Ron V aiming system video and diagrams

SpiderWebComm said:
Finally, a good post. A mechanical bridge = zero movement. A hand bridge gives, allowing a pivot point from a position other than the bridge. With a hand bridge, I win the bet-- and that is the bet.
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The original bet as I understand it was:
You'll hold your stick in normal shooting position with your bridge hand on the table as usual and, without moving your bridge hand or any part of it and without removing your stick from it, leaving everything in place as if you're going to shoot a normal shot, you'll pivot your stick around a point that's somewhere other than at your bridge hand.
Click to expand...

Dave,
You say the bridge hand gives. Are you suggesting it moves or that the cue can move laterally within it?

I use an open bridge and I think any 'give' is pretty insignificant. Trials with a loop bridge show me it's pretty insignificant with my use of that bridge too.

Maybe an open loop creates some extra give that is significant, but I doubt there is much give in a standard loop bridge unless the hand actually moves noticeably.

Don't mean to be an ass but I'd rather see this clarified prior to a bet and prior to losing members who wilfully contribute to this forum, albeit in different ways.

Colin
 
Colin Colenso said:
The original bet as I understand it was:


Dave,
You say the bridge hand gives. Are you suggesting it moves or that the cue can move within it?

I use an open bridge and I think any 'give' is pretty insignificant. Trials with a loop bridge show me it's pretty insignificant with my use of that bridge too.

Maybe an open loop creates some extra give that is significant, but I doubt there is much give in a standard loop bridge unless the hand actually moves noticeably.

Don't mean to be an ass but I'd rather see this clarified prior to a bet and prior to losing members who wilfully contribute to this forum, albeit in different ways.

Colin
Click to expand...

My bridge won't move a millimeter, Colin. Won't move at all. We're gonna outline my bridge with white chalk after I place it on the table. I can even do it with an open bridge no prob-- but with this money, I'm close-bridging it.

The bet is--- STATIC BRIDGE, MULTIPLE PIVOT POINTS AS FAR AS THE CUE IS CONCERNED. I'm being VERY clear because I'm NOT driving to OH to be word-smithed. I was MEGA clear during this entire thread AND EVEN POSTED A G-DAMN VIDEO!!!!!! Don't know how much clearer I can be.

PJ had an out, and he didn't take it. Now PJ is going bye-bye. If anyone thinks PJ is winning this, I'll take side-action up to $100/per....must be escrowed with TAR ahead of time. I'm not in the bill collecting business.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
dr_dave said:
Is there a fixed pivot point with a mechanical bridge but not with a hand bridge, and does it depend on whether you use a closed or open bridge, and does it depend on the orientation of the "V" created by your fingers?
Click to expand...
Finally, a good post. A mechanical bridge = zero movement. A hand bridge gives, allowing a pivot point from a position other than the bridge. With a hand bridge, I win the bet-- and that is the bet.
Click to expand...
Now, with a hand bridge, the pivot point of the cue (regardless of whether or not the body moves) is still very close to the pivot point provided by a mechanical bridge, because the cue doesn't shift very much in the bridge hand as the cue pivots (unless you have a hand bridge very different from mine). But I don't think this is the main or important point concerning the hip pivot. The hip pivot also moves your head and eyes, right? So when you pivot, the line of vision is no longer aligned with 90/90 or CTE line, right? If so, this would explain why the "pivot" back to center-ball would create a different aiming line based on whether or not you move your body, because the line of vision is different after the pivot. Is this the case? If so, it seems like the exact amount of head movement (in addition to bridge-hand placement) would be critical to making these types of systems work. Do you agree? I also wonder if the tip will truly be at center ball since the line of vision is moving. If so, slight english might be introduced, possibly helping or possibly hurting the system, depending on the situation.

