Round Robin and Elitism in Pool - Count Me In!

sjm

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Pool fans are in for a real treat when it comes to the format being used in Orlando.

Billiards realized long ago that certain players have earned the right to be treated as elite. When you go to a three cushion event, the elite (and I'm not sure what the criteria are) are usually exempt from the qualifying round robin, not required to play until the final stage.

Based on the many posts I've read on this forum that suggest that even seeding offers the elite an unconscionable advantage, I suspect that this might not fly in most pool tournaments.

The truth is, however, that this results in a tournament that gradually builds to a climax, and that when the elite begin to participate, their presence is made even more special. I believe that the exemption of twelve BCA Hall of Famers into the third round robin will cause a similar type of electricity among the fans.

Nobody understands this more than tournament director Deno Andrews, whose competitive background is in three cushion billiards. As one who has attended numerous three cushion torunaments live, I've also seen it up close, and it is a great format.

I think that right now, there are those who feel that this format is unfair, but just watch. This format will be electrifying, and will ensure some memorable matchups between the emerging stars of today and the legends of yesteryear, who still play extremely well. Imagine an Archer, Hohmann, or Immonen sqaring off with Buddy Hall, Nick Varner or Jimmy Rempe in the late rounds with the biggest prize any of them have ever eyed within their grasp. It's a breathtaking thought to me.

Pool players tend to frown on elitism on the tournament scene, but the truth is that it makes torunaments more special, and raises the profile of the game's superstars. Three cushion has shown the way, and pool would be wise to take note. To our good fortune, the IPT has followed the lead of the top three cushion events.

The IPT is on the verge of delievering, what I believe, will be a very special event in Orlando. Oh, how I wish I were going!
 
Tap, Tap, Tap.

I sure am looking forward to being there.

But it does pose another problem. With all the good matches going on at once which one will I focus on? No more waiting for a pro to finish off Joe the plumber so I can see a good match.

Jake
 
sjm said:
Pool fans are in for a real treat when it comes to the format being used in Orlando.

Billiards realized long ago that certain players have earned the right to be treated as elite. When you go to a three cushion event, the elite (and I'm not sure what the criteria are) are usually exempt from the qualifying round robin, not required to play until the final stage.

Based on the many posts I've read on this forum that suggest that even seeding offers the elite an unconscionable advantage, I suspect that this might not fly in most pool tournaments.

The truth is, however, that this results in a tournament that gradually builds to a climax, and that when the elite begin to participate, their presence is made even more special. I believe that the exemption of twelve BCA Hall of Famers into the third round robin will cause a similar type of electricity among the fans.

Nobody understands this more than tournament director Deno Andrews, whose competitive background is in three cushion billiards. As one who has attended numerous three cushion torunaments live, I've also seen it up close, and it is a great format.

I think that right now, there are those who feel that this format is unfair, but just watch. This format will be electrifying, and will ensure some memorable matchups between the emerging stars of today and the legends of yesteryear, who still play extremely well. Imagine an Archer, Hohmann, or Immonen sqaring off with Buddy Hall, Nick Varner or Jimmy Rempe in the late rounds with the biggest prize any of them have ever eyed within their grasp. It's a breathtaking thought to me.

Pool players tend to frown on elitism on the tournament scene, but the truth is that it makes torunaments more special, and raises the profile of the game's superstars. Three cushion has shown the way, and pool would be wise to take note. To our good fortune, the IPT has followed the lead of the top three cushion events.

The IPT is on the verge of delievering, what I believe, will be a very special event in Orlando. Oh, how I wish I were going!
Click to expand...

Special for the fans...maybe. Electrifying...unlikely. Unfair...definately.
But what about the players? I don't like being penalized through handicapping in local tourneys with lesser players - why would anyone like being penalized with stronger players? How does this help the roster grow? You called it right the first time: elitist B.S. - let 'em earn their way in.
 
Even if the HOF members do not win a single rack, they are guaranteed more prize money than the first round losers who just miss the cut. That is ridiculously unfair.
 
jsp said:
Even if the HOF members do not win a single rack, they are guaranteed more prize money than the first round losers who just miss the cut. That is ridiculously unfair.
Click to expand...
These HOFers have devoted so much of their time and life to the sport and it's about time that has been recognised! I think it's great!
 
sjm said:
Pool fans are in for a real treat when it comes to the format being used in Orlando.

