Safety Abuse?

TheNewSharkster

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Last night at 8ball pool league I was playing a SL6. I am also a SL6. We were playing a race to 5. I like to think I am a safety oriented player. I hate selling out and like control of the table.

I think on game 7 (we were tied 3-3) I get in a position where I have a couple balls and he is on the 8. I played 3 lock-up safety shots in a row. After the 3rd he starts *****ing at me and says I need to learn how to shoot.

I smiled at him and kindly said I would play 1000 safety shots in a row if I thought it would give me the best odds of winning. I don't think that helped him feel better about it. I could tell he was upset. Probably because he was only getting crappy shape.

Now I might play a little more defensive than some players but this scenario was pretty back and white. I only had a tough shot and if I missed he would win. On top of that he wasn't giving me a ball in hand so I had a similar safety shot each time. I only had to slow roll the cue into the OB on the left side. Cut was possible but why mess with it? The shot and position were tough.

Anyways, I won 5-4 and on the scoresheet I had 12 defensive shots marked (I actually think I had more). I am curious what others thoughts are on this subject? If you know it will frustrate your opposing player is it ok to start playing really tight? Should anybody expect a certain number of defensive shots? Can you go too far with safety play?
 
Safety play is part of the game...the key is to not get upset about it. Even SVB can mess up a safety shot & leave an opening.
 
I think it really depends if you want to win at league. Against certain people I wouldnt play a single safety, it pushes your handicap up, its only league, its basically a night out to bang balls.

Ive played an 8 ball tournament where Ive played literally 20 safeties in a row to win the game (8 ball and last ball tied up, bunting it around the table)

Ive also marked safeties against players who I think are missing on purpose. In the CPA (APA) any shot where you dont think the player is intending to make the ball counts as defensive. Ive had matches where I thought the player was dumping and the majority of the innings I marked a safety.
 
I think it really depends if you want to win at league. Against certain people I wouldnt play a single safety, it pushes your handicap up, its only league, its basically a night out to bang balls.

Ive played an 8 ball tournament where Ive played literally 20 safeties in a row to win the game (8 ball and last ball tied up, bunting it around the table)

Ive also marked safeties against players who I think are missing on purpose. In the CPA (APA) any shot where you dont think the player is intending to make the ball counts as defensive. Ive had matches where I thought the player was dumping and the majority of the innings I marked a safety.

I have to ask, Why can't people just play the game right and not worry about your rating. If your saying it's just a night out to bang balls it shouldn't matter if your ratting goes up. It's sad that if you don't sandbag you can't win in Vegas. And it turns people into sandbagging nits.
 
I have to ask, Why can't people just play the game right and not worry about your rating. If your saying it's just a night out to bang balls it shouldn't matter if your ratting goes up. It's sad that if you don't sandbag you can't win in Vegas. And it turns people into sandbagging nits.


Personally speaking I don't really care what my APA rank is. I play to win my match. If it takes 100 innings and 30 defensive shots so be it.
 
And that's why you'll get better and he'll get bitter. The point isn't to *try* to make all of your balls, the point is to win. You win by getting additional chances to shoot. If he can't figure that out, you'll continue to win those matchups. Good playing.

Anybody that thinks a match should be a shot-making competition is either a better shot or doesn't know how to play the game at a decent level. FWIW, the last person that tried to seriously(as opposed to messing around w/ friends) goade me into taking a shot could've wiped the floor with me in a shoot-out, but I won 5-3 for a whopping $20. :thumbup:

Considering he's a 6 and the way he sounds, he probably gets most of his wins against weak 6s and below. He probably gets slaughtered by 7s unless they're having an off night, by trying to outshoot them(or even keep up with them). Keep playing smart and you'll get there soon enough.
 
I recently saw two players almost come to blows over safety play in the APA. The whole scenario took place on the table right next to mine.

Very similar scenario, a defensive oriented player playing an offensive oriented player, the offensive player blew his lid after several lock down safeties in a row by the defensive player.

I have always been of the mindset that you have to have both a good offense and defense to be good at any competitive sport.

I think some folks just get upset because they are outwitted and their only response is to be verbally offensive.

Steve H.
 
Frustrating a player is a good strategic move on your part. All you should worry about is that you made a legal hit. What you choose to do with it is all on you. How your opponent feels about it is irrelevant. Especially in league.
 
Safeties are a important part of the game. Sometimes out smarting your opponent is as much fun or more than out shooting them.

If you're playing so many safeties it causes you to have problems running out when you need to, then IMO its to many. Playing smart is the right thing to do, playing scared (to run out) is another matter all together.
 
