday, I was preaching to a very talented professional pool player about the need for community service by professional pool players.

This is the way for professional players to become icons, to become part of the public's consciousness. Doug (SmorgassBored) used to tell me that Buddy Hall was the Planet 9 Ball House Pro and when Doug was tournament director of the local weekly amateur tournament, he would often ask amateur players if they knew who Buddy Hall was. They ALWAYS answered, no. This is a sad state of affairs and has always been the case. Professional pool players must understand that they have to develop a fan base beyond AZ Billiards and the tournament circle. We are few and they are many.

It is great that team DMIRO is spear-heading an effort to help the pool players to make a name for themselves outside of the pool world. We all know Buddy is one of the greatest pool players that ever lived, but we live inside of the bubble and it is a very small bubble.

Community Service is a great place to start and I am certain that the external return on the players' investment of their time will be rewarded in kind, especially if they realize the joy that they bring to other people by sharing their time.

Let me know if you are passing down this way and I will make efforts to have the doors of the military opened for you. We have many branches of service in the New Orleans area and I would be willing to do the legwork to make the connections for you. Just let me know when you have a cadre of patriotic pool professionals willing to give their time and effort to our military men and women in this area.

Thanks for your service and efforts to showcase the professional players in a very positive light.

I am willing to bet that the professional players who give selflessly to these type of efforts will receive far more than they could ever receive by doing anything else.
Sincerely,
Joey Aguzin

Good Post Joey, i agree with this 100%. If I ever get to pro level I plan on marketing myself in this way, as well as many other ways.

 

[jay helfert]

TV is the problem, and there are reasons why the men are not on TV anymore. There was a big tour in America, a few times, and there are reasons they aren't here anymore.

All come from not having the right sponsors. Yes products do sell, pool is one of the most widely played game in the world!

There are 100X more pool cues sold then baseball bats, and hockey sticks.

But the baseball players get paid by the sponsors and the fans, same with hockey, but in pool, we have to play 12 hours a day in a tournament for cash. I think that is the downfall. The fact that it is a gamble.

If I made a press release saying the number one pool player in America was coming to my local pool hall for an exhibition vs. doing a press release saying Joe Blow from the New York Yankees was doing an exhibition, which gets more response?

Which would be even printed? baseball, of course, but the why, is the answer we need to find.

I think giving back to the community can put us on the right path. Showing a positive image, class, and professionalism can put us back on track to major sponsorship.

Holding more tournaments, and challenge matches will not draw the sponsors to our sport. Showing professionals will.

I do agree with this. Unless the pool player is The Black Widow! Few people know her real name but she is the most recognizable player this side of the Pacific. My experience is that most players do show some degree of professionalism at the major events I attend. Some are better about this than others, but few neglect it entirely.

I happen to enjoy all the diverse personalities that populate the game. I love what golf does at every one of their pro tournaments. They do something with top players in the local community to benefit charity. The more we can do things like this, the more our sport will benefit. And they can happen in conjunction with a tournament or exhibition as well.

Thanks Mike for your comments and your service.

 

[oldzilla]

Just yesterday, I was preaching to a very talented professional pool player about the need for community service by professional pool players.

This is the way for professional players to become icons, to become part of the public's consciousness. Doug (SmorgassBored) used to tell me that Buddy Hall was the Planet 9 Ball House Pro and when Doug was tournament director of the local weekly amateur tournament, he would often ask amateur players if they knew who Buddy Hall was. They ALWAYS answered, no. This is a sad state of affairs and has always been the case. Professional pool players must understand that they have to develop a fan base beyond AZ Billiards and the tournament circle. We are few and they are many.

It is great that team DMIRO is spear-heading an effort to help the pool players to make a name for themselves outside of the pool world. We all know Buddy is one of the greatest pool players that ever lived, but we live inside of the bubble and it is a very small bubble.

Community Service is a great place to start and I am certain that the external return on the players' investment of their time will be rewarded in kind, especially if they realize the joy that they bring to other people by sharing their time.

Let me know if you are passing down this way and I will make efforts to have the doors of the military opened for you. We have many branches of service in the New Orleans area and I would be willing to do the legwork to make the connections for you. Just let me know when you have a cadre of patriotic pool professionals willing to give their time and effort to our military men and women in this area.

Thanks for your service and efforts to showcase the professional players in a very positive light.

I am willing to bet that the professional players who give selflessly to these type of efforts will receive far more than they could ever receive by doing anything else.
Sincerely,
Joey Aguzin

TAP TAP TAP !

 

[oldzilla]

I don't mean to be picky, you guys can discuss whatever you wish, but none of these posts is actually a discussion of the editorial. The subject was how pool fans do not support pool sponsors, not about how to present the game or any of this other stuff.

sorry jerry, where can your article be seen. all i read was the OP here !

 

[jay helfert]

Let's see if I can get this out in writing... a few years ago I saw a tourney on ESPN and Danny Basovich was in the finals, can't remember who he was playing but that kind of makes my point. They did a little profile of the 2 players (ala what the WSOP does all of the time) and Kid D came off as having a PERSONALITY! I thought wow this is what televised pool needs and has been lacking.

Now, we all know there are some great personalities and rivalries in the game but the telecasts have failed horribly over the years to bring them out. The players come off as stiff and uninteresting when they're interviewed, and it's not always their fault, it just seems that it's done with little interest and no planning and almost like an afterthought.

