Ron V aiming system video and diagrams

Patrick Johnson said:
More to the point, it's obvious in RonV's video and his description of it that he does not move his bridge hand and does move his back hand, which means he pivots at the bridge.

pj
chgo

Wrong, PJ. Just because you don't move your bridge and move your back hand--- that does NOT mean all pivots are equal. You do not have to move your bridge hand to change your pivot point. The cue is merely moving radially through your hand (it's it between a bridge pivot and lateral movement).

I don't think you wanna keep up this "all pivots are made at the bridge" argument. Let's just each drop it and that'll make me disappear from the thread forever.
 
Just because you don't move your bridge and move your back hand--- that does NOT mean all pivots are equal. You do not have to move your bridge hand to change your pivot point.

I say this with no animosity: it's mind boggling that you think these statements make sense.

I don't think you wanna keep up this "all pivots are made at the bridge" argument. Let's just each drop it and that'll make me disappear from the thread forever.

I'm really not interested in arguing with you personally, Dave, but you've made such a big deal about "correcting the misinformation in this thread" (i.e., the things I've said), that I'm afraid I just have to call a spade a spade - you're completely, and painfully obviously, wrong about this.

Your statements above show such a fundamental misunderstanding of the simplest geometry (I mean simple like "the shortest distance between two points is a straight line") that I have to question your ability to say anything meaningful about how such systems work.

I'm not disputing that this system works for you (and others), but you obviously have no idea how or why.

pj
chgo
 
Grade school geometry states 2 points determine a line. A cue is a line...right? So where is the line(cue) before the pivot and after the pivot? Spider's bridge hand doesnt SEEM to move...but if it didnt...then he is pivoting about the bridge point.

Something is unexplained in Spider's video. Move your grip hand or move your ass...the result SHOULD be the same.

The rules of simple geometry have not changed (as far as I know) :-) Im with pj and curious whats REALLY going on.
 
That's my point. It's all geometry. When you body pivot, your pivot point is behind the bridge and the cue moves radially through the bridge. For me, it's not mind-boggling that you don't get it. I believe you see the bridge as a single "point" with no geometry to it... and it's not, that's the break-down.

The difference between the two is with the bridge pivot-- the bridge is the center of the circle, with the shaft being the full radius of the circle. With a body pivot, you're bridging at a point that is on the radius, between the edge and center of the circle.

What I don't understand is why you wouldn't make different diagrams with a pivot point in the center of the cue and one with the pivot point at the butt of the cue. Just re-do the diagram and let's start the discussion all over again. The bridge isn't a true geometrical pivot "point"--- it's not resistant to radial motion. (that's what's going on)

EDIT:
I never had less than an A in geometry. I'm a pretty smart guy, in general. Your vision of a pool player bridging a cue as a line with a pivot point is laughable.....seriously. Unless the pool player has lost an arm and is using a small "loop" for a bridge that allows for zero movement, no player would fit into that category. Stop digging your own geometry hole. Eventually, more "educated" players will make it to a table and report back.
 
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With a body pivot, you're bridging at a point that is on the radius, between the edge and center of the circle.

How far from your first bridge? A fraction of an inch? Several inches? A couple of feet?

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
How far from your first bridge? A fraction of an inch? Several inches? A couple of feet?

pj
chgo

Ah one step at a time, grasshopper. We haven't made it past the bridge is a point thing. Once you agree that it doesn't have to be, we can move on. That's fundamental to all pivot systems.
 
How far from your first bridge? A fraction of an inch? Several inches? A couple of feet?

pj
chgo

Ah one step at a time, grasshopper. We haven't made it past the bridge is a point thing. Once you agree that it doesn't have to be, we can move on. That's fundamental to all pivot systems.

Frankly, I was only asking to see if there might possibly be a hint of credibility in what you're saying, but it was a long shot. If you had said the pivot only moves an inch or less then I could agree that you might "lean" your bridge hand that much without actually moving it on the cloth. But if you're trying to say the pivot point moves away from your bridge hand somehow, then that is, without question, utter nonsense and you should take your own advice and not dig yourself any deeper.

There's only one definition of pivot point, and that's the point on your stick that doesn't move when you pivot, and that can only be at the bridge. It doesn't matter how you move the rest of the stick, whether you hold it at the butt or at the tip or somewhere in between, or whether you move your hip or dance a jig or sing karaoke while doing it.

This isn't some subtle theory, Dave - this is as basic, clear cut and unquestionable as the moon isn't made of cheese.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Frankly, I was only asking to see if there might possibly be a hint of credibility in what you're saying, but it was a long shot. If you had said the pivot only moves an inch or less then I could agree that you might "lean" your bridge hand that much without actually moving it on the cloth. But if you're trying to say the pivot point moves away from your bridge hand somehow, then that is, without question, utter nonsense and you should take your own advice and not dig yourself any deeper.

