Run This (13)
- Thread starter CueAndMe
- Start date
Intresting layout 5 possible breakballs and no real key ball. I prefer it this way but some people would not like the side pocket shot on the 12. I want to see Blackjacks approach to this one.
http://CueTable.com/P/?@4DAFd4LFiK3...Ddnq1LefC3MNql3NcYw3OcYv3PNXH3kNXH3kMkT3kFRm@
http://CueTable.com/P/?@4DAFd4LFiK3...Ddnq1LefC3MNql3NcYw3OcYv3PNXH3kNXH3kMkT3kFRm@
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Haven't played any real straight pool in YEARS, but I'll take a stab.
The immediate pattern that comes to mind is: 15 corner, 13 same pocket,
14 same pocket.. roll down for the 4 in the opposite (lower left) corner, giving one rail position for the 12 break ball also into the lower left corner.
Tell me how much I've forgotten.
Jim
The immediate pattern that comes to mind is: 15 corner, 13 same pocket,
14 same pocket.. roll down for the 4 in the opposite (lower left) corner, giving one rail position for the 12 break ball also into the lower left corner.
Tell me how much I've forgotten.
Jim
dave sutton
Banned
12,4,15,14, 13 is the break
12(bottom left corn)- 4(top left corn) - 13( same as 4)- 14(same as 4)- 15 break ball.
Follow the 12 a little less than a diamond straight forward, draw the 4 ball off the foot rail [2 rail to center of table], center ball the 13 -> play off rail, 14, play off rail (or draw if you are skilled AKA better than me!), positioned for 15 as the break.
Toughest shot IMO is getting from the 4 to 13.
Follow the 12 a little less than a diamond straight forward, draw the 4 ball off the foot rail [2 rail to center of table], center ball the 13 -> play off rail, 14, play off rail (or draw if you are skilled AKA better than me!), positioned for 15 as the break.
Toughest shot IMO is getting from the 4 to 13.
dave sutton said:
Nice Dave. I like the predictability of this. Here's a visual of it.
Marop said:
Interesting layout - from the starting point it looks as if we got lost along the way, but I guess we'll deal with it...
Shot 1 - 12 in the corner, snip draw over for the 15
Shot 2 - 15 corner - follow for an angle on the 4
Shot 3 - 4 in the corner, come 1 rail back to get the desired angle on the 14 - now the diagram shows me coming close to the 13 - well that;s what happens when you go through 10 other balls and leave this crap for your end sequence...
- I could come straight off of that rail - but it's late - I'm tired - and let's say I got on the 14. 
Shot 4 - 14 corner, draw back slightly for the break shot on the 13
Shot 5 - 13 corner - contact new stack
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Blackjack said:
Is this really that awful? I'm not a high runner like you, but this seems like cake compared to some layouts. You have choices out the ears for break balls.
So you've got me curious. Just to pick your brain, if you had 6 balls to place perfectly at the end of a rack, could you show us where you'd like them, and then could you run them out for us on the cuetable. I think this would be a good exercise.
Thanks
Marop said:
Absolutely "no" cueball movement. A perfect finish of a rack. Thanks Marop
bluepepper said:
It's not that it is aweful, it's just not a situation that I want to face in my end sequence. Compare your layout to the one that Bill provided. Notice how Bill has "cleared out" the area around his break ball - and any movement that he performs with his cue ball will not interfere with his break ball. It's all stop shots - from the first ball to the break ball. In 14.1, that is exactly what you want to have.
In the layout you provided -(and I am talking about my solution) I get trapped into having to move the cue ball more than I want (going from the 4 to the 14). of course there are other end patterns and probably better solutions than mine, but no matter which way I go I am having to move my cue ball more than I really want to. In your layout, UNLESS I choose the 4 ball as my break ball (and I didn't want to) then I am moving my cue ball around the desired break ball (13 or 15) and I come into danger of maybe moving it inadvertantly.
In reality, if I had the 15 and 13 sitting where they are - I would have cleared that area out long before I came into the last 5-6 balls. I'm sure many other players with extensive 14.1 experience would tell you the same thing.
Also, as far as what I said about " getting lost along the way" - in your layout - that starting position says it all. If I am shooting - I should not have ended up in that position to set up on any of those balls - plus if I want to use the 13, 14, or 15 as a break ball - I really have no great looking key ball.
To me, the 4 is a good break ball, but why is it still there when I have the 13, 14, and 15? To me, it's a problem ball in this pattern, and a ball that (to be pocketed) requires multi-rail position to get on any other ball - unless I choose to shoot something down-table, and why put myself in that situation when the balls are close the pockets up here?
If you look at Bill's layout - you don't see any problems like that, which means that along the way, this player made some good choices and cleared the balls with a definite end pattern in mind. Also, look at the diagram below - I show the triangle that is formed by Bill's break ball, key ball, and set up ball. I always look for that type of pattern when playing my end pattern.
(sorry for the typo in the diagram, but that's the best you'll get from me at 7AM on a Sunday morning)
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Blackjack, I see what you're saying, but look at the solution that Dave came up with that I created a sequence for. No problems whatsoever. It's a picture of simplicity. And I took the one railer on the 4 just to be sure not to cross its angle off of the 12. But it's probably not even necessary. Here it is with a straight in leave which most of us are capable of off of the 12.
