Scott Frost vs Ronnie Allen in his prime

[SJDinPHX]

Who's doing the 'accounting?' Must be A West Cost, Protestant! LOL!

As a professional, best selling [sic] author..doesn't it ever bother you, that you cannot even get through a short sentence without misspelling at least two words ?..RTOF-LFAMO !..

SJD <---Thinks Mr3IQ must have his hero AB, proof read all his posts ! :thumbup:

 

[mr3cushion]

As a professional, best selling [sic] author..doesn't it ever bother you, that you cannot even get through a short sentence without misspelling at least two words ?..RTOF-LFAMO !..

SJD <---Thinks Mr3IQ must have his hero AB, proof read all his posts ! :thumbup:

Since your (so called) pool career NEVER got off the ground, and maybe with all your 'literary police' experience, you can get a gig checking out books at the, 'Christian Science Reading Room!'

 

[CJ Wiley]

Allen Hopkins was the best one-pocket player

Has anyone admitted that Allen Hopkins was the best one-pocket player yet?

Guess not, carry on......

 

[Spimp13]

Has anyone admitted that Allen Hopkins was the best one-pocket player yet?

Guess not, carry on......

Better then Efren? Notsureifserious.jpg ... carry on

 

[Chitown54321]

My opinion, this is the answer to the OP's questions. The man has played against legends while becoming one himself, should not be any doubt after t his response.

Love listening to Billy commentate any 1 pocket matches, hope to meet the gent one day!

This thread is about Frost vs Ronnie and imo their both great players and it would be very difficult to predict who would win, however, when it comes to Reyes there's no comparison. Reyes is the strongest one pocket player in the last 50 plus years..bar none.

There have been people that said that Ronnie was the best cash player of all time, well Ronnie played great for the cash but he was beaten by several of the top players in his era. Taylor beat him and so did Bugs, yes he beat Bugs as well but my point is that he was beatable. Reyes has never been beaten by any top player playing even one pocket, matter of fact Reyes has spotted all the top players and has beaten every one he played. He gave Hopkins 9/8 in NJ and won, Joyner didn't have a chance playing Reyes gettting 8/7 when Joyner was playing his best pool. Joyner is right up there with all the greats when he was in his prime. Reyes gave Steve Cook 10/8 in Tampa where Cook lived and beat him easily. Reyes also gave players like Frost and Corey Deuel 10/7 when they were younger, yes they were not in their prime of life but none the less they were strong players.

Reyes played tournament one pocket better than any one that has ever played the game, six Derby City championships with fields of 300 plus in a race to three:yikes: Are you kidding me!! Dick mentioned that Corey should of beaten Reyes in the U.S. Open three years ago for the title, or a shot to play for the title. Can't argue with him there, however, we're talkin about at that time a 58 year old player. Reyes also beat Shannon in the finals of the Galveston tournament at the age of 56.

When we talk about players the likes of Frost, Allen, Bodendorfer, Joyner Taylor, Metz, imo we're splitting hairs their all playing for second place. I played all the players mentioned with the exception of Taylor and Metz, I have played Reyes many many times..he is clearly the best of all time.

Bill Incardona

 

[jay helfert]

Good post Jay, matter of fact all your post are right on with your evaluation of the players from the west. As far as SJD is concerned I know that he played very good one pocket, maybe 9/8 or 8/7 under Ronnie back in the day. But you must know that Ronnie was 9/8 over the great Eddie Kelly as well, which sorta defines the caliber of a player SJD was. As far as comparing SJD with Artie that would be very hard for any one to do including myself, quite honestly I really never seen Artie play much one pocket, I played him when I was in my early 20's and was clearly out classed, however, my game improved by balls afterward. Do I think that in my prime I could of beaten Artie? Probably not, but I believe I would of made him work. I played Ronnie 10/8 and it was a close game when I was around 28 years old, my one pocket game was not at it's peak at that time in my life I played my best one pocket when I was in my mid 30's and would of beaten Ronnie 10/8 at that time..if that means any thing.

