Ruling Question - Ball Falls Late?

[Gus]

This situation happened in a tournement a few weeks ago, and had a lot of opinions on what to rule. No referee was present.

Player A shoots the 3 ball and hangs it in the corner. The cue ball is now 3/4 table away with a ball blocking a direct shot.

After about 30 seconds, Player B steps to the table, and shoots a masse around the blocker ball towards the 3-ball. As the cue ball is halfway to the 3ball, the 3 ball falls in the pocket, the cue ball rattles the same pocket, and comes out, disturbing the position of another ball on the table.

What's the ruling?
A. Player B keeps shooting
B. Player A gets ball in hand because Player A didn't hit the object ball
C. 3 ball and cue ball get respotted, and Player B trys again
D. Re-Rack
E. Your solution?

 

[FLICKit]

What's the ruling?
A. Player B keeps shooting
B. Player A gets ball in hand because Player A didn't hit the object ball
C. 3 ball and cue ball get respotted, and Player B trys again
D. Re-Rack
E. Your solution?

Option C. 3 ball and cue ball get respotted, and Player B trys again

 

[steev]

...shall be put back where they were, as best you can.

paraphrasing the rules, but I agree with FLICKit. I think the other disturbed ball needs to be re-placed as well.

-s

 

[Irish634]

Well.... here is the rule that addresses that:

3.31 BALLS MOVING SPONTANEOUSLY
If a ball shifts, settles, turns or otherwise moves “by itself,” the ball shall remain in the position it assumed and play continues. A hanging ball that falls into a pocket “by itself” after being motionless for 5 seconds or longer shall be replaced as closely as possible to its position prior to falling, and play shall continue. If an object ball drops into a pocket “by itself” as a player shoots at it, so that the cue ball passes over the spot the ball had been on, unable to hit it, the cue ball and object ball are to be replaced to their positions prior to the stroke, and the player may shoot again. Any other object balls disturbed on the stroke are also to be replaced to their original positions before the shooter replays.

So, according to this, I would say C with the disturbed balls being replaced to their original position.

Hope this helps
Craig

<<<Edit: Damn I type slow, I was beaten to the punch LOL >>>

 

[georgeh]

"c"

Gh

 

[cigardave]

This situation happened in a tournement a few weeks ago, and had a lot of opinions on what to rule. No referee was present.

Player A shoots the 3 ball and hangs it in the corner. The cue ball is now 3/4 table away with a ball blocking a direct shot.

After about 30 seconds, Player B steps to the table, and shoots a masse around the blocker ball towards the 3-ball. As the cue ball is halfway to the 3ball, the 3 ball falls in the pocket, the cue ball rattles the same pocket, and comes out, disturbing the position of another ball on the table.

What's the ruling?
A. Player B keeps shooting
B. Player A gets ball in hand because Player A didn't hit the object ball
C. 3 ball and cue ball get respotted, and Player B trys again
D. Re-Rack
E. Your solution?

E.... my solution... per BCA Rules ( and I know that some here don't have much regard for them... but nontheless)... the 3-ball falling without any ball contact as described above is an act of God type of occurrence... and should be re-spotted as close as possible to its original position... and so should the cue ball and the other ball that was disturbed during the shot. With the balls back in place as they were before the shot, it is now Player B's turn again. In essense, my solution is the same as "C"... except I believe that the other "disturbed" ball should be re-spotted to its former position as well.

 

[aeoliner]

This situation happened in a tournement a few weeks ago, and had a lot of opinions on what to rule. No referee was present.

Player A shoots the 3 ball and hangs it in the corner. The cue ball is now 3/4 table away with a ball blocking a direct shot.

After about 30 seconds, Player B steps to the table, and shoots a masse around the blocker ball towards the 3-ball. As the cue ball is halfway to the 3ball, the 3 ball falls in the pocket, the cue ball rattles the same pocket, and comes out, disturbing the position of another ball on the table.

