scoop shot is it legal???

fastone371 said:
..., 8 ball slightly less than a cube of chalk away from cue ball. Straight in shot, I made the 8 but cue ball rolled too far forward. ...
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It is possible to play a legal follow shot in that position, but you have to have a knowledgeable ref. The easy way to avoid a foul call is to stop the cue ball dead on contact with the object ball or even draw it back a little without any penetration into the space of the object ball. It is a good shot to practice.
 
Neil said:
It's a double hit. Notice how the cb takes off the same speed as the ob does. the cb then slows down rapidly due to the draw on it, but it is very easy to see the initial speed the same as the ob.

And, that's not even to mention the fact that he used draw, and the cb shouldn't have gone forward at all.
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It looked more like the cue ball was hit so that it was sliding at contact with the object ball and then transitioned to a forward roll immediately after. In either case (sliding or with backspin) it shouldn't have gone forward of the tangent line though as you point out.

Even if the cue ball had been hit at the top to give follow this was still very clearly a double hit foul. You can tell as you pointed out by the speed the cue ball goes forward, as well as by the fact that you didn't have that slight hesitation before it got up to full speed, also the angle that it goes forward and the fact that it takes that line immediately without even trying to first move down the tangent line even for a split second first. It sounds like you can hear the double hit as well although I wouldn't rely on that. The cue ball action tells you 100% of what you need to know here. Clearly a double hit foul.

For those that are not real clear on double hits and want to learn more (not you Neil), here is a page from Dr. Dave that shows a lot of good stuff about double hits verses legal hits and how to tell the difference as well as what is actually happening in slow motion. If memory is correct I think he even covers scoop shots and accidental scoop shots and their legality too--the topic of the original post.
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/fouls.html#double

This link goes into even more detail on all the above with tons of video shot demonstrations and is actually a quite fun quiz to take. I recommend everyone try it and see how well you score (no cheating...lol). You might be surprised. As I recall a few of these are not real easy even for most of those who feel they have good pool experience.
http://billiards.colostate.edu/pool_rules_quiz.html
 
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Drop The Rock said:
I linked the rule in another post and WPA rules have been posted as well.

Here is the line with the double hit rule. If the double hit occurred because of the cue ball's proximity to an object ball or rail its a foul. Otherwise unless its obvious the cue ball came in contact with the shaft, its a miscue and not a foul. In other words the double hit is almost only called if the cue ball is coming in direct contact with a rail or object ball.

Where it gets tricky is miscuing in order to avoid a double hit. This is where the intentional part gets tricky but a ref or TD has to be watching to make the call.
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Thanks dude, you're the bomb!
 
An opponent scooped one intentionally on me a few weeks ago. Didn't make his shot though. He's only a sport player, as am I, and I said "that's a foul you know". Well, he got all defensive and loudly shouted back "you and your rules!!! How else am I supposed to go over a ball?" "Bob, it's simply a foul and don't do again"....calmly I said. The rest of the room supported me of course and there was no more discussion about it. Mitch
 
Drop The Rock said:
Foul. The stroke required for this shot involves extreme English and a quick cuing.
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I would agree, he hit the cue ball almost center and yet it traveled up the table pretty quick and did not travel the tangent line very long if at all really. Even if he hit it with high English it would not have taken forward roll that quick.
 
In the Official Rules of CueSports International
page 34...

1-34 Jump Shots and Massé Shots
1. Jump shots are legal shots. However, it is a foul if you intentionally cause the cue ball to rise off the bed of the table by "digging under" or "scooping" the cue ball with the cue. If such a motion is unintentional, it is considered a miscue, and not a foul in and of itself.
 
https://youtu.be/B-UlQ65Bedo?t=2h46m54s

no foul.

i see it as

-if you have a clear path to a ball and you scoop trying to draw it, not a foul.

-if your path is blocked by a ball, why would you be drawing it in the first place?
you'd either be kicking, masse, or legal jumping. foul
 
Bob Jewett said:
It is possible to play a legal follow shot in that position, but you have to have a knowledgeable ref. The easy way to avoid a foul call is to stop the cue ball dead on contact with the object ball or even draw it back a little without any penetration into the space of the object ball. It is a good shot to practice.
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I understand that, I showed them that shot over and over at least 10xs, but according to BCAPL the cue ball can not roll past the spot the object ball occupied whether its good hit or not.
 
Neil said:
If the balls are frozen together, you will not have a double hit. I suggest you look at Dr. Daves site that proves this fact so you will have a better understanding of just what is actually happening on balls close together and balls frozen together.
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But I do have a good understanding of what happens when balls are frozen together. Not all shots shooting straight thru frozen balls are legal, one would be naive to believe this. The action of the cue ball will tell if its double hit or not, unfortunately BCAPL takes the possibility of calling a bad hit a foul by calling all frozen ball shots legal, end of story. I had an opponents cue ball take off on a 45 degree angle shooting straight thru a pair of frozen balls, only way that happens is a double hit.
 
fastone371 said:
But I do have a good understanding of what happens when balls are frozen together. Not all shots shooting straight thru frozen balls are legal, one would be naive to believe this. The action of the cue ball will tell if its double hit or not, unfortunately BCAPL takes the possibility of calling a bad hit a foul by calling all frozen ball shots legal, end of story. I had an opponents cue ball take off on a 45 degree angle shooting straight thru a pair of frozen balls, only way that happens is a double hit.
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Sorry, but that just isn't true. It is not hard at all to get the cb to go off on a 45 degree angle with a frozen ball. If shot quickly, it can also be hard to tell if the cue actually stayed on a straight line or not. (watch this again if you haven't seen it- http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-2.htm )

In fact, with frozen balls, the balls act as one unit as far as mass is concerned. Which means that it is very hard to get a double hit at all. Close to as hard as it is to get a double hit just hitting the cb alone with no ob nearby.
 