So you see that comparing players from that era against one another is very difficult, especially since back then players played in fewer tournaments because there were better fish to fry on the road playing "suckers" I apologize to any of you guys who can relate to that..i'm talking about you fishes.:duck: Any ways, even comparing players of today is hard and we are all here to watch them play in tournaments and gambling, and in spite of that there are ongoing debates on who's the best..Reyes..Frost..VanBoening..Pagulayan.. GET MY DRIFT So really, how are we able to compare players from another era, it's like the catching fish stories we hear when someone says that they caught a fish this big and every time the story is told the fish keeps getting bigger. I'll end this by saying that based on my experience with top players playing the game of one pocket (regardless of what era) there's not much of a difference but I would tend to believe that one pocket is played better today then in any era before, mainly because there are many many more players that play it, which in turn means that there are many more better ball strikers that play in today's one pocket. Would that be a reasonable deduction?

As far as me saying to Scott that Artie was never a top player wouldn't be something that I would say, which is evidenced in an earlier post where I included Artie with ..Frost, Allen, Taylor, Joyner, and Metz.as being among the best ever, of course their all behind Reyes.

Dr. Bill

Thanks Billy, Ronnie also gave Jersey Red (a great One Pocket player) 9-8 and won. In fact that was Ronnie's standard game against the other champions of his era. Guys like Shorty or Ervolino could get 9-8 and maybe 8-7 on Ronnie's break. I watched Ronnie play Kelly twice (both times in L.A. in two different rooms). The first time he gave Eddie 9-8 at Ye Billiard Den and won a few games over the course of several hours of play (maybe five or six games ahead). The second time was at Ronnie's room in North Hollywood, where Ronnie tried to give Kelly 8-7. The outcome was just the opposite with Kelly coming out on top several games. I think they did play again with the spot being 9-8, 8-7 but I wasn't there for that one, so I don't know how that turned out. We can ask Eddie next time we see him in Vegas. He remembers EVERYTHING! :grin:

 

[jay helfert]

Billy; Thanks for taking time out to clarify the mystique of some of the posts in this thread!

I'm satisfied with your reply!

P.S. With the names of players that Billy including as being the BEST of that era, IMHO, one name for sure is missing, that of 'Toby Sweet!' He played as well as any player back when He owned the, 'Cue Club.'

It played ALL games VERY good, including (golf) on a snooker table, He beat RA! He also gave Jack Cooney, 10/8, JC won once and so did Toby! He played Ike Runnels, 8/5 and won!

Efren roasted Toby (Flaherty) giving him 8-7, 8-6! In the rematch Efren tried to give Toby 9-6 and this time he got roasted! :thumbup:
P.S. I was in with Toby the second time. I loved Efren's game, but I felt he was in over his head, and he was!

P.P.S. I'm proud to say that years before Toby was partners in the Cue Club, he hustled me to play him some Banks. This was in the late 80's or early 90's. I was in there playing some cheap Banks with a friend of mine and Toby sweated the game and when it was over he asked me to play some for 50 a game, short rack Banks. I was in stroke now and feeling pretty good so I said yes I'll play. We must have played for four or five hours and it was a dead heat. I finally gave up on him, cause to be honest he was wearing me down. I felt like if I kept playing he would have beaten me. But he didn't!

 

[jay helfert]

Has anyone admitted that Allen Hopkins was the best one-pocket player yet?

Guess not, carry on......

Definitely two of the best right here, Allen Hopkins and Steve Cook. They were dominant in the generation after Ronnie, along with the Miz (tournaments only), Sigel and Varner. It was a toss up among those five guys. And then Shannon Daulton came along to spoil their party and soon after Efren took charge for the next twenty years!

 

[mr3cushion]

Definitely two of the best right here, Allen Hopkins and Steve Cook. They were dominant in the generation after Ronnie, along with the Miz (tournaments only), Sigel and Varner. It was a toss up among those five guys. And then Shannon Daulton came along to spoil their party and soon after Efren took charge for the next twenty years!