What's the ruling?
A. Player B keeps shooting
B. Player A gets ball in hand because Player A didn't hit the object ball
C. 3 ball and cue ball get respotted, and Player B trys again
D. Re-Rack
E. Your solution?

Option C. If a ball spontaneously falls into a pocket or spontaneously moves after it has stopped moving for 5 seconds, Said ball is spotted as close to its original spot as possible.

 

[tsp&b]

Wrong!

E.... my solution... per BCA Rules ( and I know that some here don't have much regard for them... but nontheless)... the 3-ball falling without any ball contact as described above is an act of God type of occurrence... and should be re-spotted as close as possible to its original position... and so should the cue ball and the other ball that was disturbed during the shot. With the balls back in place as they were before the shot, it is now Player B's turn again. In essense, my solution is the same as "C"... except I believe that the other "disturbed" ball should be re-spotted to its former position as well.

Wrong! Reason.... Right Outcome! imho

 

[Irish634]

Ok.. now that most everyone agrees on the ruling, I'll toss a monkey wrench into the mix....

Same scenario as Gus points out..except that you are on a coin-op with no way to retrieve the 3 (without adding more $$$ of course). How would everyone rule on that?

Just curious...

 

[steev]

add more money, irish. or you could be like some folks i know and have a key i'm sure they only use it when it's a situation like this, of course...

-s

 

[Bob Jewett]

Ok.. now that most everyone agrees on the ruling, I'll toss a monkey wrench into the mix....

Same scenario as Gus points out..except that you are on a coin-op with no way to retrieve the 3 (without adding more $$$ of course). How would everyone rule on that?

Just curious...

The players were playing nine ball, almost certainly from the description. Put the 11 ball where the 3 ball was and continue. The last time I saw nine ball on a coin-op, it was standard to form a new rack from the remaining balls if the rack ended early. I think they may even have played some racks of six ball. The players seemed to have no trouble keeping track of ball order, even when the 13 was the money ball.

 

[Maniac]

Ok.. now that most everyone agrees on the ruling, I'll toss a monkey wrench into the mix....

If we're gonna play the "what if" game, then how about this scenario: Let's say this happened on a sharp cut shot and the cueball was hit off of the corner rails hard enough to disturb about 6 or 7 (possibly even more) balls. Do you try to replace all the balls back to as near the original position as you can? If so, IMO this severely compromises the tables layout and could penalize one of the two players. Of course, what else are ya gonna do ???

Maniac

 

[Bob Jewett]

... hard enough to disturb about 6 or 7 (possibly even more) balls. ...

The usual solution for when a position can't be restored is to replay the rack.

The most exciting example of this I've seen was at the 1976 World 14.1 Championships in Asbury Park, New Jersey, where on the opening night Hurricane Belle passed just off-shore from the beach-side auditorium. At one corner of the arena, the exit doors blew open and rain came in horizontally. All the balls were blown to the head of the table -- maybe 8 or 10 balls. In that particular case, the player had been studying the position for a safety, so he restored the position and played the safe.

In the case of 14.1, "replaying the rack" is a little bit of a problem, since the racks are not really separate.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

You know, as much as I love answering these questions, I do have to say, this is the world wide web. If you know of azbilliards.com then you must have heard of www.bca-pool.com. I mean, as stated earlier, this scenario is specifically addressed in the rule book.

In my humble opinion, knowing the rules on a practical level is important if you intend to be a competitive pool player. 99% of the matches you play are going to be ref'd by you and your opponent and you want to have this information readily available.

