Ron V aiming system video and diagrams
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PJ:
I don't argue your math. I'd go all-in it's accurate.
Given a 10" bridge....
Make a grid.....
Find the distance of the tip pivot for.....
1) 13" pivot point
2) 15" pivot point
3) 18" pivot point
A) 0.5" pivot point offset to the right
B) 0.7" pivot point offset to the right
C) 1.0" pivot point offset to the right
Just for fun. I know you think it's all impossible. But for shits and giggles... I kinda wanna see the differences. I think the pivot point shifts right and back. Just a hypothesis.
Dave
I don't argue your math. I'd go all-in it's accurate.
Given a 10" bridge....
Make a grid.....
Find the distance of the tip pivot for.....
1) 13" pivot point
2) 15" pivot point
3) 18" pivot point
A) 0.5" pivot point offset to the right
B) 0.7" pivot point offset to the right
C) 1.0" pivot point offset to the right
Just for fun. I know you think it's all impossible. But for shits and giggles... I kinda wanna see the differences. I think the pivot point shifts right and back. Just a hypothesis.
Dave
cigjonser said:
We don't mind; it's usually a short trip.
Funny, I don't remember this last part. I remember System User saying "I know exactly how the system works; it works exactly as advertised and you'd know that if you weren't so closed minded and anti-system that you refuse to call the system's creator and take a lesson before questioning System Geometry(TM)."
pj
chgo
RonV said:
Very true! I like your style, Ron!
Schmohawk said:
Looks like and urban legend but one that is widely thought to be true.
http://www.time.com/time/2007/einstein/3.html
I don't follow your question exactly, Dave, but here's the math for what I said above. I did this earlier for your 60" shot, and it shows that 1/2" of pivot point movement is needed to close the 3" gap between the OB and the ghost cue ball at 60" distance.
This looks complicated, but it essentially illustrates that the center of the cue ball is a fulcrum which "leverages" 1 unit of pivot point movement into 6 units of ghost ball movement (10 inches of pivot length vs. 60 inches of CB/OB distance). This is why 1/2" of pivot point lateral movement = 3" of ghost ball lateral movement.
If the OB is 75" from the CB then the pivot point must move a little over 9/16" (23/40") to hit the OB thin and almost 3/4" (29/40") for a half ball hit. Here's the math for that without the drawing:
pj <- nuts
chgo
P.S. If the pivot point shifts back as well as laterally, then the required lateral shift is greater.
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Patrick Johnson said:
I think we're on to something. To say there's just under an inch of pivot point of lateral movement is realistic in my mind. When I pivot around the hip, the cue moves radially and laterally is not rotating around the bridge.
Your diagram is small, but you still have the cue rotating from the bridge point - which I know I'm not doing. It's not my intention to rehash the war, I'm just saying I know for a fact it's not rotating from that point - and my video shows me hitting the ball.
Ya know, when you rotate from the hip, the upper arm, forearm and torso move in one unit. If the bridge was a rotational pivot point, you couldn't move your body at all. The bridge hand would prevent the body from rotating and vice versa.
Gotta pass out - will catch-up tomorrow.
P.S. Per your diagram, I agree you miss the ball with the bridge pivot (rotating around that point). Let's explore why that isn't so on a hip pivot. Put your cue on one of those mechanical bridges and put the shaft into the slot. Try to pivot around the hip and not break your wrist. You can't. The pivot point must laterally shift - and your soft hand allows it. It's slight - I almost can't tell the difference from a bridge pivot and hip pivot in my hand. Just a "going to bed thought".
Will read this in the morning.
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Koop said:
True or not he was obviously a great mathematician.
pj
chgo
Your stick pivots within your bridge. You might move your bridge or you might shift the pivot point within it (by a very small amount), but your stick pivots within your bridge. There's no getting around that. It's as certain as the fact that a teeter totter pivots at its fulcrum.
pj
chgo
Patrick Johnson said:
I edited my post above and added to it. Read that and comment (with the mechanical bridge and a hip pivot). I think the pivot point shifts on an x axis and y axis.
We'll figure this out once and for all once someone with a digital camcorder can do a top/down video and we use editing software to mark the points.
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Patrick Johnson said:
I don't see why a stick would have to pivot within your bridge if the bridge is very loose and you allow the stick to move sideways across the resting area. The pivot point could be well back of the bridge in that case. But it's also quite unusual and unstable.
Why is no one else keying in on this????