As a side note, Artie never played Steve and Allen declined to play Artie, EVEN!

BTW, Artie and Shorty played a match, race to 30 for 5K, Artie beat him 30 11!

After that, Shorty couldn't get staked to play 9/8! Not bad for a kid that supposedly wasn't considered a TOP player!

 

[SJDinPHX]

Since your (so called) pool career NEVER got off the ground, and maybe with all your 'literary police' experience, you can get a gig checking out books at the, 'Christian Science Reading Room!'

At least I played all the 'current' action games, against all comer's ! ..I didn't hide behind some 60 year old game, with only 8-10 players in the whole country..and NOBODY that gambled at it !...Everyone snickers, when you brag about being in the 'top ten' in that situation ! (do the math)

SJD--Also, I'm sure glad I didn't have to 'subsidize' my income, the way YOU did !

 

[mr3cushion]

At least I played all the 'current' action games, against all comer's ! ..I didn't hide behind some 60 year old game, with only 8-10 players in the whole country..and NOBODY that gambled at it !...Everyone snickers, when you brag about being in the 'top ten' in that situation ! (do the math)

SJD--Also, I'm sure glad I didn't have to 'subsidize' my income, the way YOU did !

You finally said something correct, you played all comer's and 90% of them BEAT you! You had too much ego for such little game!

There 30 players at least that could of played you and won, in your era, I was going to say prime, but, that would be stretching things a little!

It sure it's hard for you to swallow that I won SO MUCH MORE money by accident than you in my life, playing that little, 'niche' game!

Btw, Do YOU have one of these, along with ALL the rest of the TOP Players and Hustlers of the past 60 years, from Freddy's book? I didn't think so! :sorry:

Billy “Mr. 3 Cushion” Smith

Chicago, IL – Top Three-cushion billiard player and biggest bettor of all the billiard
players



Bill, while we are telling stories, I've got one you'll get a kick out of. I'm sure you
don't remember this, but we met about 20 years ago at the Chicago Billiards Cafe.
You were knocking balls around on the table closest to the counter, so Deno
introduced us and gave me a quick bio about you.

About a week later I was back in Cincinnati at my poolroom, Beechmont Billiards.
Bucky Bell has been a friend of mine, and a player rep for my cues, for many
years. Bucky happened to be in that morning, and he was hitting balls around on
my old Brunswick Anniversary carom table. He made the casual statement that he
wished there was someone he could gamble with at Three-cushion. Bucky said, “Those damn billiard players are a bunch of stuffed shirts. They won't
bet that they're alive!”

I said, “Bucky, I can get you a game with Bill Smith.” I thought it was generic
enough of a name that he'd probably not recognize it. To my surprise, Bucky's
face kind of exploded, and he spewed his coffee out and all down the front of my
shirt. When he was able to talk, he asked “What kind of a trap are you trying to put me in? That damn Billy Smith is probably the best American Three-cushion player on
the planet, and he will gamble!”

Sherm Abramson, Custom Cues

Bucky Bell used to come around The Rack once in awhile. He didn’t get into too much action. Me, I got my gambling experience at Bensinger’s. At Bensinger’s, you had to gamble at something, or starve to death.

One of my first gambles at Three-cushion was with Milton Berle, $10 bucks a game, 25 points. I beat him three in a row for 30 bananas and he stiffed me, the cheap p***k! Bill Smith

 

[Fast Lenny]

You finally said something correct, you played all comer's and 90% of them BEAT you! You had too much ego for such little game!

There 30 players at least that could of played you and won, in your era, I was going to say prime, but, that would be stretching things a little!

It sure it's hard for you to swallow that I won SO MUCH MORE money by accident than you in my life, playing that little, 'niche' game!

Btw, Do YOU have one of these, along with ALL the rest of the TOP Players and Hustlers of the past 60 years, from Freddy's book? I didn't think so! :sorry:

Billy “Mr. 3 Cushion” Smith

Chicago, IL – Top Three-cushion billiard player and biggest bettor of all the billiard
players

View attachment 374968

Bill, while we are telling stories, I've got one you'll get a kick out of. I'm sure you
don't remember this, but we met about 20 years ago at the Chicago Billiards Cafe.
You were knocking balls around on the table closest to the counter, so Deno
introduced us and gave me a quick bio about you.