A perfect example - A few weeks ago, I was playing in a tournament where I was asked to make a ruling. A player trying to bridge for a masse shot used a cube of chalk to brace with. I immediate said, "He can't do that. Look up Improper Use of Equipment. However, I'm also not certain it's a foul. If he's done it already, you may only have the right to say he can't do it again but check." Here are the exact rules:

1.3 USE OF EQUIPMENT
Players may not use equipment or accessory items for purposes or in a manner other than those for which the items were intended (refer to rules 3.42 and 3.43). For example, powder containers, chalk cubes, etc., may not be used to prop up a mechanical bridge (or natural hand bridge); no more than two mechanical bridges may be used at one time, nor may they be used to support anything other than the cue shaft. Extra or out-of-play balls may not be used by players to check clearance or for any other reason (except to lag for break); the triangle may be employed to ascertain whether a ball is in the rack when a match is unofficiated and the table has not been pencil marked around the triangle area. (Also see Rule 2.3)

2.15 INAPPROPRIATE USE OF EQUIPMENT
The referee should be alert for a player using equipment or accessory items for purposes or in a manner other than those for which they were intended, or for the use of illegal equipment, as defined under “equipment specification”. Generally no penalty is applied. However, should a player persist in such activity or use of such equipment, after having been advised that such activity or use is not permissible, the referee or other tournament official may take action as appropriate under the provisions of “Unsportsmanlike Conduct” (Also see Rule 1.3 and Rule 1.4)


Now, I'm not a referee but I found it in my interest to take the time to read the book. It's only $5 or so in your local room and it's FREE online. Take the time and read it. You're guaranteed to improve your winning percentage which is more then some instructors can claim.

 

[Irish634]

The players were playing nine ball, almost certainly from the description. Put the 11 ball where the 3 ball was and continue. The last time I saw nine ball on a coin-op, it was standard to form a new rack from the remaining balls if the rack ended early. I think they may even have played some racks of six ball. The players seemed to have no trouble keeping track of ball order, even when the 13 was the money ball.

I had forgotten about using the opposite stripe, and even done it on occasion.

add more money, irish. or you could be like some folks i know and have a key i'm sure they only use it when it's a situation like this, of course...

-s

LOL Yep... have used the key too!

You know, as much as I love answering these questions, I do have to say, this is the world wide web. If you know of azbilliards.com then you must have heard of www.bca-pool.com. I mean, as stated earlier, this scenario is specifically addressed in the rule book.

In my humble opinion, knowing the rules on a practical level is important if you intend to be a competitive pool player. 99% of the matches you play are going to be ref'd by you and your opponent and you want to have this information readily available.

<<<Snipped>>>

Now, I'm not a referee but I found it in my interest to take the time to read the book. It's only $5 or so in your local room and it's FREE online. Take the time and read it. You're guaranteed to improve your winning percentage which is more then some instructors can claim.

This is exactly why I printed the rules out and keep a copy in my case. I don't know them all by heart so I do have to look some up every now and again.

Yes the rules are available online etc, and I also encourage people to read them, but I am sure, most will agree that there are gray areas in wording that people are going to have questions about. No gray area in this question of course.

I guess what I am getting at is: Whether they are clear or in the "gray area", asking questions about the rules is also another way of learning the game. Many times, it opens up interesting discussion as well

Regards,
Craig

 

[Black-Balled]

In you situation, I think the shot should be put back up!

Same thing happened to me playing a well-known dinosaur in a tourney. I shot a ball into the side and caught the point. It went to the corner pocket and hung there, my opponent got up to shoot and was looking at the table- 3to5 sec- and the ball falls. I offer to flip a coin for it, he says he doesn't know the rule, I say I am not going to make the call, offer to flip for it again or consult TD. He goes for TD...Archer, Hall, some other big names are gathered around the TD table and they engage in a Q/A session for about 5min...TD's head pops off and he says...shot counts, keep shooting! (Imagine that! IIRC, I won the game but lost the set

This situation happened in a tournement a few weeks ago, and had a lot of opinions on what to rule. No referee was present.

Player A shoots the 3 ball and hangs it in the corner. The cue ball is now 3/4 table away with a ball blocking a direct shot.

After about 30 seconds, Player B steps to the table, and shoots a masse around the blocker ball towards the 3-ball. As the cue ball is halfway to the 3ball, the 3 ball falls in the pocket, the cue ball rattles the same pocket, and comes out, disturbing the position of another ball on the table.