Billiards realized long ago that certain players have earned the right to be treated as elite. When you go to a three cushion event, the elite (and I'm not sure what the criteria are) are usually exempt from the qualifying round robin, not required to play until the final stage.

Based on the many posts I've read on this forum that suggest that even seeding offers the elite an unconscionable advantage, I suspect that this might not fly in most pool tournaments.

The truth is, however, that this results in a tournament that gradually builds to a climax, and that when the elite begin to participate, their presence is made even more special. I believe that the exemption of twelve BCA Hall of Famers into the third round robin will cause a similar type of electricity among the fans.

Nobody understands this more than tournament director Deno Andrews, whose competitive background is in three cushion billiards. As one who has attended numerous three cushion torunaments live, I've also seen it up close, and it is a great format.

I think that right now, there are those who feel that this format is unfair, but just watch. This format will be electrifying, and will ensure some memorable matchups between the emerging stars of today and the legends of yesteryear, who still play extremely well. Imagine an Archer, Hohmann, or Immonen sqaring off with Buddy Hall, Nick Varner or Jimmy Rempe in the late rounds with the biggest prize any of them have ever eyed within their grasp. It's a breathtaking thought to me.

Pool players tend to frown on elitism on the tournament scene, but the truth is that it makes torunaments more special, and raises the profile of the game's superstars. Three cushion has shown the way, and pool would be wise to take note. To our good fortune, the IPT has followed the lead of the top three cushion events.

The IPT is on the verge of delievering, what I believe, will be a very special event in Orlando. Oh, how I wish I were going!
Click to expand...


I disagree.

Having current universally recoognized champions exempt from the qualifying stages of a billiards tournament is a far cry from having unranked pool players enter a tournament at a stage where they comprise the overwhelming majority of players.

It may be fun, it may be interesting, it may be a nice gesture but it isnt competion at its best for sure.
 
I really wish that everyone would remember that this is an "invitational" event. Kevin Trudeau is giving away one million dollars of his own money to 43 players who are not paying an entry fee. He happens to hold the Hall of Fame players in high regard for their accomplishments in the industry and he has every right to pay them what he likes. It is true that many of the players who will be eliminated before the Hall of Fame round might play better than some of the Hall of Fame members currently...you cannot deny that each Hall of Fame member has paid his or her dues in the sport for decades. Also, this tournament is not a democracy or the result of endless subcommittee meetings on the format. It is the result of a guy who is giving 43 players a million dollards and doing it in the manner of his choice, and his team of people who recognize that this is something new and different. Please enjoy the Hall of Famer placement as what it is...a gesture to the Hall of Famers that hey...someone thinks you have brought value and meaning to an industry that has notoriously underpaid the players.

Finally, I don't hear any players who are in the tournament complaining about the Hall of Famers. In fact, every player I have spoken to thought it was a great gesture on Kevin's part.

Deno Andrews
 
Deno J. Andrews said:
I really wish that everyone would remember that this is an "invitational" event. Kevin Trudeau is giving away one million dollars of his own money to 43 players who are not paying an entry fee. He happens to hold the Hall of Fame players in high regard for their accomplishments in the industry and he has every right to pay them what he likes. It is true that many of the players who will be eliminated before the Hall of Fame round might play better than some of the Hall of Fame members currently...you cannot deny that each Hall of Fame member has paid his or her dues in the sport for decades. Also, this tournament is not a democracy or the result of endless subcommittee meetings on the format. It is the result of a guy who is giving 43 players a million dollards and doing it in the manner of his choice, and his team of people who recognize that this is something new and different. Please enjoy the Hall of Famer placement as what it is...a gesture to the Hall of Famers that hey...someone thinks you have brought value and meaning to an industry that has notoriously underpaid the players.

Finally, I don't hear any players who are in the tournament complaining about the Hall of Famers. In fact, every player I have spoken to thought it was a great gesture on Kevin's part.

Deno Andrews
Click to expand...

Right Deno-I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said. For what it is, it's fine-It's just not a legitimate format for a true competition which another poster implied (i think).
 
Deno J. Andrews said:
Finally, I don't hear any players who are in the tournament complaining about the Hall of Famers. In fact, every player I have spoken to thought it was a great gesture on Kevin's part.

Deno Andrews
Click to expand...

I don't think any of the players are going to complain about anything in public. Its all about the $
 
it is a nice gesture

KT could have simply given the Hall of Famers a thirty thousand guarantee to show up but that wouldn't have kept many of them from being chopped up and embarrassed by relative unknowns in the early going.