There's only one definition of pivot point, and that's the point on your stick that doesn't move when you pivot, and that can only be at the bridge. It doesn't matter how you move the rest of the stick, whether you hold it at the butt or at the tip or somewhere in between, or whether you move your hip or dance a jig or sing karaoke while doing it.

This isn't some subtle theory, Dave - this is as basic, clear cut and unquestionable as the moon isn't made of cheese.

pj
chgo

Ok. Wanna bet something? Based on what you're saying - this should be like clubbing baby seals. Since you're scared to death to meet in person and won't let me buy your airplane ticket.... how about you tell me how to prove it better than I did (which was great, IMO) and I'm in. Just something friendly, so we know we'll pay. Everyone reading who wants PJ on the side and thinks I'm utterly wrong, PM me so I know who you are and I'm in.

This "i'm smart" shits gonna end. Where's TAR at? I want this streamed live. GOT IT Mr Underline?

I think whoever is wrong should leave AZB forever. It'll be like one of those WWE "career" matches or something. I'm in. Put up or STFU YOU SCARED TO DEATH NAIVE KNOW-NOTHING.

EDIT: THE ONLY THING MADE OUT OF CHEESE IS YOUR NITTIFIED HEART
 
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What I don't understand is why you wouldn't make different diagrams with a pivot point in the center of the cue and one with the pivot point at the butt of the cue.

The reason I wouldn't do this is because they're both meaningless impossibilities. To even ask the question proves beyond a doubt that you don't have a clue what your suggesting. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but I'm trying to get through to you how absolutely certain this is. There's no question. The pivot is at the bridge.

pj
chgo
 
SpiderWebComm said:
Ok. Wanna bet something? Based on what you're saying - this should be like clubbing baby seals. Since you're scared to death to meet in person and won't let me buy your airplane ticket.... how about you tell me how to prove it better than I did (which was great, IMO) and I'm in. Just something friendly, so we know we'll pay. Everyone reading who wants PJ on the side and thinks I'm utterly wrong, PM me so I know who you are and I'm in.

This "i'm smart" shits gonna end. Where's TAR at? I want this streamed live. GOT IT Mr Underline?

I think whoever is wrong should leave AZB forever. It'll be like one of those WWE "career" matches or something. I'm in. Put up or STFU YOU SCARED TO DEATH NAIVE KNOW-NOTHING.

EDIT: THE ONLY THING MADE OUT OF CHEESE IS YOUR NITTIFIED HEART

Calm down, man - this isn't worth popping a vessel over. If you want a bet we'll bet, as soon as you say exactly what it is you're claiming so we can figure out how to test it.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Calm down, man - this isn't worth popping a vessel over. If you want a bet we'll bet, as soon as you say exactly what it is you're claiming so we can figure out how to test it.

pj
chgo

I'm totally calm. I'm just not taking your condescending talk when I know I'm right. If you don't know what I'm talking about, you must be rattled. Calm down.... and re-read your last few posts. The bridge isn't the pivot point boy-genius. Bet something. No more talk. No more underlining.

Come one come all. I wasn't planning to go to the US OPEN- but we can all meet at Q-Masters and I'll show ya how it works, but I want something for it. Put up PaJamaboy
 
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SpiderWebComm said:
I'm totally calm. I'm just not taking your condescending talk when I know I'm right. If you don't know what I'm talking about, you must be rattled. Calm down.... and re-read your last few posts. The bridge isn't the pivot point boy-genius. Bet something. No more talk. No more underlining.

You'll hold your stick in normal shooting position with your bridge hand on the table as usual and, without moving your bridge hand or any part of it and without removing your stick from it, leaving everything in place as if you're going to shoot a normal shot, you'll pivot your stick around a point that's somewhere other than at your bridge hand.

Is that right?

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
You'll hold your stick in normal shooting position with your bridge hand on the table as usual and, without moving your bridge hand or any part of it and without removing your stick from it, leaving everything in place as if you're going to shoot a normal shot, you'll pivot your stick around a point that's somewhere other than at your bridge hand.

Is that right?

pj
chgo

Bet something mr. geometry. You're faltering. Get up and bet.

edit- where's the tap dance music at? wanna dial a friend or something? call dr. dave, if I were you

edit2- better watch my video a few times capt. geometry
 
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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson
You'll hold your stick in normal shooting position with your bridge hand on the table as usual and, without moving your bridge hand or any part of it and without removing your stick from it, leaving everything in place as if you're going to shoot a normal shot, you'll pivot your stick around a point that's somewhere other than at your bridge hand.