What's the ruling?
A. Player B keeps shooting
B. Player A gets ball in hand because Player A didn't hit the object ball
C. 3 ball and cue ball get respotted, and Player B trys again
D. Re-Rack
E. Your solution?

 

[Maniac]

The usual solution for when a position can't be restored is to replay the rack.

This in reference of my previous post:

Bob, I'm with you on this ruling, but.....

3.31 BALLS MOVING SPONTANEOUSLY
If a ball shifts, settles, turns or otherwise moves “by itself,” the ball shall remain in the position it assumed and play continues. A hanging ball that falls into a pocket “by itself” after being motionless for 5 seconds or longer shall be replaced as closely as possible to its position prior to falling, and play shall continue. If an object ball drops into a pocket “by itself” as a player shoots at it, so that the cue ball passes over the spot the ball had been on, unable to hit it, the cue ball and object ball are to be replaced to their positions prior to the stroke, and the player may shoot again. Any other object balls disturbed on the stroke are also to be replaced to their original positions before the shooter replays.

.....the World Standardized Rules (from the BCA website) don't address this as so. I would think it would be futile to try and properly replace more than two or three balls without compromising the rack and therefore possibly giving undue advantage to one of the players. IMO, in the aforementioned scenario, I would rather just re-rack and start that particular game over.

Jude, not all rules are worded to where it is a black/white thing. There are some gray areas in almost any set of rules I've ever seen. The reason for this is so the rule book doesn't end up looking like a set of Encyclopedias.
Therefore, questions are always going to arise about what the "meaning" of some rules are. Bob Jewett, whose opinions I highly respect, says in one of his posts above, that when six or seven balls get disturbed you should re-rack. The "rules" do not state this in any detail. So, you can see how some people have the need to ask questions. Just my take on it. Shoot well, my friend!!!

Maniac

 

[Gus]

Thanks for all your input but....

It seems pretty cut & dried what the answer is, that the cue ball, object ball and any disturbed balls get put back in place & the shooter gets another shot.
In the case stated, Player B had to masse around a blocker to even reach the object ball. My question is, do both players have to agree on the placement of the balls, or does the shooter have full control of the placement?
If they don't agree on the original position of the balls, is it an automatic re-rack?
The rules don't seem to cover this situation.

Thanks for your input so far..

Gus

 

[Str8PoolPlayer]

This Just happened last night at League ...

An opposing Team Player shot the 3 Ball toward the corner pocket and it "rattled" a bit then stopped just inside the pocket, but did not fall ... He left the table and our Team Player stepped up to the table to shoot but, before he even touched the table, the 3 Ball fell into the pocket ... The two Team Captains talked it over and decided to let the first Player continue ... His next shot was straight-in on the 8 Ball and he won the game ... Our League Rules do not cover such an event ...

My Question : How would you make the call ... ?

 

[Irish634]

An opposing Team Player shot the 3 Ball toward the corner pocket and it "rattled" a bit then stopped just inside the pocket, but did not fall ... He left the table and our Team Player stepped up to the table to shoot but, before he even touched the table, the 3 Ball fell into the pocket ... The two Team Captains talked it over and decided to let the first Player continue ... His next shot was straight-in on the 8 Ball and he won the game ... Our League Rules do not cover such an event ...

My Question : How would you make the call ... ?

Well.. this part of the rule addresses that:

A hanging ball that falls into a pocket “by itself” after being motionless for 5 seconds or longer shall be replaced as closely as possible to its position prior to falling, and play shall continue.

I am assuming more than 5 seconds elapsed between the time the 1st player rattled the 3, left the table, and the 2nd player got up to shoot. So, playing strictly by the rules, the ball is replaced and it's the 2nd player's shot.

If your league rules cite the world standardized rules, then it is covered. One of the leagues I play in has it's own rules voted on by the league committee, but also has a "disclaimer" that states: "Unless specifically addressed in this document, the world standardized rules shall apply to league play."

However, if I am playing my fiance or just goofing around, I might be inclined to count it as a good shot and let the first player keep shooting.

Craig