Dave, I hope you don't think I am attacking or trying to "corner" you. I honestly just want to get to the bottom of how and why these systems work as well as some people (e.g., you) suggest they do. I know you have excellent aim and are a good shooter ... that is clear from your videos. Honestly, I think you could make any system work. Again, my purpose is to understand how and why the system works. If the system works, we should be able to explain why. This has been quite difficult so far, but I think we are finally getting somewhere.

Regards (with respect),
Dave
 
SpiderWebComm said:
My bridge won't move a millimeter, Colin. Won't move at all. We're gonna outline my bridge with white chalk after I place it on the table. I can even do it with an open bridge no prob-- but with this money, I'm close-bridging it.

The bet is--- STATIC BRIDGE, MULTIPLE PIVOT POINTS AS FAR AS THE CUE IS CONCERNED. I'm being VERY clear because I'm NOT driving to OH to be word-smithed. I was MEGA clear during this entire thread AND EVEN POSTED A G-DAMN VIDEO!!!!!! Don't know how much clearer I can be.

PJ had an out, and he didn't take it. Now PJ is going bye-bye. If anyone thinks PJ is winning this, I'll take side-action up to $100/per....must be escrowed with TAR ahead of time. I'm not in the bill collecting business.
Click to expand...
Dave,

To confirm it, it would need to be shot with a still, realtively overhead camera, so the two bridges could be overlaid on one image and compared.

The reference point, in my mind, should be the center of the cue over the point at which it touches the bridge.

That's just my opinion, but I guess you two can work out what's he best way to measure / determine if the conditions are met and who the official judges are.

Colin
 
dr.d, as I understand it, the reason for the hip swivel as compared to just a back hand pivot is than with the hip movement your entire body moves as one unit. This allows your head to stay over the cue for aiming purposes. The backhand pivot was explained to mean several years ago by Belinda Campos. She said this was used for english and it reduce deflection because the cue was sliding off the ball more than pushing it to the side. The problem I had with it was that I felt I was not aiming at anything. With the hip movement I feel I aiming with my stick to the cue ball to the object ball. I don't think you would add anything to the process if you moved your fingers.
I hope I explained well.
 
dr_dave said:
Now, with a hand bridge, the pivot point of the cue (regardless of whether or not the body moves) is still very close to the pivot point provided by a mechanical bridge, because the cue doesn't shift very much in the bridge hand as the cue pivots (unless you have a hand bridge very different from mine). But I don't think this is the main or important point concerning the hip pivot. The hip pivot also moves your head and eyes, right? So when you pivot, the line of vision is no longer aligned with 90/90 or CTE line, right? If so, this would explain why the "pivot" back to center-ball would create a different aiming line based on whether or not you move your body, because the line of vision is different after the pivot. Is this the case? If so, it seems like the exact amount of head movement (in addition to bridge-hand placement) would be critical to making these types of systems work. Do you agree? I also wonder if the tip will truly be at center ball since the line of vision is moving. If so, slight english might be introduced, possibly helping or possibly hurting the system, depending on the situation.

Dave, I hope you don't think I am attacking or trying to "corner" you. I honestly just want to get to the bottom of how and why these systems work as well as some people (e.g., you) suggest they do. I know you have excellent aim and are a good shooter ... that is clear from your videos. Honestly, I think you could make any system work. Again, my purpose is to understand how and why the system works. If the system works, we should be able to explain why. This has been quite difficult so far, but I think we are finally getting somewhere.

Regards (with respect),
Dave
Click to expand...

My bridge wont move, the tip WILL be at center in relation to the position of the cue. I'm pulling the trigger and winning.

Edit- We'll make sure we're AT LEAST 59" away, bridge 10" away, tip aligned 90/90, bridge is outlined so the base cannot move/rotate. Those are the specs. According to PJ-- I MUST miss the ball - since the bridge is the pivot point. Let's BE REAL CLEAR.
 
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Has anybody else ever noticed that where along the center/vertical axis that the cue ball is struck that different effects upon the object ball are observed?