About a week later I was back in Cincinnati at my poolroom, Beechmont Billiards.
Bucky Bell has been a friend of mine, and a player rep for my cues, for many
years. Bucky happened to be in that morning, and he was hitting balls around on
my old Brunswick Anniversary carom table. He made the casual statement that he
wished there was someone he could gamble with at Three-cushion. Bucky said, “Those damn billiard players are a bunch of stuffed shirts. They won't
bet that they're alive!”

I said, “Bucky, I can get you a game with Bill Smith.” I thought it was generic
enough of a name that he'd probably not recognize it. To my surprise, Bucky's
face kind of exploded, and he spewed his coffee out and all down the front of my
shirt. When he was able to talk, he asked “What kind of a trap are you trying to put me in? That damn Billy Smith is probably the best American Three-cushion player on
the planet, and he will gamble!”

Sherm Abramson, Custom Cues

Bucky Bell used to come around The Rack once in awhile. He didn’t get into too much action. Me, I got my gambling experience at Bensinger’s. At Bensinger’s, you had to gamble at something, or starve to death.

One of my first gambles at Three-cushion was with Milton Berle, $10 bucks a game, 25 points. I beat him three in a row for 30 bananas and he stiffed me, the cheap p***k! Bill Smith

Freddy and Dick were not friends so he did not end up in the book, if they were on better terms I am sure he would have been included. Dick is in the one pocket bible though, maybe Dick can tell us if it was SMS or WOP.

 

[mr3cushion]

Freddy and Dick were not friends so he did not end up in the book, if they were on better terms I am sure he would have been included. Dick is in the one pocket bible though, maybe Dick can tell us if it was SMS or WOP.

Well Lenny, that's what happens when you cross swords with the wrong people! You get 'ostracized' from the 'popular' group and reduced to a, 'footnote' for ages to bypass you!

By YOUR own admission, the fact that SJD keeps trying to convince everyone that he and Freddy were on the mend, is a JOKE!! That dog won't hunt!

 

[Fast Lenny]

Well Lenny, that's what happens when you cross swords with the wrong people! You get 'ostracized' from the 'popular' group and reduced to a, 'footnote' for ages to bypass you!

By YOUR own admission, the fact that SJD keeps trying to convince everyone that he and Freddy were on the mend, is a JOKE!! That dog won't hunt!

I would not call the enemies or use the word hatred, they did have times where they were okay or in truce mode from what I saw. If you asked most one pocket players what book they would rather be in though, SMS, WOP or Freddys book I think they would choose SMS or WOP.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Allen also gave me some great tips about playing one-pocket on a 10' table,

Definitely two of the best right here, Allen Hopkins and Steve Cook. They were dominant in the generation after Ronnie, along with the Miz (tournaments only), Sigel and Varner. It was a toss up among those five guys. And then Shannon Daulton came along to spoil their party and soon after Efren took charge for the next twenty years!

When I was on the road all the time in the 80s it was well known that no one was crazy about playing Hopkins. He was an extremely advanced gambler and prop. man., even stronger than Cooney overall.

Allen would take 4 tries to run all 15 balls in one pocket without ball-in-hand. That's pretty strong, he's the one that showed me how to break to run the 29 balls in a row that I show on YouTube. Allen also gave me some great tips about playing one-pocket on a 10' table, especially the break. I used his advice playing Tony Fargo and ended up winning when no one thought I could........thanks, Allen, I owe you one. :thumbup:

 

[mr3cushion]

I would not call the enemies or use the word hatred, they did have times where they were okay or in truce mode from what I saw. If you asked most one pocket players what book they would rather be in though, SMS, WOP or Freddys book I think they would choose SMS or WOP.