I have to ask, Why can't people just play the game right and not worry about your rating. If your saying it's just a night out to bang balls it shouldn't matter if your ratting goes up. It's sad that if you don't sandbag you can't win in Vegas. And it turns people into sandbagging nits.

I totally agree.
I hear 8-ball leaguers talking like wise-guy pool hustlers....
...and I ask them "Why do you play league?"
"You obviously like the game, you'll like it even more if you play as
good as you can."
 
If playing safeties negatively affects your ability to win, then yes you can go too far with safety play.

The best 8-ball players by far are offensive players.

Yes, offensive, but not stupid.. one must know when it's time to duck. If an 'offensive' player can play smart safeties, they can get back to the table to do their thing. Running out, safing up, then going again is not something people enjoy.. and being confident and capable in your safety play can assist you in turning the tables when somebody pulls that on you, too. I like to think of 8b as game of aggressive table management.
 
I've run into a few like that.

Now Im normally pretty oldskool, AKA, take the shot 9/10 if theres any chance of pulling out but sometimes even I know when I gotta do what I gotta do to win.

So anyway, I play this guy one night and its reasonably tight. I've got no out at all and lock him up snug. He kicks and missed while not helping the table layout at all so with BIH I lock him up again. So now he's like "Really?" so I go yeah and wink at him.

He kicks again and misses so I go "You could have at least hit something, oh well, guess whats coming again?"

Now he's pissed, he never makes a ball the rest of set. Afterwards he goes "Maybe next time we play, we'll actually play". So I say "Well if I knew that was all I had to do to get you so wadded up , next time I guess I wont have to play at all."

:)

Dom: Ask any racer, any real racer. It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile; winning's winning.
 
People do tend to get upset when they are losing, but don't let that keep you from playing the table.

Safety play is just part of the strategy, and I play with some guys that would probably make him quit pool all together. They always take the opportunity to block key pockets, cluster opponents balls with the eight, knock balls away from pockets, and seem to leave the QB in a terrible position if they happen to miss.
 
Your playing to win and defense is part of the game. Chances are the players who cry about your defensive game...... don't have one. (These are also the guys who hit a block wall and don't get any better) Potting balls, position, the break, and defense are important parts of the game......if your lacking one, keep your $ in the bank because a good player will take it before you know what happened:D
 
I have to ask, Why can't people just play the game right and not worry about your rating. If your saying it's just a night out to bang balls it shouldn't matter if your ratting goes up. It's sad that if you don't sandbag you can't win in Vegas. And it turns people into sandbagging nits.


Keeping your peak is very mentally straining, majority of the time I'm playing cash games so I'll save my focus for that and just enjoy my night out. Last time I played CPA I was a 7 in 8 ball so my handicap doesn't come into play all that much. I also don't really want a 2 hour match at league every week either if it's a long race, working mornings is tough when you have a 40 minute drive home.
 
Frustrating a player is a good strategic move on your part. ...

True...breaking an opponent's psyche is arguably the best thing one can do to increase win chance.

There was a guy that I struggled against in tourney play one set (I think I won, close though), next time we played, it was ~3-3, going to 9. I shoot to the 8, then have a shot I'd love to have every game- 8/9 next to each other, both in middle of table...gotta snap CB to stay near 9 and there is a slight chance I can sscratch.

I fired it @12541mph, straight into the rail, stopping cb against the 9 while 8 went 3-4 lengths of the table. He was dead safe, called me a 'fukcing azzhole'- I got BIH and he made very few balls the rest of that set, and then i ran him over in the loser's side later that event.
 
If playing safeties negatively affects your ability to win, then yes you can go too far with safety play.

The best 8-ball players by far are offensive players.


This is exactly right. In my experience, the best 8-ball players are offensive and high level 8-ball is quite offensive.


I get what the OP is saying. But what Fred says is best, but I will modify it. If safety play is to the detriment of your GAME, then it is probably excessive.

Your game and winning are two different things. In a match, do whatever it takes to win. Period. If that means playing a safety because the shots or the out presented is too low percentage or outside of your ability, that's just smart play.


However, for your overall game, if you are finding yourself playing safe on situations where you should instead be attempting the out and getting out, then the safety game is serving as a crutch and holding you back. Only you can judge that. Let's just say this, as your game improves, there will be progressively less and less situations you need to play safe in, as you will be able to get out on more and more difficult patterns or ball positions with less and less risk of missing.


But match time is not LEARNING TIME ...it's not time to experiment. Do what it takes to win. But in practice, be more aggressive and try those outs. You won't learn unless you start attempting them. I wouldn't go too far and attempt everything and anything. There is such a thing as sucker shot and sure-sell out position. Use your best judgement.