Neil said:
Sorry, but that just isn't true. It is not hard at all to get the cb to go off on a 45 degree angle with a frozen ball. If shot quickly, it can also be hard to tell if the cue actually stayed on a straight line or not. (watch this again if you haven't seen it- http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-2.htm )

In fact, with frozen balls, the balls act as one unit as far as mass is concerned. Which means that it is very hard to get a double hit at all. Close to as hard as it is to get a double hit just hitting the cb alone with no ob nearby.
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For those interested, many more videos and information dealing with this topic can be found on the frozen-CB-shot resource page.

Enjoy,
Dave
 
Neil said:
Sorry, but that just isn't true. It is not hard at all to get the cb to go off on a 45 degree angle with a frozen ball. If shot quickly, it can also be hard to tell if the cue actually stayed on a straight line or not. (watch this again if you haven't seen it- http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-2.htm )

In fact, with frozen balls, the balls act as one unit as far as mass is concerned. Which means that it is very hard to get a double hit at all. Close to as hard as it is to get a double hit just hitting the cb alone with no ob nearby.
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we use the CB/OB stuck in one pocket and smooth stroke it to the rail and get a double click as they stay stuck......its completely legal, but a shitty unsmooth stroke will cause you to double hit the CB.....its not hard but its not easy.

as for that crap bcapl and other rules that a CB couldn't go forward past a particular spot....i routinely show off shots with draw and follow with 1/4"-1/2" gaps between balls in legal fashion. Just another reason I dont play league......spend years perfecting my craft to have some donkey rule say I fouled......a keeb aint got no time for that crap.

-Greyghost
 
Neil said:
Sorry, but that just isn't true. It is not hard at all to get the cb to go off on a 45 degree angle with a frozen ball. If shot quickly, it can also be hard to tell if the cue actually stayed on a straight line or not. (watch this again if you haven't seen it- http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-2.htm )

In fact, with frozen balls, the balls act as one unit as far as mass is concerned. Which means that it is very hard to get a double hit at all. Close to as hard as it is to get a double hit just hitting the cb alone with no ob nearby.
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Let me see if I understand what you are saying. If a shooter shoots straight thru the centers of 2 frozen balls you expect the cue ball not to follow the object ball??? How would you surmise the cue ball is going anywhere but the same place the object ball is going. I understand tangent lines, in fact I learned a great deal about tangent lines on Dr. Daves dvd set I bought, but there is no 45 degree tangent on a straight shot, if there is I am begging you to share this info with me so the next time I am dead straight on a shot I can do something other than draw or follow.
 
fastone371 said:
Let me see if I understand what you are saying. If a shooter shoots straight thru the centers of 2 frozen balls you expect the cue ball not to follow the object ball??? How would you surmise the cue ball is going anywhere but the same place the object ball is going. I understand tangent lines, in fact I learned a great deal about tangent lines on Dr. Daves dvd set I bought, but there is no 45 degree tangent on a straight shot, if there is I am begging you to share this info with me so the next time I am dead straight on a shot I can do something other than draw or follow.
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If the CB is frozen to the OB, it's legal to shoot straight ahead into the CB, with both balls then travelling forward together.
 
fastone371 said:
Let me see if I understand what you are saying. If a shooter shoots straight thru the centers of 2 frozen balls you expect the cue ball not to follow the object ball??? How would you surmise the cue ball is going anywhere but the same place the object ball is going. I understand tangent lines, in fact I learned a great deal about tangent lines on Dr. Daves dvd set I bought, but there is no 45 degree tangent on a straight shot, if there is I am begging you to share this info with me so the next time I am dead straight on a shot I can do something other than draw or follow.
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No, if they are frozen, and you shoot straight through the centers of both balls, then they have to go together straight. However, it is not hard to make it look like one is shooting straight through the centers, and not actually do so, but hit the cb at a slight angle. Unless one is intent on watching the straightness of the stroke, it could easily be missed hitting at an angle on the final stroke.
 
Neil said:
No, if they are frozen, and you shoot straight through the centers of both balls, then they have to go together straight. However, it is not hard to make it look like one is shooting straight through the centers, and not actually do so, but hit the cb at a slight angle. Unless one is intent on watching the straightness of the stroke, it could easily be missed hitting at an angle on the final stroke.
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yup sorta like the fastest gun...but thats speed based. this you could just use BHE to accomplish such a thing
 
greyghost said:
as for that crap bcapl and other rules that a CB couldn't go forward past a particular spot....i routinely show off shots with draw and follow with 1/4"-1/2" gaps between balls in legal fashion. Just another reason I dont play league......spend years perfecting my craft to have some donkey rule say I fouled......a keeb aint got no time for that crap.

-Greyghost
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Some call it crap others call it rules of physics. If your cue ball is not heavier than the object ball then you are never going to make it travel past the objet ball collision point even if you use a crochet mallet.
 
Skippy27 said:
Some call it crap others call it rules of physics. If your cue ball is not heavier than the object ball then you are never going to make it travel past the objet ball collision point even if you use a crochet mallet.
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Are you sure that's the stance you want to take with it worded that way?
 
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