Flex
 
kaznj said:
dr.d, as I understand it, the reason for the hip swivel as compared to just a back hand pivot is than with the hip movement your entire body moves as one unit. This allows your head to stay over the cue for aiming purposes. The backhand pivot was explained to mean several years ago by Belinda Campos. She said this was used for english and it reduce deflection because the cue was sliding off the ball more than pushing it to the side. The problem I had with it was that I felt I was not aiming at anything. With the hip movement I feel I aiming with my stick to the cue ball to the object ball. I don't think you would add anything to the process if you moved your fingers.
I hope I explained well.
Click to expand...
Kaznj,

This video I made explains Back Hand English, or the Aim & Pivot for English method. I don't describe it as Belinda did to you. It's a bit rough, quality wise, but the first 5-10 mins should give a pretty good explanation of the basics of why and how BHE works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERFTM8dbat0

Note: I can do this with or without a hip shift. The result is the same, but when pivoting for outside english (right english) as a right hander, I often need to shift my hip for an unobstructed stoke.

Colin
 
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SpiderWebComm said:
You really are a piece of work. I tried to let you know in private you can't win and tried to be a man about this so we could walk away quietly. I apologized for making this a pissing match - but you instigated me with your "matter of fact" posts that weren't fact at all.

My bet is $1000.00, plus your playing cue against mine (has to be worth over $1000--- I play with a lambros) and perma-ban from AZ. With your permission, I'd like the option to raise it to 5 if I can get it - up to the day of the duel. Let me know where and when so I can maneuver around work and let's do it. We should let TAR escrow the money ahead of time - we each bring our cue.

I'm beside myself. In my heart this morning, I was honestly trying to take a high road in private with you. Anyways, it is what it is. Where are we meeting and when....

Dave
Click to expand...

OK, the bet's $1,000 (no cues) and permanent banishment from AZB. And since you've been trying to re-define the bet, here it is again in its entirety (with some important parts emphasized):

My unedited post #133:

You'll hold your stick in normal shooting position with your bridge hand on the table as usual and, without moving your bridge hand or any part of it and without removing your stick from it, leaving everything in place as if you're going to shoot a normal shot, you'll pivot your stick around a point that's somewhere other than at your bridge hand.
Click to expand...

We're not meeting anywhere. We can judge your performance without that. You don't have to shoot any shots; you won't even need balls or even a table - all you have to do is pivot your stick as described above, around a pivot point that's somewhere other than at your bridge hand (that means not at your bridge hand).

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
OK, the bet's $1,000 (no cues) and permanent banishment from AZB. And since you've been trying to re-define the bet, here it is again in its entirety (with some important parts emphasized):



We're not meeting anywhere. We can judge your performance without that. You don't have to shoot any shots; you won't even need balls or even a table - all you have to do is pivot your stick as described above, around a pivot point that's somewhere other than at your bridge hand (that means not at your bridge hand).

pj
chgo
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The cue will move through the bridge hand radially, the point where my cue first touches the bridge is not the pivot point.... which is what I've been saying this entire time. I'm not redefining shit. If it WERE the pivot point, I would have to miss the ball entirely at 59" away--- per your diagram and per my 1st shots in my posted video.

The bridge will not move, I will hip-pivot, the cue will turn in my bridge-- although it's not the "point" and I will hit the OB--- I might even make it:)

That's been the bet the entire time. Basically, I'm doing what I did in that video-- that you though was an elaborate hoax.

STAND BY YOUR DIAGRAM OR BACK DOWN THIS BET. STOP TURNING IT INTO SOMETHING IT'S NOT.

LOOK YOU NIT--- WE AAAAAAARE MEETING SOMEWHERE AND WITH WITNESSES. BELIEVE THAAAAT! IF YOU'RE NOT MEETING UP TO SETTLE THE BET--- PUSS OUT IN FRONT OF THE WORLD. I AM IN FOR THE $1000/CUE/BANNISHMENT AND RON WILL TAKE 10 FOR SIDE-ACTION. WE ARE MEETING UP - OR PUSS OUT NITBAG. I CALLED THE BET. I'M IN. YOUR CUE IS IN. I WANT IT ALL.

