Ron V aiming system video and diagrams

[shankster8]

Accuracy of Post #426

What i would like to see PJ is somebody start an aiming system thread and we work to prove it works or doesn't work, no arguements. You continuesly argue about feel,pivot points, and post bad drawings and refuse to try them out on a pool table. By doing this it hi-jacks the thread and I lose the oppertunity to gain valuable free info. If a scientist did a drawing,did the experiment off the drawing and it didn't work, he would redo his drawing, but you refused to do the experiment. WHY!!!!

Hey cookie man! I've been banging my head against this thread for days now, and believe the differences between Dave and PJ have their basis in definitions. I think they are both just supporting their own position, but again each is based on a different understanding. Read post #426 - I really think it spells the problem out in the simplest words. The bridge PJ envisions, I believe, is like an oar lock, if you know what that is. The oar on a rowboat passes through it, and can rotate about a fixed pivot axis. If I am missing something here (Post #426), I invite correction from anyone. TIA

 

[cookie man]

Hey cookie man! I've been banging my head against this thread for days now, and believe the differences between Dave and PJ have their basis in definitions. I think they are both just supporting their own position, but again each is based on a different understanding. Read post #426 - I really think it spells the problem out in the simplest words. The bridge PJ envisions, I believe, is like an oar lock, if you know what that is. The oar on a rowboat passes through it, and can rotate about a fixed pivot axis. If I am missing something here (Post #426), I invite correction from anyone. TIA

The oar lock and Dave's bridge are the same,the cue rotates in it but the bridge doesn't move. Then you calll it the pivot point and I don't necessarily agree with that. I feel the pivot point is about 4 inches behind the bridge, but I'm just a cookie man so what do I know.

 

[Colin Colenso]

I think your top drawing shows pivoting at the hip, and you bottom drawing shows moving your back hand. What makes it interesting is you clearly have to move your back hand in the bottom drawing to hit the ball, however on the top drawing you pivot from the hip,bridge hand stays still, ball goes in pocket, end of story WOW!!!!

Cookie Man,

Neither of these show pivoting from the hip. If they did the red dot would be way right of those positions.

IMHO the hip pivot/shift v back hand shift is ludicrous. You can put your hip and your ear on the roof and it won't make an iota of difference if the bridge hand pivot stays in place. If the cue hits toward the CB core from a fixed bridge point, then the line of shot is always the exact same, so long as there is not swooping (sideways movement of the cue).

Colin

 

[cookie man]

Colin I just stated how your drawings appeared to me, and how they worked with my stroke. I don't swoop but the two hits are different.

 

[Colin Colenso]

The body move may provide a different line of sight, but center ball is center ball with regard to the stick and the fixed bridge.

Exactly, and concisely said.

The center-ball perception for shifting head/body position is just a red herring created by people wishing to find some way out of linearity.
You won't see a proponent of this system criticise such speculations. All speculations are seen as good speculations if it seems to find a way out of obeying basic geometry.

If the system really was a developed system, it would have a clear and concise explanation of how different aims lines are created with a fixed bridge through the center of the CB.

It does not, and hence it is not a complete system. It is a ball park system that proponents want to believe is a more comprehensive system. In fact it is very limited and requires significant undescribed adjustments to make it work for a reasonable range of shots.

Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin I just stated how your drawings appeared to me, and how they worked with my stroke. I don't swoop but the two hits are different.

Ok, not sure what you are doing, but try making the bridge rock solid and then try to pivot at somewhere other than the bridge. Move your hips around as much as you please and see whether you can create any different shot lines shooting center CB.

Colin

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Yeah, I guess so.

So, was that you or not? You claimed not to be a P.O. but then, in your words, were a P.O. in Chicago? You made the bet so I think you should at least give an honest response.

What bet did I make that has anything to do with this?

If you had bothered to read the rest of that historic thread you'd probably know the answer.

Get a life. <- honest response

pj
chgo

 

[Koop]

What bet did I make that has anything to do with this?

