S.A.M. Anyone use it? Does it really work?

[Koop]

But so far as I know, SAM is not one of Hal's systems. Does he say that it is? In any case, I believe that Hal's 70 years of experience has a lot more to do with him pocketing a lot of balls than the many systems he has. And frankly, I don't believe no ball missed in 13 hours. I just don't believe it. Must be a case of mesmerization.

I'll say it again, NO it is not but it IS taken from Hal's systems, which Randy has already attested to.

I also don't care what you do or don't believe. I was there, I saw it and don't need someone who wasn't there to tell me what I did or didn't see. No mesmerization Bob and don't be so presumptuous as to tell me what I saw with my own eyes.

Tell you what, Bob, why don't you ask Hal why it is? What do you think his answer will be? 70 years of playing or using his aiming system? I'll save you the money on the phone call, it's the aiming system.

And to the point of not believing, well I don't believe you EVER spoke with Hal about his systems other than to say you weren't interested. I just don't believe it.

 

[randyg]

Name some pros that you have taught. And I meant you guys need the 7ball in knowledge of the game from Bob Jewett. It was a retort for you telling him to "come to school" or something like that (which was an insult IMO). And Bob plays STRONG. I wouldn't be surprised if you really did need the 7!

I have no need to name the pro's who have attended CUE-TECH, they can speak for themselves.

Bob Jewett is a good friend on mine. Re-read what I wrote and I said that maybe I would attend his school. Plan on it anyway, I learn from everyone. All BCA Instructors must attend some other BCA Instructors Schools.

Bob is a good Instructor whom I respect, but I will match my knowledge of teaching the game with any living human being.

As far as Bob playing "strong", I know that personally. Just because you didn't say what you meant to say is your mistake, not mine. Retort or not. I'm still waiting for the cash, I'll take the 7 if your backing Bob.

Once again "They don't know, what they don't know!"...thanks OZ


Good luck cuetechasaurus, talk later.....SPF=randyg

 

[pooltchr]

I might have a solution to get this all resolved.
Bob seems to want to see SAM detailed on this forum.
Randy offered to teach SAM to Bob.
Bob could take Randy up on his offer, and then post everything he learns about it right here.
The only problem is that, as Scott pointed out, it would be very difficult to communicate SAM strictly with the printed word. I wouldn't even attempt it. It's something that really needs to be learned at the table. But Bob is pretty good with words...he just might be the person to do it.
Steve

 

[RiverCity]

Read my words:
................
S.A.M works if you want it to.
S.A.M doesn't work if you don't want it to.
S.A.M. is not a secret, but a method to improve a students winning statistics.

Yes, I studied from Hal Houle and S.A.M is part of what Hal taught me.

And there is no aiming system that can ever replace a poor stroke.....SPF=randyg

For me, the whole issue with this discussion.... is guarding (for monetary gain) information that you yourself state is "no secret". If you get right down to it, all the information required to play pool well is out in the open already. Some people need guidance and coaching to sort out and apply that information, and that IMO is where instructors are beneficial.

This is a HUGE issue of what is wrong with pool today, and part of why there is no professional mens tour. Alot of folks are only interested in "what is in it for them". And before you slap that reply button for that statement, hear me out. I do not know you personally, and am not making that statement in your direction..... directly.
The IPT had everybody standing around with their hands out, despite a ton of warnings of what was to come. Well if the main concern was the future of the sport, and not the "get it while you can" attitude as far as their bank accounts were concerned........ the situation wouldnt taste so damn bitter.
This game is full of greedy people. Always has been, and unfortunately always might be..... unless people make a determined effort to make it better. To put focus on the game, not prize money.... not what Tiger Woods makes in a year compared to them. Its the same on the industry side...... very seldom do you see a manufacturer etc giving to the game WITHOUT any expected return for their "charity". Its a sad situation when the BCA itself has split into two different factions, one the league/players side of it and the other a business money making side..... and the money making end of it is where the main concentrated efforts are focused.
There is not enough giving back these days.... everybody expects something in return. And that is just damn sad.
Chuck

 

[Dawgie]

Please explain the SAM sys. Most instructors will share info. on this and other forums like EPT. Explaining the sys. could create a lot more interest, that is if you are worried about explaining the sys.