I think this format is a very fine gesture to the Hall of Famers and has the potential to be entertaining to a wide audience. I hope that something has been learned from the first production and this will at least resemble a sporting event.

Hu


Deno J. Andrews said:
I really wish that everyone would remember that this is an "invitational" event. Kevin Trudeau is giving away one million dollars of his own money to 43 players who are not paying an entry fee. He happens to hold the Hall of Fame players in high regard for their accomplishments in the industry and he has every right to pay them what he likes. It is true that many of the players who will be eliminated before the Hall of Fame round might play better than some of the Hall of Fame members currently...you cannot deny that each Hall of Fame member has paid his or her dues in the sport for decades. Also, this tournament is not a democracy or the result of endless subcommittee meetings on the format. It is the result of a guy who is giving 43 players a million dollards and doing it in the manner of his choice, and his team of people who recognize that this is something new and different. Please enjoy the Hall of Famer placement as what it is...a gesture to the Hall of Famers that hey...someone thinks you have brought value and meaning to an industry that has notoriously underpaid the players.

Finally, I don't hear any players who are in the tournament complaining about the Hall of Famers. In fact, every player I have spoken to thought it was a great gesture on Kevin's part.

Deno Andrews
Click to expand...
 
Deno J. Andrews said:
I really wish that everyone would remember that this is an "invitational" event. Kevin Trudeau is giving away one million dollars of his own money to 43 players who are not paying an entry fee. He happens to hold the Hall of Fame players in high regard for their accomplishments in the industry and he has every right to pay them what he likes. It is true that many of the players who will be eliminated before the Hall of Fame round might play better than some of the Hall of Fame members currently...you cannot deny that each Hall of Fame member has paid his or her dues in the sport for decades. Also, this tournament is not a democracy or the result of endless subcommittee meetings on the format. It is the result of a guy who is giving 43 players a million dollards and doing it in the manner of his choice, and his team of people who recognize that this is something new and different. Please enjoy the Hall of Famer placement as what it is...a gesture to the Hall of Famers that hey...someone thinks you have brought value and meaning to an industry that has notoriously underpaid the players.

Finally, I don't hear any players who are in the tournament complaining about the Hall of Famers. In fact, every player I have spoken to thought it was a great gesture on Kevin's part.

Deno Andrews
Click to expand...

Very well stated, Deno. These guys (and gals) have paid their dues and deserve the homage. No one before KT has ever even considered doing anything for them collectively.

'An industry that has notoriously underpaid the players'? I would like all those that are bad-mouthing the IPT to consider where these jokes came from:

Q: What do you call a pool player without a wife or a girlfriend?

A: Homeless.

Q: What's the difference between a pool player and a large Domino's pizza?

A: The pizza can feed a family of 4.

Look around and see that for the majority of players in the poolroom, that are trying to make a living playing pool, that is the reality!

The IPT is tryng to change that - to give respect back to our players that would be millionaires at the same level in golf, and kick off a new era in pool that perhaps one day - will be a valid career choice with scholarships in college, that we can be proud that our children followed in our footsteps, that we can all look anyone in the eye and be proud to say, "I am a pool player and so are my kids!"
 
Calls for more equality are a toxic side effect of the absurdly ridiculous movement of Egalitarianism.

In what business does one offer equal access to those of various abilities and value. Pro-sports are full of appearance monies, invitationals, qualification rounds and other such non-egalitarian factors.

The myth of perfect competition left us with the absurd and harmful anti-trust regulations, that extended from the concept that charging too low was 'undercutting or dumping', charging more became 'price gouging' and charging the same became 'collusion or price fixing'.

So, I quite like the format and think it will achieve its major goals of 1. Increasing interest / excitement. 2. Increase ratings and 3. Instill some goodwill among the industry by honoring its former greats.
 
Colin Colenso said:
Calls for more equality are a toxic side effect of the absurdly ridiculous movement of Egalitarianism.

In what business does one offer equal access to those of various abilities and value. Pro-sports are full of appearance monies, invitationals, qualification rounds and other such non-egalitarian factors.

The myth of perfect competition left us with the absurd and harmful anti-trust regulations, that extended from the concept that charging too low was 'undercutting or dumping', charging more became 'price gouging' and charging the same became 'collusion or price fixing'.

So, I quite like the format and think it will achieve its major goals of 1. Increasing interest / excitement. 2. Increase ratings and 3. Instill some goodwill among the industry by honoring its former greats.
Click to expand...