When I win it, I'm gonna raffle it and give a donation to TAR in your name.
 
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A note about the bridge not being the pivot point. If a person holds his cue lightly/normally in the rear hand, there is not enough sideways force to allow the cue to pivot from anywhere other than the resting point of the bridge hand if the bridge hand doesn't move at all.
 
dr_dave said:
I think you are referring to throw. For more info, see:


Regards,
Dave
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You're exactly right, sir. Throw can do a lot of things to the object ball. Contact induced throw specifically. Also, because of a possible quirk in someone's stroke, while they may hit the cue ball in the center, the cue can go slightly off the straight line resulting in unintended or intended english can alter the results on the shot, of course.

And throw is also influenced by the speed at which the cue ball strikes the object ball, besides other factors, which you certainly know more about than I do.

Flex
 
My Post #135:
You'll hold your stick in normal shooting position with your bridge hand on the table as usual and, without moving your bridge hand or any part of it and without removing your stick from it, leaving everything in place as if you're going to shoot a normal shot, you'll pivot your stick around a point that's somewhere other than at your bridge hand.

Is that right?

pj
chgo
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Bet something mr. geometry. You're faltering. Get up and bet.

edit- where's the tap dance music at? wanna dial a friend or something? call dr. dave, if I were you
Click to expand...


If you agree that's the bet I'll take any amount up to $5,000, which I'll post with anybody we can mutually agree on. We can also bet something else if money's not your cup of tea, or money plus something else.

pj
chgo
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Your Post #136:
If you agree that's the bet I'll take any amount up to $5,000, which I'll post with anybody we can mutually agree on. We can also bet something else if money's not your cup of tea, or money plus something else.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...


Wow. I wanted to keep it friendly, but now that i can get all the money, let me see if I can raise the $5k. If I can, I'm in
Click to expand...

It's crystal clear how the bet was defined and that you accepted it as defined. Stop weaseling. You wanted a bet. You accepted my bet.

pj
chgo

P.S. My cue's not worth much of anything, but if you want them in the bet, fine.
 
dr_dave said:
Now, with a hand bridge, the pivot point of the cue (regardless of whether or not the body moves) is still very close to the pivot point provided by a mechanical bridge, because the cue doesn't shift very much in the bridge hand as the cue pivots (unless you have a hand bridge very different from mine). But I don't think this is the main or important point concerning the hip pivot. The hip pivot also moves your head and eyes, right? So when you pivot, the line of vision is no longer aligned with 90/90 or CTE line, right? If so, this would explain why the "pivot" back to center-ball would create a different aiming line based on whether or not you move your body, because the line of vision is different after the pivot. Is this the case? If so, it seems like the exact amount of head movement (in addition to bridge-hand placement) would be critical to making these types of systems work. Do you agree? I also wonder if the tip will truly be at center ball since the line of vision is moving. If so, slight english might be introduced, possibly helping or possibly hurting the system, depending on the situation.

Dave, I hope you don't think I am attacking or trying to "corner" you. I honestly just want to get to the bottom of how and why these systems work as well as some people (e.g., you) suggest they do. I know you have excellent aim and are a good shooter ... that is clear from your videos. Honestly, I think you could make any system work. Again, my purpose is to understand how and why the system works. If the system works, we should be able to explain why. This has been quite difficult so far, but I think we are finally getting somewhere.

Regards (with respect),
Dave
Click to expand...

Man.. I can't still believe you guys are still arguing on this point?

When you only pivot with BackHand...your body don't move? True?
When you pivot with your hip...you arm and rest the body move but your bridge hand does not?