Pats diagram is correct for what it shows (the 90/90), however, when the distance between the cue ball and the object ball lengthens, the angle of the line of centers and the line of the object ball to the pocket changes. It becomes a different angle that requires a different aiming point on the object ball.
All that is being discussed or argued about is the fact that the one starting point doesn't work for all angles. And in fact, no one ever said that it did.
I'm in the process of getting transfered and moving, but as soon as I am settled I am calling Ron, because this system offers alot of possibility. I for one would like to see the entire system instead arguing about an arbitrary point that has no bearing on anything.
Chuck
Pats diagram is correct for what it shows (the 90/90), however, when the distance between the cue ball and the object ball lengthens, the angle of the line of centers and the line of the object ball to the pocket changes. It becomes a different angle that requires a different aiming point on the object ball.
All that is being discussed or argued about is the fact that the one starting point doesn't work for all angles. And in fact, no one ever said that it did.
I'm in the process of getting transfered and moving, but as soon as I am settled I am calling Ron, because this system offers alot of possibility. I for one would like to see the entire system instead arguing about an arbitrary point that has no bearing on anything.
Chuck
bluepepper said:
Practically speaking it has to pivot within your bridge because your bridge hand holds it still at the pivot point and it would take extaordinary effort to make it pivot somewhere else.
You could toss it into the air and make it "pivot" like a baton with nothing holding it, but what use is that fact to this discussion?
pj
chgo
PJ's diagrams on the first page of this thread showed how the angle changes depending on CB - OB separation. It has been part of the discussion most the way.RiverCity said:
Colin
Thats the point.... instead of discussing the system as far as how it works, and what adjustments need to be made, all that is being kicked around is the pivot point and where the pivot actually is. The location of the pivot seems to be a non issue to the functionality of the aiming system.Colin Colenso said:
The adjustments that are required based on distance and angle are important. However that is not the focal point of this thread.
Chuck
Chuck,RiverCity said:
For those of us who have spent quite a bit of time studying the nature of the geometry of pivoting we all pretty much agree that if the bridge doesn't move then it is THE pivot point.
So until we get past that sticking point, whether there are any adjustments and how they are implemented is a bit like asking which way we are driving while still looking for the car keys.
In all the posts here, from those familiar with 90/90, I don't recall anyone mentioning adjustments. Seems Ron and others are pretty firm on the idea that all you need to do is align 90/90, then hip pivot to center of the cue. It was suggested that the system does not work well under 2 feet of separation.
I could suggest a table of adjustments that would make this work, but that is jumping in front of where most of the audience of this thread is at. Let's wait for the video to see if anyone can make these shots aligning 90/90 without moving the bridge for shots over 50 inches.
I suspect close up video will show us bridge movements which will be pretty close to exactly what amounts that PJ's math suggested. That would mean we are seeing a shifting pivot point.
If people agreed that a shifting pivot point was the mechanism, then we could suggest a systematic approach to how this pivot shift changes with shot distance, bridge length and pot angle. Personally I think it would be too complex to be particularly useful, but it might be used as a guide for 'feeling' new line to the center CB.
Hope my response is along the lines of your query.
Colin
Colin Colenso said:
There are different aim, Colin. 90/90 doesn't make every ball on the table. This has been discussed a lot. Cleary was going to post the rest but became frustrated and quit the thread, as I have a few times.
I know the system inside and out, but I'm not posting anything until I can convince you that the bridge doesn't move and I can hip-pivot a shot in from a distance so far away your head would spin.
I was working with PJ in the post above because in my mind..."IT IS WHAT IT IS." Might as well figure out why it DOES work, because it does. Like I said a million times. I could have 10 people watch me and measure my cue to ensure I'm not cheating and ensure my tip is at the 90/90 position and you'll watch me hip pivot that shot in from the farthest reaches of the table (on top of the rail at one corner pocket to just outside the opposite corner pocket).
Everyone would scratch their head and wonder why. For me, it doesn't matter why--- because it "just is."
We're obviously missing something here, mathematically. Per PJ's diagrams, I miss that ball by a MILE....but....I don't. Not even close. AND, mind you...I'm not cheating the setup.
Obviously, I've tested the hell out of this system with different lengths of shots (to the mega-extreme) using string and a laser pointer and the ball goes (and the bridge isn't moving a hair). Since I was about to hop in a car with a G in my pocket and drive 6 hours to OH, I'm 100% positive on everything I just said-- it's not feel and I'm not doing something sub-consciously. I've heavily tested this....to death.
Anyways, I hope we can work together to show why it really does work. If not, I'll just bow out like Cleary and let you guys have at it.
Dave