Very well stated Colin, I can't add anything to that without sounding an inelegant buffoon. :);)
 
Also, when are these pool players going to have another chance to actually play these legends? And what a treat for the rest of us being able to watch all these HOFers in action in one venue?

Besides the fact that these players have put in their time, spent their lives on this game, and someone finally recognises that effort and is rewarding them... what does it matter to the naysayers? It's coming out of Kevin Trudeau's own pocket! So even if you do "disagree" with it, why make an issue out of it?
 
rackmsuckr said:
Very well stated, Deno. These guys (and gals) have paid their dues and deserve the homage. No one before KT has ever even considered doing anything for them collectively.

'An industry that has notoriously underpaid the players'? I would like all those that are bad-mouthing the IPT to consider where these jokes came from:

Q: What do you call a pool player without a wife or a girlfriend?

A: Homeless.

Q: What's the difference between a pool player and a large Domino's pizza?

A: The pizza can feed a family of 4.

Look around and see that for the majority of players in the poolroom, that are trying to make a living playing pool, that is the reality!

The IPT is tryng to change that - to give respect back to our players that would be millionaires at the same level in golf, and kick off a new era in pool that perhaps one day - will be a valid career choice with scholarships in college, that we can be proud that our children followed in our footsteps, that we can all look anyone in the eye and be proud to say, "I am a pool player and so are my kids!"
Click to expand...

I think seeding tournaments is a good idea. The PGA tour does this as well with "the masses" having a chance to get in via a Monday Qualifier. In Q-School and US Open Qualifying, players are exempted from the early rounds based on their current status. What we see on TV is essentially the end of the seeding, the top players after the cut.

Those jokes have also evolved around photographers, writers and artists...basically everything that is fun :)

Cheers,
RC
 
rackmsuckr said:
Very well stated, Deno. These guys (and gals) have paid their dues and deserve the homage. No one before KT has ever even considered doing anything for them collectively.

'An industry that has notoriously underpaid the players'? I would like all those that are bad-mouthing the IPT to consider where these jokes came from:

Q: What do you call a pool player without a wife or a girlfriend?

A: Homeless.

Q: What's the difference between a pool player and a large Domino's pizza?

A: The pizza can feed a family of 4.

Look around and see that for the majority of players in the poolroom, that are trying to make a living playing pool, that is the reality!

The IPT is tryng to change that - to give respect back to our players that would be millionaires at the same level in golf, and kick off a new era in pool that perhaps one day - will be a valid career choice with scholarships in college, that we can be proud that our children followed in our footsteps, that we can all look anyone in the eye and be proud to say, "I am a pool player and so are my kids!"
Click to expand...


This is so true that it's sad...When you can win a tournament and feel good that there's 5 digits in the check....barely....:(
________
 
Last edited:
HOFer's

Sweet Marissa said:
These HOFers have devoted so much of their time and life to the sport and it's about time that has been recognised! I think it's great!
Click to expand...



Life ain't always fair. Just take a good look at some of the names and then ask David Matlock how he feels about the whole thing. That includes big table,snooker table, billiard table, or bar table.
I don't think he hsares your enthusuasim.
 
Deno J. Andrews said:
I really wish that everyone would remember that this is an "invitational" event. Kevin Trudeau is giving away one million dollars of his own money to 43 players who are not paying an entry fee. He happens to hold the Hall of Fame players in high regard for their accomplishments in the industry and he has every right to pay them what he likes. It is true that many of the players who will be eliminated before the Hall of Fame round might play better than some of the Hall of Fame members currently...you cannot deny that each Hall of Fame member has paid his or her dues in the sport for decades. Also, this tournament is not a democracy or the result of endless subcommittee meetings on the format. It is the result of a guy who is giving 43 players a million dollards and doing it in the manner of his choice, and his team of people who recognize that this is something new and different. Please enjoy the Hall of Famer placement as what it is...a gesture to the Hall of Famers that hey...someone thinks you have brought value and meaning to an industry that has notoriously underpaid the players.

Finally, I don't hear any players who are in the tournament complaining about the Hall of Famers. In fact, every player I have spoken to thought it was a great gesture on Kevin's part.

Deno Andrews
Click to expand...



Well of course they aren't complaining. They weren'y snubbed!
I feel badly for a couple of guys, but KT is in a position where he can't please everyone.
 
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