When I used to play APA, I would see people play safe on patterns that should be well within their ability to run out. That displays a lack of confidence. Lack of faith in one's game. Now it depends, if they are having an off day and are resorting to that, fine. If they didn't practice much and don't feel 100%, fine. But I've seen people who are perfectly fine at their level default to a safe out of lack of confidence. That's bad. That's why most of them suck and are stuck at that level.


Usually, a successful safe works, but the reason good players do not use them as much is because anytime you give up the table - you leave yourself vulnerable to the unknown. Many times I see excessive safety users get burnt when a ball gets kicked in, or kicked and the resulting leave is return safety, or some position far worse than what they had in the first place when they decided to duck the run.


This leaning toward safeties excessively works at the lower levels (APA SL6 and below), but is less effective and more prone to danger at the higher levels. That's because higher level players can kick pretty well. And the world (game) changes when you play a safe against a good kicker. When you get down and assess the odds and risks, your decision is different if the kick and hit by your opponent is 90% or higher. Because now, the chance of the ball being made is higher, and more importantly, the chance that you will get return hooked, or left something awful is much, much higher. You can get away with this crap in the APA because most people don't come close to hitting the ball. And BIH is the result. You can't get away with BIH as much as the level of play increases.


Because of that, anytime you play safe - you are opening yourself up risk, you are vulnerable. I keep repeating that, because it is true.


CONTROL of the TABLE...that means different things to different levels. In the APA, controlling the table is making shots that are sure thing, then playing safe (because safes are more effective against weak players with weak kicking skills). However, in higher level play, control of the table is making your balls, and getting shape on the next shot. In other words, the continuation of your run. As soon as that cannot happen, and a safety is decided on, you lose some control. You don't completely lose control, as it's up to your opponent what they do with the kick after your safe. But you do leave it up to some chance and their skills.


In other words, as soon as you give up the table - even if by playing safe, you are now rolling the dice. That's how it is in higher level play. Anytime the table is handed over, it's rolling the dice and chance is there. The outcome or the goal of getting back the table is not a sure thing. Not even close. It's in the safety player's FAVOR, but it's no sure thing.


That is why higher level players are resistant to the safety option, and prefer to go offense, even if a tough out for their skills. Because in a tough out they maintain control. It's in their hands. Like it is said of NFL quarterbacks. Winners want the ball! Winners always want the ball at the end of the game. In pool it is the same, winners want to stay at the table. Playing safety is like punting, then there's a fumble and a scramble for the ball. Who wants that? Compared to getting down, knowing where you need to hit, and executing the shot.


It sucks to get burned by a good kick, or the opponent hits the ball and leaves you total crap. Worse than what you had before. That's what you set yourself up for when you play safe.


Now, all that said...knowing this has to alter your decision process. You can get away with safeties much more at the lower level. I know this for a fact. But against a tougher player, it becomes less and less of a sure thing to regain control of the table. BIH becomes less of a chance too.


For matches, do what it takes to win. But if you want to improve, learn to be more offensive and use safeties when it is absolutely necessary.


In closing, think of it this way:


Knowing full well the risks of the safety (kick the ball in, kick and leave you safe, or kick and leave you miserable position), when you option for the safety, those outcomes need to be a reasonable risk to accept because what you're CURRENTLY facing on the run is just as risky or miserable or worse. Now be honest, if the run ahead of you is that bad, go for the safe. But if it is not, you have to go offense. Don't subject the game to your opponent's skills and luck. That is never a good idea.


Good luck.
 
Sometimes you can go overboard with safetys,but if you don't play them when called for, you just don't like winning.
 
I like to see my personal ranking on the Leader Board.
Other than that, I am playing for my team first and foremost.

Safety play is part of the game. Your opponent has the same opportunity as you do re safety shots.

Also, safety shots can come back and bite you in the butt if not executed properly. We've all done it and will continue to do so.

I am pretty much in the same with the OP as I will play as many safeties as I feel are necessary to give myself the advantage over my opponent.

Last week, my opponent could have pulled the perfect safety on me, putting the Q directly behind his last OB and out of line with my last shot, the 8.

The captain, who just happens to be pretty much the most disliked player in our division, got up and pretended to say something to his wife who happened to be walking past the table at the time. What he really did was tell my opponent to safety me under his breath.
How did I know this? Because my opponent answered him back by saying, "I'm not going to start playing hide and seek with this guy now". Kind of off topic, sorry, just wanted to mention it.
 
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