Try this for yourself.....place your bridge hand fix on the a table......now move your body left and right? Does you bridge hand move? Comn guys!! Just try it don't theorizing it to dead. Hope this clear it up.

If in this experiment you tell me the hand doesn't have to move...guess who's the winner?

Of Course body movement shift the line of aim to a different pivot point of the bridge hand. Dave is saying pivot point is not fix and the hand is not the pivot point. True!! How many pivot point is on your bridge? Multiple. One if the body does not move...hope you guys get this. PJ....you lost this bet.

Regards,
Duc.
 
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Cuemaster98 said:
Of Course body movement shift the line of aim to a different pivot point of the bridge hand. Dave is saying pivot point is not fix and the hand is not the pivot point. True!!

Regards,
Duc.
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So are you suggesting that the cue slides up one side of the V formed by the bridge when you move your body?
 
Patrick Johnson said:
It's crystal clear how the bet was defined and that you accepted it as defined. Stop weaseling. You wanted a bet. You accepted my bet.

pj
chgo

P.S. My cue's not worth much of anything, but if you want them in the bet, fine.
Click to expand...

I thought the bet was on Post #133 as you claimed.

Regards,
Duc.
 
Dave,

I gave up quite a while back and you may want to consider the same. These guys will NEVER let up with the skepticism, regardless of how throrough you are in your explanation. Point is, they have said that they will not call the originators of the systems so why bother feeding into them? Wordsmithing is a good term because no matter how well you explain, you are being nitpicked to death.
In all honesty, I hope you pull off this bet because, IMO, this place is better without him instead of with him. I'm sure this will be critiqued as well but I could honestly give two shits. I won't respond beyond this. If people REALLY want this info and aren't looking to stroke their ego's, then all they have to do is pick up the phone. Hal, Ron, and Stan are all available.

Regards and I owe you a few beers when we meet.
Koop
 
Cuemaster98 said:
When you only pivot with BackHand...your body don't move? True?
When you pivot with your hip...you arm and rest the body move but your bridge hand does not?

Try this for yourself.....place your bridge hand fix on the a table......now move your body left and right? Does you bridge hand move?

Regards,
Duc.
Click to expand...
I can pivot by back hand with no movement of my hips, torso or head. I can move my body left or right and not move my bridge hand.

Takes a bit of practice for the coordination but both are now easy to me after doing maybe 10,000 pivoted shots. Probably took a few hundred shots to gain reasonable competence.

Colin
 
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bluepepper said:
So are you suggesting that the cue slides up one side of the V formed by the bridge when you move your body?
Click to expand...

Bridge Hand does not move...pivot point changes so slightly you will not notice. There are multiple pivot point on your bridge..loop or open.. Pivot point is not exact like PJ claimed. Closed to it if your body doesn't move...even still the pivot point changes as your do you warm up stroke...there are a lot element that geometry doesn't account for...one of PJ flaw as I mentioned is that he's working on a perfect system in reality this is not the case. That's why I said it's very ironic that he arguing that all these system requires "Feel" unknown element to a system but he won't take into account "Feel" or unknown element when he uses his math to explain a system. He's kinda of contradicting himself....first claim all these elements requires feel..but he trying to proof that the aiming system is precise without accounting for the unknown which in this case is the body movement.

The first flaw is that PJ assumed that the Back Hand movement has the same pivot point as the body movement which is proven false in Dave Video.

Human Pivoting with a cue do not have an Exact Pivot Point. Anyone agree on this? Changes in pivot point change the line of aim. Bridge Hand does not have to move. Get with reality guys....No such think as exact pivot point...unless you have a robot and the pivot point glue or fix with the cue. I think in this case, if you use a robot to do the hand pivot vs the robot moving his body..you will see the pivot point changes on an pivot contact point like a curvature of a curve ball. There's move than one pivot points...No matter how minute..the pivot point does changes in reality....but PJ think this is true in geometry plus real life..which is clearly not the case.

Regards,
Duc.
 
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