I never saw the triangle mentioned. But that triangle, from what I gather, comes in many different shapes. I can picture finding a break ball, then a key ball to get on that break ball, then some easy way to get on that key ball, hopefully a stop shot, but that thought process automatically creates a triangle. And that triangle can look so different each time that I wonder if it is even worth looking for. Triangles can be created all over the pool table which would be of no use.
The 4 ball below the rack... Are you saying that by the time you have 5 balls left in a rack, that you will have tried to clear all balls below the rack?
Thanks
I never saw the triangle mentioned. But that triangle, from what I gather, comes in many different shapes. I can picture finding a break ball, then a key ball to get on that break ball, then some easy way to get on that key ball, hopefully a stop shot, but that thought process automatically creates a triangle. And that triangle can look so different each time that I wonder if it is even worth looking for. Triangles can be created all over the pool table which would be of no use.
The 4 ball below the rack... Are you saying that by the time you have 5 balls left in a rack, that you will have tried to clear all balls below the rack?
Thanks
bluepepper said:
Obviously you are not getting what it is that I am trying to say - or I am not explaining it well - my preference is my preference - and we can argue that all day and I'm not going to change my mind unless your name screen name is "ghostball". lol
Seriously, my preference is not what I am selling - what I'm trying to explain is that in your diagram, some of those balls should have been gone a long time ago. Some of them serve no purpose, they are just in the way. When the clearing the table you always have to evaluate which balls have and do not have a purpose in your strategy. I don't want to be that far into the layout with stuff I don't need. It's great to have a few break ball options, but to go that far into the rack without choosing a definite break ball, not my style - and I wouldn't teach or preach that to anybody.
To me, the triangle is very useful... of course you can make triangles all over the table with anything that you want, but we're looking for simple shots to get you to the break ball. We start at the break ball and work our way backwards through the rack. This is only one method - it is not something you can do all of the time, it is just a little tidbit that was shown to me a long time ago.
Let's look back to Marop's layout - which is a great final layout to get to the break ball. With the exception of the break ball (3) all of the other balls can be used as a set up shot to get on the key ball. In this situation, I'd rather have more of those than anything else.
We have the 3 as a break ball, and the 9 as the Key ball... draw a line from the break ball (3) to the key ball (9)...
Now we have to look for a set up shot.
Is there a ball on the table, that if used as the cue ball can pocket the 9 ball with a stop shot?
We have the 6 ball. Draw a line from the key ball to the 6 ball. Look at the diagram.
If I do this early in the rack, and form that triangle, I know that every ball that lays within that triangle needs to be removed. I need those lines to visualize where I need to get to, and what needs to be cleared out - so I can get where I need to.
In Marop's layout, this works very well.
Here is a similar layout to Marop's - only we have a few different options...
I use the same method, only I have an extra line this time...
Look at the 10 and the 7 - both are easy to choose as a set up shot for our key ball - however, position on one of those balls is a gimme - and the other we have the danger of going too far... I'd go 7-10-9-3
Only because I know that if I put the 10 up in that corner, I WILL get a stop shot on the 9 ball - if I use the 7, the cue ball could drift - I know that - its happened to me a million times - and I know its happened to a lot of other players a million times - then again, this is only what I prefer.
Others may see something different - but this is workable... notice my shot from the 6 to the 7 ... the 6 is similar to the 4 ball in your layout - only I pocket the 6 and come for position for two balls, not just 1...
Back to your layout...
The point of my post, was to let you know that if I was picking apart that table, I would not have those balls (13,14,15) remaining on the table for my end sequence. Some of them are just in the way.
All of those break balls and key balls will do you no good if you don't have a good set up shot to get you where you need to get. Just because you have the break balls and key balls means nothing if you don't have a good, simple pattern to smoothly and easily get you on the break ball and into your next rack of balls.
Long runs require a lot of mental energy. That is why the best players do the simplest things - they conserve that mental energy. That is why your layout is dangerous. In John Schmidt's 245, there were problems in the end pattern of his last rack, that ultimately led to his downfall on ball 246. At DCC a few years back - John shot a 112 - and missed a break shot because the balls didn't open for him very well - and he ultimately got left with a break ball that he had to do too much with.
It's the same thing with your layout.
Plain and simple - 9 ball style position will not get you anywhere in 14.1. Too much cue ball movement will force you out of position. If you're off on position by an inch to the left or right on a side pocket key ball, it can make all the difference between utilizing a stop shot, or having to go 1,2, or 3 rails to get on the break ball.
I know this is a long post - but I hope the info helps you understand that I am not being a dickhead, its just that I was shown how to play this game a certain way.
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Thank god I can make balls..
bluepepper said:
Jeff:
There's one thing I'm not crazy about in your sequence from the 4 to the 15.
To get where you indicate, you have to hit a stop shot with just about a half ball of forward roll. If you hit a stop shot by accident, or maybe even back the cue ball up a hair, you're screwed (position A). You can't make the 15 in the side without either hitting the 13 or getting too sharp on the 14. If you roll forward just a little to B, you're in trouble again because now you are making a much more difficult side pocket shot than you should have to with this layout.
I prefer this sequence, which I think leaves much more room for error.:
Page 2 shows the margin of error. In the worst case if you end up at A, you can still go 2 rails to anywhere in the center of the table, and still have a good shot on the 14. In fact, if you really butcher the shot on the 4 and can't get good on the 15, you could even shoot the 14 and come out for another try on the 15.
In your 4 ball stop shot, I've gotten on the wrong side of that shot so many times. I'll avoid it if there is another option that is just as easy to execute, and gives more room for error.