Is that right?

pj
chgo


Bet something mr. geometry. You're faltering. Get up and bet.

edit- where's the tap dance music at? wanna dial a friend or something? call dr. dave, if I were you

If you agree that's the bet I'll take any amount up to $5,000, which I'll post with anybody we can mutually agree on. We can also bet something else if money's not your cup of tea, or money plus something else.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
If you agree that's the bet I'll take any amount up to $5,000, which I'll post with anybody we can mutually agree on. We can also bet something else if money's not your cup of tea, or money plus something else.

pj
chgo

Wow. I wanted to keep it friendly, but now that i can get all the money, let me see if I can raise the $5k. If I can, I'm in - and we'll let TAR stream it. Nothing like having a sucker step into you on the internet, this is a dream.

This is historic... I make a video showing how it's done and someone wants to bet 5 LMAO. I also wanna bet the loser is perma-banned from AZB while you're at it.
 
Flex said:
I'll try.

First, figure out the line from the object ball to the pocket you want. Then walk over behind the cue ball and line the cue ball up with the object ball so you are looking at it straight on. Place your tip in the 90/90 position as shown in the drawing in the original post from the original poster. Now, compare the angle of the cue in the 90/90 position, to the angle of the object ball going into the pocket. There is an angle formed that between the two cue sticks. If you can just estimate what the angle is in degrees, that's quicker. If not, you need to try to calculate it roughly. Now, a 90 degree angle divided into 15 degree segments ( you could use other segments too, it's just a rough approximation) will give you equal 5 slices, or actually 6 aim lines. Once you find the angle you wish to use, say the third line, which would be equivalent approximately to a 30 degree cut, divide the object ball into 6 equidistant slices. Then point the tip of the cue from the 90 position on the cue ball straight at the 3rd line of 6, or just a bit less than the center of the object ball. Set up as if you were going to stroke through the 90 position on the cue ball straight at the 3rd line, but instead of shooting on that line, pivot the cue stick to dead center ball on the cue ball, aim a bit above center and roll the ball at say, lag speed, or maybe half that, and see where the object ball goes. For this to work reliably for you, you need to be able to reproduce an accurate, repeatable stroke. If you strike off the center, you'll be introducing english, either left or right, and that will definitely affect where the cue ball goes, and also impart a different kind of throw on the OB than you expect.

Sure wish I could draw this, but am WEI table challenged :confused:

Hope this helps.

Flex

I get it now Flex. It's just as complicated as the aiming systems I've come up with recently. But I see how it would work. Thanks.
 
You'll hold your stick in normal shooting position with your bridge hand on the table as usual and, without moving your bridge hand or any part of it and without removing your stick from it, leaving everything in place as if you're going to shoot a normal shot, you'll pivot your stick around a point that's somewhere other than at your bridge hand.

Is that right?

pj
chgo

Bet something mr. geometry. You're faltering. Get up and bet.

edit- where's the tap dance music at? wanna dial a friend or something? call dr. dave, if I were you

If you agree that's the bet I'll take any amount up to $5,000, which I'll post with anybody we can mutually agree on. We can also bet something else if money's not your cup of tea, or money plus something else.

pj
chgo


Wow. I wanted to keep it friendly, but now that i can get all the money, let me see if I can raise the $5k. If I can, I'm in - and we'll let TAR stream it. Nothing like having a sucker step into you on the internet, this is a dream.

This is historic... I make a video showing how it's done and someone wants to bet 5 LMAO. I also wanna bet the loser is perma-banned from AZB while you're at it.

Alright, you agree that you have to accomplish what I described in my post #133, (which is unedited so there's an undisputable record of it) and which you quoted above when you accepted my $5,000 bet. I also accept the additional bet of permanent banning from AZB.

Now all we need is a judge we can agree on and somebody to post with. I suggest Bob Jewett or Mike Page as the judge. They both have technical graduate degrees and I trust both of them. Mike is an acquaintance of mine, so you might want to choose Bob, whom I've never met.

pj
chgo
 
got it working!

OK, in some limited testing I have pivot to center working. Amazingly simple really. Working at home I am using a cue stick and pucks on a smooth surface. I'll have to get to the pool hall to try it on a table. Maybe tomorrow.

Hu
 
Dave,

Can you just clarify again if you think your bridge position (here I mean the exact position of the cue above the bridge) moved laterally at all during your hip pivot?

Because, if the cue pivots at some point other than the bridge point, for it to also pass over the same bridge point it would have to bend.

I think it is quite easy to shift a bridge a few mm without realizing it. This is why people stuggle to learn BHE. They don't realize they are twisting their bridge hand a little during the pivot.

Colin
 
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