 

[thrasher789]

Much more importantly than the 'monetary' aspect of detailing the system is the fact that with any aiming system it is very difficult to accurately put it into words to be expressed well over a forum, I've already said it but quarters is about the only system you could verbally explain well and even that one is somewhat difficult to understand by simply reading it.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... with any aiming system it is very difficult to accurately put it into words to be expressed well over a forum, I've already said it but quarters is about the only system you could verbally explain well and even that one is somewhat difficult to understand by simply reading it.

I'm curious. Have you read any of my Billiards Digest columns that explain aiming systems? Are they all incomprehensible? I've covered perhaps a dozen or two of them. Maybe I was just wasting my time. Have you read Randy Kukla's book (which is pretty short and covers 8 or 10 systems)? http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html

I think technical writing is difficult, and it's hard to get both correct and clear on the first try. On the other hand, I'd say if someone can't explain a subject in writing, then they probably don't really understand the subject.

The ghost ball method is hard to describe so badly that someone couldn't understand it.

 

[Cuebacca]

Thanks CUEBACCA. I just posted those answers. By the way, I think most all pro's have a system, I'm not sure they could explain it though. After a while S.A.M. is just a feel, point and shoot. Also, I can email you quite a few "A" player who use this thing we call S.A.M.....Good luck,....randyg

Thanks, Randy. If they aren't pro's, I probably wouldn't recognize their names, unless they are post here.

I'm looking forward to checking out the workshops at the BCA Nationals. Will they include anything on the S.A.M.?

 

[Scott Lee]

For me, the whole issue with this discussion.... is guarding (for monetary gain) information that you yourself state is "no secret". If you get right down to it, all the information required to play pool well is out in the open already. Some people need guidance and coaching to sort out and apply that information, and that IMO is where instructors are beneficial.

This is a HUGE issue of what is wrong with pool today, and part of why there is no professional mens tour. Alot of folks are only interested in "what is in it for them". And before you slap that reply button for that statement, hear me out. I do not know you personally, and am not making that statement in your direction..... directly.
The IPT had everybody standing around with their hands out, despite a ton of warnings of what was to come. Well if the main concern was the future of the sport, and not the "get it while you can" attitude as far as their bank accounts were concerned........ the situation wouldnt taste so damn bitter.
This game is full of greedy people. Always has been, and unfortunately always might be..... unless people make a determined effort to make it better. To put focus on the game, not prize money.... not what Tiger Woods makes in a year compared to them. Its the same on the industry side...... very seldom do you see a manufacturer etc giving to the game WITHOUT any expected return for their "charity". Its a sad situation when the BCA itself has split into two different factions, one the league/players side of it and the other a business money making side..... and the money making end of it is where the main concentrated efforts are focused.
There is not enough giving back these days.... everybody expects something in return. And that is just damn sad.
Chuck

Chuck...You are completely out of line with the tone of this post. Do a search. I myself have explained the concepts behind SAM more than once right here on this forum...FOR FREE. It is not secret information, and it's available to anyone who wants to learn it. If you desire to learn a particular skill, and there is a school or place where you can attend and learn this, that is your choice. It is not about the money. Randy has far more students than he can teach in a given year. I also am extremely busy, teaching up to a couple of hundred private students a year myself, on top of teaching with the Cue Tech schools. Many times, both Randy and I have given people free lessons, who could not otherwise afford them. That said, our JOB is teaching others. The fact that the majority of those people who search us out pay us for this service is just normal business practice...and does not make us "greedy". Nobody seems to complain who pays us to learn how to stroke the CB better (in fact they compliment us in droves), so why is it such a big deal to you?

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[ShootingArts]

Thanks Bob!

Thanks Bob! I just bookmarked the link myself. I see that I am behind on my reading.

Technical writing is indeed extremely difficult because it has to be understood in exactly the same way by everyone reading it and using it to be truly good technical writing. If it is possible to read what is actually there and misunderstand it, then the information is poorly written. Pronouns go out the window for the most part. I have worn many hats over the years including those of technical writer, editor, and illustrator. I no longer have the command of software to be an illustrator and I doubt I have the patience or clarity of mind to write or edit.