If you had bothered to read the rest of that historic thread you'd probably know the answer.

Get a life. <- honest response

pj
chgo

LOL. Me get a life. Good one.

Pay up and leave.

 

[dr_dave]

The center-ball perception for shifting head/body position is just a red herring created by people wishing to find some way out of linearity.
You won't see a proponent of this system criticise such speculations. All speculations are seen as good speculations if it seems to find a way out of obeying basic geometry.

If you move your head while you are pivoting the cue, won't you get a different perspective on where the tip is relative to the ball than if you didn't move your head? I don't think this is a red herring. I think it is a real effect.

Unfortunately, the final line of aim will depend on bridge length, the distance between the tip and the CB, how much one moves their head and line of vision, how one perceives "center ball" from a line of vision not aligned with the cue (with the back-hand pivot approach), etc. There seems to be many variables involved with the pivot techniques. Now I think I understand how so many lines of aim can result from a single alignment.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Colin Colenso]

If you move your head while you are pivoting the cue, won't you get a different perspective on where the tip is relative to the ball than if you didn't move your head? I don't think this is a red herring. I think it is a real effect.

Unfortunately, the final line of aim will depend on bridge length, the distance between the tip and the CB, how much one moves their head and line of vision, how one perceives "center ball" from a line of vision not aligned with the cue (with the back-hand pivot approach), etc. There seems to be many variables involved with the pivot techniques. Now I think I understand how so many lines of aim can result from a single alignment.

Regards,
Dave

Yes Dave, if you move your head, the perception can change and hence players might make errors in aligning to the CB.

But this is a red herring because I am sure this is not what Ron V, or most of his proponents are saying they do, or even think they are doing.

It may be raised as a possible explanation, but I think that it is grasping at straws. A system that makes balls due to subconscious sighting errors would be a pretty poor system. Also, if we look at the system in detail we'd find that a set bridge point would lead to a singular aim angle. On shots one side of this, the sighting errors may assist, but on the other side of that angle they would increase the error.

When someone says that the use this system, but use an adjustment method for various angles and distances that incorporates a bridge shift, then the system can be taken seriously. The explanations we've heard are smoke and mirrors IMHO.

Colin

 

[dr_dave]

Yes Dave, if you move your head, the perception can change and hence players might make errors in aligning to the CB.

But this is a red herring because I am sure this is not what Ron V, or most of his proponents are saying they do, or even think they are doing.

It may be raised as a possible explanation, but I think that it is grasping at straws. A system that makes balls due to subconscious sighting errors would be a pretty poor system. Also, if we look at the system in detail we'd find that a set bridge point would lead to a singular aim angle. On shots one side of this, the sighting errors may assist, but on the other side of that angle they would increase the error.

When someone says that the use this system, but use an adjustment method for various angles and distances that incorporates a bridge shift, then the system can be taken seriously. The explanations we've heard are smoke and mirrors IMHO.

Colin

I have also been frustrated by the lack of clear explanations. I was skeptical to begin with. Now I think I am even more skeptical.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Colin Colenso]

I have also been frustrated by the lack of clear explanations. I was skeptical to begin with. Now I think I am even more skeptical.

Regards,
Dave

Dave,

Another point I forgot to mention:

If changing the head position leads to some misalignment to one side of the center of the CB, lets say 2mm to the left of center as an example, then there is still no way to say that such misalignment leads to sending the CB left or right of the line that would be achieved if the cue was aligned to the exact center of the CB.

If the pivot length was shorter than the cue's effective pivot point, then the CB will go to the left, if it was longer, then the CB will squirt out to the right.

If these things aren't considered in a system requiring head shift perception errors, then it is hardly a system.

Colin

 

[dr_dave]

Dave,

Another point I forgot to mention:

If changing the head position leads to some misalignment to one side of the center of the CB, lets say 2mm to the left of center as an example, then there is still no way to say that such misalignment leads to sending the CB left or right on the line that would be achieved if the cue was aligned to the exact center of the CB.