Freddy suffered from one other illness, most TRUE Italians are afflicted with it!
'Italian Alzheimer's,' 'WE NEVER forgive and we NEVER forget!" That's how it was till the end for Freddy!

Now, I've got some 'Chicago' one pocket to watch! :grin:

BTW, they raised the bet to 40K in the middle in Chicago, they EVER bet that kind of money in Phoenix?

Speaking of Phoenix, while He was alive and living there for several years, I would venture to say, a fellow Chicagoan, 'Mexican Johnny' was the 'BEST ALL Around' player there!

P.S. Chris is one ONLY of a few that plays REAL high, and bets HIS OWN!

 

[Fast Lenny]

Freddy suffered from one other illness, most TRUE Italians are afflicted with it!
'Italian Alzheimer's,' 'WE NEVER forgive and we NEVER forget!" That's how it was till the end for Freddy!

Now, I've got some 'Chicago' one pocket to watch! :grin:

BTW, they raised the bet to 40K in the middle in Chicago, they EVER bet that kind of money in Phoenix?

P.S. Chris is one ONLY of a few that plays REAL high, and bets HIS OWN!

Tell Danny Smith to come to Phoenix and he can bet 40k with the Freezer, haha. No one foolish enough to come play him here.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Tell Danny Smith to come to Phoenix and he can bet 40k with the Freezer, haha. No one foolish enough to come play him here.

Or Chris Gentile, or ANYONE else, from Chicago...In fact, there are more $500 players in Phoenix, than there are $5 players, in a city with 4-5 times the population !..But, Lenny, you are forgetting Mr3-IQ is "embarrasss proof"...Thats why he keeps bragging, and telling his own stories..NO ONE ELSE WILL ! :sorry:

SJD

PS..

Speaking of Phoenix, while He was alive and living there for several years, I would venture to say, a fellow Chicagoan, 'Mexican Johnny' was the 'BEST ALL Around' player there!

As usual, you 'venture' WRONG !...There are still a few people around, who remember what happened to Mexican Johnny..He never actually lived here, but the few times he visited, some old, (almost) over the hill guy, sent him packing..at ALL games !...Don't tell Mr3-IQ though, he'll just deny it, and I'll have to TRY and get him to bet more $$$$ on something AGAIN !

 

[mr3cushion]

Or Chris Gentile, or ANYONE else, from Chicago...In fact, there are more $500 players in Phoenix, than there are $5 players, in a city with 4-5 times the population !..But, Lenny, you are forgetting Mr3-IQ is "embarrasss proof"...Thats why he keeps bragging, and telling his own stories..NO ONE ELSE WILL ! :sorry:

SJD

PS..There are still a few people around, who remember what happened to Mexican Johnny, the few times he came to Phx..Some old, (almost) over the hill guy, sent him packing..at ALL games !...Don't tell 3-IQ though, he'll just deny it, and I'll have to TRY and get him to bet more $$$$ on it, AGAIN !

Boy, I have to tell you, when you take the bait, you take the entire hook, line and sinker! You are sooooooooo easy, it's beyond believe!

And, you wonder why, you were #1 on the West coast ' Sure Fire Score' for ALL the road players.

If you can get sucked in this easy on the net, what do think would happen when someone went to work on you in person!

The REAL facts are, you couldn't beat Johnny playing ANYTHING, except maybe, just maybe, golf!

 

[$TAKE HOR$E]

Freddy suffered from one other illness, most TRUE Italians are afflicted with it!
'Italian Alzheimer's,' 'WE NEVER forgive and we NEVER forget!" That's how it was till the end for Freddy!

Now, I've got some 'Chicago' one pocket to watch! :grin:

BTW, they raised the bet to 40K in the middle in Chicago, they EVER bet that kind of money in Phoenix?

Speaking of Phoenix, while He was alive and living there for several years, I would venture to say, a fellow Chicagoan, 'Mexican Johnny' was the 'BEST ALL Around' player there!

P.S. Chris is one ONLY of a few that plays REAL high, and bets HIS OWN!

What's the score