Thanks again for all of the articles you have produced and for posting the link.

Hu

I'm curious. Have you read any of my Billiards Digest columns that explain aiming systems? Are they all incomprehensible? I've covered perhaps a dozen or two of them. Maybe I was just wasting my time. Have you read Randy Kukla's book (which is pretty short and covers 8 or 10 systems)? http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html

I think technical writing is difficult, and it's hard to get both correct and clear on the first try. On the other hand, I'd say if someone can't explain a subject in writing, then they probably don't really understand the subject.

The ghost ball method is hard to describe so badly that someone couldn't understand it.

 

[thrasher789]

I'm curious. Have you read any of my Billiards Digest columns that explain aiming systems? Are they all incomprehensible? I've covered perhaps a dozen or two of them. Maybe I was just wasting my time. Have you read Randy Kukla's book (which is pretty short and covers 8 or 10 systems)? http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html

I think technical writing is difficult, and it's hard to get both correct and clear on the first try. On the other hand, I'd say if someone can't explain a subject in writing, then they probably don't really understand the subject.

The ghost ball method is hard to describe so badly that someone couldn't understand it.

No I have not, I'll look into those; at least agree it is far easier for someone to clearly understand the concept if you are there in person showing examples and the like? Talk to Houle or Simpson about the holy grail system and I can guarentee that both would say it's very difficult to understand from writing. I have notes on how to do it but without actually seeing it in person it would be very difficult to do it and I would quickly throw it to the wind convinced it didn't actually work.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... at least agree it is far easier for someone to clearly understand the concept if you are there in person showing examples and the like? ...

Exactly. And that's why pool instructors are unlikely to go out of business. Pretty much all of the stuff we've been discussing has been in print for quite a while, but people can't or won't read. If I had to guess, I'd say that less than 10% of all people can learn pool effectively just from reading and watching other players. One problem they face is that much of what has been written is wrong or even self-contradictory, and they have to separate wheat from chaff. That's brutal hard.

Another major problem, perhaps the largest problem, is that the struggling player can't diagnose his own faults. Recently there was someone here who was complaining about not being able to draw or follow his ball -- all power shots ended up stop shots. He has struggled with this for a while. It's probably a simple thing to fix in person but not by exchanging messages here. Modern technology has provided video cameras, but it takes a little experience to pick faults off of the TV screen.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Pretty much all of the stuff we've been discussing has been in print for quite a while, but people can't or won't read. ...

As an extreme example, did you know that squirt, swerve and a pivot point (for BHE or "aim and pivot") were all illustrated in a billiard book in 1839? Some people still don't believe in squirt. (It was named squirt in 1978.)

 

[5ballcharlie]

There is no system that works for all shots on all tables.

I believe joe tuckers system will work for all shots. Its perfect, but on the other hand if you had a good stroke that was 100 percent flaw proof then even the ghost ball would probably work every time.

 

[TheConArtist]

i forgot why i joined this forum it was because of thread dealing with aiming, its the only threads that get my hundred percent interest idk why. I can recall searching through all 15+ pages of aiming systems a long time ago and no one really every tried to explain there systems. Which is why i give alot of credit to Hal, Koop, Dm, Fred and Colin as they were the ones who really informative on them for me personally. I was taught the SAM system over the forum but didn't really like it, as for all of Hals systems which have worked for me, they were hard to understand or imagine but put to work on the table you can see and understand why they work. I use to swear by the Pivot system of Hals but not these days, i have worked with using the Small Ball relationship with my own little adjustment of seeing the cueball as a double vision. And the Center 2 Edge but no more pivoting the cue. My only advice to one is to learn to aim with center cueball. Which is basically simple for three of the main shots, straight in, 3/4 and 1/2 ball hit. Personally using BHE if english is needed. For the 1/4 and very thin cuts this is where i aim the contact point on the cueball to the objectball as i don't like to imagine a spot to the left or right of the edge for my aim point. From my understanding this is SAM. But this is dealing with six angles when i can just use 2 angles on all and each shot by using Hals Systems. Center objectball and Edge.