If the pivot length was shorter than the cue's effective pivot point, then the CB will go to the left, if it was longer, then the CB will squirt out to the right.

If these things aren't considered in a system requiring head shift perception errors, then it is hardly a system.

Colin

Good points.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Sorry to bring Bob, Jal, Mike and Dr. Dave into this. I hope each of you might respond someway. ...

I already provided some input. Based on the response, I don't think further inputs will be useful.

 

[Cuemaster98]

You'll hold your stick in normal shooting position with your bridge hand on the table as usual and, without moving your bridge hand or any part of it and without removing your stick from it, leaving everything in place as if you're going to shoot a normal shot, you'll pivot your stick around a point that's somewhere other than at your bridge hand.

Is that right?

pj
chgo

How can you guys use math and physic to address a real human function. You can't. Too many unknown elements that math and physic do not account for. Also..again, the fixed bridge hand have multiple pivot points..if this true which it is than you can have multiple line to the exact center of the ball.

BH movement in reality is different than Hip movement....how can it not be? Human..not robot!!! Bet was on a real situation...not based on geometry..or physic!! For proof..tape your bridge hand fixed on the table...now shoot the two shot with both technique...if this work...than guess who win? Physic and Geometry is great for explanation but there are elements in system such as Ron that you can't use physic or math because it's not an exact system that required feel. How does geometry, physic...account for "Feel"? How ironic LOL!!

Regards,
Duc.

 

[Colin Colenso]

I already provided some input. Based on the response, I don't think further inputs will be useful.

That's understandable Bob. I don't think further posting is particularly useful for any of us. Though Patrick is being berated for not paying up and calls are being made for his lopping from these forums. That doesn't seem just to me.

Anyway, I think your earlier post makes your position adequately. I'll repost it here for convenience.

Originally Posted by cleary
See, the whole bet was, "the bridge doesnt move" which is represented by the blue dot... "The bridge". It doesnt and shouldnt move. what should move is the white dot (the pivot point). The pivot point starts in the bridge and once you do your hip pivot, the pivot point moves backward with the cue due to the natural motion of moving your body.

See, if PJ would have went to the table AND TRIED THIS, he might have figured this out. But he didnt and it cost him $1000.

BOB: I find your definition of a pivot point different from the definition I've seen in all previous discussions of the subject. Maybe you haven't seen those previous discussions. I think Dr. Dave covered it, but here is my take:

At one time in setting up the shot, the stick is set along a particular line. Call that line 1. At a second time in setting up the shot (typically just before the final stroke is taken) the stick is along a different line, line 2. Those two lines meet in a point. That point is the pivot point in all the previous discussions.

You seem to have taken some other point -- the white point -- and claim that it is the pivot point even though it moves during the shot while the bridge doesn't move. Is that correct?
__________________
Bob Jewett

 

[cookie man]

At one time in setting up the shot, the stick is set along a particular line. Call that line 1. At a second time in setting up the shot (typically just before the final stroke is taken) the stick is along a different line, line 2. Those two lines meet in a point. That point is the pivot point in all the previous discussions.
So if this is the pivot point, and it is not at the bridge, and we all agree that the stick can move left to right without the bridge hand moving ( try it ) than I think it is pretty clear spidey won the bet. Can we move on to part 2 of the system?

 

[Bob Jewett]

... So if this is the pivot point, and it is not at the bridge, and we all agree that the stick can move left to right without the bridge hand moving ( try it ) ...

It depends on how tight/firm your bridge is. Does it work with a firm, open bridge?

 

[cookie man]

Yes..........

 

[unknownpro]

That's understandable Bob. I don't think further posting is particularly useful for any of us. Though Patrick is being berated for not paying up and calls are being made for his lopping from these forums. That doesn't seem just to me.

Understatement of the year. Patrick is right, anybody arguing against him is wrong. Plain wrong. Irrefutably wrong. So wrong that it makes me worry about the future of this country. So wrong I have to question either their sincerity or their sanity.