I think the ladies have been more sucessful because quite honestly a lot of them are more camera friendly to look at and more savvy when they're interviewed.

Televised pool has to have a setting that gets people interested in the players somehow first and foremost. Just my 2 cents.

That was at the Bicycle Casino and Danny was playing Corey Deuel in the finals. A very exciting match by the way. Good observations here by StrokeofLuck. A little personality development prior to or during the match will bring more viewers to the sport. We need to create stars!

 

[jay helfert]

Honestly I believe all of you are semi wrong, its not the gambling nor is it the sponsorships. Its like trying to fix your stance so you move your head instead of moving your foot. Got to get to the source of the problem. Pool is dying in interest b/c the populace has turned it into a drunks play time thing they do at the bar. People think they can learn to play good at the bar(insanity). What we need are much more instructors (which is why I'm going to get mine) we need afterschool programs that instructors frequent and work with kids. If you start with the kids, and give people proper instruction then they will understand the game more, and acutally know what and how to perform. You start with the kids and move from there, and you watch what happens. There should be pool leagues at the boys and girls club for christs sake, every city should have one.

WHY, I ASK WHY THE HELL DID I NEVER KNOW ABOUT THE JUNIOR NATIONALS? I didn't find out about that untill I was out of highschool, I was 17 still but missed the age deadline by a few weeks (my birthday falls weird) I was running in HS and was selected for a national team to go run in australia and hawaii, don't you think i would have went to the juniors if I had known they existed!!!

THE PROBLEM WITH POOL IS WE ARE NOT INVOLVING THE KIDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And don't come back and say oh this and that, what I said is a fact, and whatever is being done at the moment is hogwash. Every 8yr old in america plays baseball every summer....where in the hell are the pool programs for childern?

If anyone is interested in some of my ideas that I am working on currently and plan on putting into motion please PM me.

If we can get the kids interested, its all over and I really believe that. Mommy and daddy can't say no to little Johnny, and if little Johnny is playing a summer pool league (why not year round) then he is that much more likely to want to watch it whenever he can on tv, and mommy and daddy are going to be watching it too.

Does anyone agree with me on this???


viking of the gulf,
Grey Ghost

AGREED! Pool as a high school sport would be the biggest shot in the arm we could get. And it is actually a very inexpensive sport to fund. One small classroom could easily hold two tables, and there are no uniforms or special equipment needed by each player. Heck, they can play matches with a house cue.

I have been saying this to the honchos of the BCA for as long as I can remember. All the time and money they have spent fixating on pool in the Olympics and we could have had high school progrmas across the nation by now. Only a few people (like Bart Mahoney in Sacramento) have done anything about it already. I believe Belinda Campos in Austin and someone in Pennsylvania have also instituted programs for high schoolers.

There should be a concerted effort by the BCA to create similar programs all across the country.

 

[jay helfert]

At what period was pool in the USA at its zenith?

Why did it peak at that time and why did it fall?

It peaked in the 20's and 30's. It was a major sport then with the top players (Greenleaf and Willie Hoppe) well known sports figures who demanded and got high salaries for their appearances. It fell off markedly during the depression and has never regained it's old grandeur. Sorry, I don't know why.

 

[JoeW]

Jerry said, “The subject was how pool fans do not support pool sponsors, not about how to present the game or any of this other stuff.”

I guess the “how” of it is in the money they do or do not spend and the places they do or do not patronize. There are ways to assess whether current and potential fans support the sport. Sponsors need a coupon or something similar that can be presented. The coupon, password or whatever tells the sponsor that the ad / sponsorship or whatever was seen by the fan. Another interesting aspect might be how much of a fan some one is when they do support the sponsor. It would not be difficult to find groups of purchasers’ who have and have not seen the sponsored events and then determine their “commitment” to pool playing and the sponsor in various ways.

I think that Pepsi or Coke or someone makes these kinds of assessments with their ads / sponsorship of race car driving. By and large I think that most of us would agree that pool players are a cheap lot (except when it comes to gambling). None-the-less they do go to Arby’s and they do occasionally drink Coke.

The idea would be to get / give sponsorship to a big company and include a way to follow up how much this sponsorship affected the revenues. I would bet that something similar has been done for television spots and the results were not too gratifying (or they would have done more).

Steve Mizerak did the beer commercial and there might have been some increased revenues. It would take a team of interested people to locate and query the appropriate companies to determine how much pool sponsorship contributed to increased revenues. If the results were as needed these studies could be used to approach other potential sponsors. Sometimes the increased attention, as in the Mizerak commercial, is enough to make the ad worthwhile. Sometimes it is simply all about getting the public to pay attention to the sponsor, this leads to increased revenues.

I would guess that a well designed advertising campaign presented to a potential sponsor in a way that also spupported their public image might be of use. People in advertising are aware of the idea that negative images or images that are irritating can also sell a product. The repetitive Mr. Wipple ads and some actor dragging toilet paper through the streets makes the consumer reach for the “known” product.

It is more about marketing and a public relations campaign than it is about who responds and when they respond.

The population of pool players, relative to the population of the US is far too small for big money advertising. It is more about advertising to the common man who will become a fan. Somebody needs to do their homework here.