 

[RiverCity]

Chuck...You are completely out of line with the tone of this post. Do a search. I myself have explained the concepts behind SAM more than once right here on this forum...FOR FREE. It is not secret information, and it's available to anyone who wants to learn it. If you desire to learn a particular skill, and there is a school or place where you can attend and learn this, that is your choice. It is not about the money. Randy has far more students than he can teach in a given year. I also am extremely busy, teaching up to a couple of hundred private students a year myself, on top of teaching with the Cue Tech schools. Many times, both Randy and I have given people free lessons, who could not otherwise afford them. That said, our JOB is teaching others. The fact that the majority of those people who search us out pay us for this service is just normal business practice...and does not make us "greedy". Nobody seems to complain who pays us to learn how to stroke the CB better (in fact they compliment us in droves), so why is it such a big deal to you?

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

How was that out of line, because you have taken offense to it?
As I said earlier, nothing was directed at anyone in particular, just that it is an issue. It wasnt even directly aimed at the topic of SAM.
If you choose to turn a blind eye to the history of this game, meaning the greed involved. That is your business. I for one am tired of people milking the cow dry, and then complaining theres no more milk. I said the game is full of greedy people, and feel that is a true statement.
Greed has been the downfall of most of the mens professional organizations. Greed has been a large contributing factor in the publics image of hustlers and con men. Greed was what kept tips and "secret information" hidden for many years from new players..... So yes, the game has its share of greedy people.

Some people need guidance and coaching to sort out and apply that information, and that IMO is where instructors are beneficial.

Again, what I said about instuctors was not about being greedy money wise. It was about being greedy with information. Professional instruction is a needed learning tool, and you deserve to be paid for it. However, saying you have a holy grail of aiming system information..... but you have to take my class to learn it........ is not in the spirit of sharing information or growing the game.
If we want this game to grow...... first thing that needs to go is the greed. Second..... the egos.

so why is it such a big deal to you?

Because I love the game, I love the sounds of the game, I love the feeling of the game.......... it means something to me.
Chuck

 

[catscradle]

I've had SAM explained to me at Randy's pool school and by Scott Lee in a private lesson. Scott and Randy both emphasize it is a Supplemental Aiming System. They both use it exclusively I believe, but themselves say it is not for everybody. I understood it and tried it, but found I did better with my own system which is no system at all, just aim by "feel". For me that works best. When I find I just can't "feel" the aim, there is a different Houle system I try.
I personally think there is no substitute for taking lots and lots of shots for improving aiming. The mind is a marvelous instrument and when you miss or pocket the ball, it effects your aiming behaviour next time you aim. Furthermore, I think, as suggest by Bob J, that as time goes on for people using SAM, their mind absorbs there successes and failures and they start making unconcious adjustments to the basic SAM shots. That is, the SAM number system gets them close, but unconcious adjustments are made beyond that to their exact aiming point as they enter their final set position. I think it was Yogi Berra who said "You can't hit and think at the same time."

 

[PKM]

A question that would apply to any fractional aiming system, and as I understand it, SAM would fall under this category.

Imagine changing the angle of a shot by small increments, at some point you're going to change from one fractional hit to the next. If you're right on the border, doesn't that mean you're going to have to hit between those two aim points? Or is the argument that the margin of error is high enough so it won't matter for those shots?

I'm bumping my question if you don't mind.

 

[RBLilly]

Sam

Well they say it is a supplemental system, and yes it is supplemental. But it does work!

It works on all tables 7,8,9 and it works very well in the 1-4 possitions. As Scott said, that is where most shots lie anyway.

The reason it is harder on a 9 foot, or a shimmed table is the fact that you have to be dead on. You can't miss your SAM number at all.

So what your saying is you have to be more accurate? Heck yea, but that is with any aiming system on those tables.

I won't lie though, it takes some people a little while to see how SAM works. It doesn't click for everyone in the first 10 minutes of use. It took me about 6 months to get used to it. My wife still hasn't gotten it.

I wish I could get others to use it, just so when we play league I could help them more. It would be a great talking tool for us.

Anyway, the story is yes it works, and yes I use it all the time. (well most the time. LOL On thin cuts that are 5 and 6 I do what Scott does.)

 

[randyg]

I don't use S.A.M on thin and very thin cut shots either. I use the "edge-to-edge" system...randyg