Scott Frost vs Ronnie Allen in his prime
- Thread starter nineballsafety8
- Start date
Why don't you, just for once..say what YOU mean, 'GENIUS' ?...Would you also like to wager I was NOT at Johnston City..'one' of the last 4 yrs. it was there ? :sorry:
SJD---This is just TOO easy !..I'm starting to feel guilty again ! :embarrassed2:
PS..Dang it Larry, you just gave him an excuse to escape...I may have to 'flame' you !
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Why don't you, just for once..say what YOU mean, 'GENIUS' ?...Would you also like to wager I was NOT at Johnston City..'one' of the last 4 yrs. it was there ? :sorry:
SJD---This is just TOO easy !..I'm starting to feel guilty again ! :embarrassed2:
PS..Dang it Larry, you just gave him an excuse to escape...I may have to 'flame' you !
sorry dick....:embarrassed2:
you guys can duke it out on your own...
as an aside and not wantig to hijack the thread
dick and mr3cushion
HERE IS A QUESTION
a yes or no is THE only answer
do not substitute another name
is efren the greatest 1p player ever in his prime beating everyone else in their prime???
id say yes
dick and mr3cushion
HERE IS A QUESTION
a yes or no is THE only answer
do not substitute another name
is efren the greatest 1p player ever in his prime beating everyone else in their prime???
id say yes
He is, Larry, He knows more about the game from other disciplines than the rest of the TOP players of his time, which helped make Him the BEST! And for sure, if you're talking mainly about tournament play!
But, unfortunately for ALL of us, just like someone said. "One day you're the BIG dog, then you look up and you're the OLD dog!" It's just a fact of life in every sport, evolution of ALL things, come and go!
Larry, every player has a weak link in their game, most players don't know how to capitalize on it to the fullest! The 1 or 2 do that do, will WIN in the long 'ahead' set!
P.S. Larry, this is what civil conversations are about!
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I think Efren has a slight hole in his 1 pocket game. I say slight because when you are talking about the best of the best it really is splitting hairs, but what else do we have to do?
This slight hole that I'm speaking of is his tendency to be too creative. I think he shoots a few too many low probability shots. I think this stems from him learning the game much later in his career than many of the other great 1 pocket players. This, combined with him growing up playing rotation pool, where you have to -- by necessity come with some crazy shots, has created a player that shoots a few too many flyers.
If there's any weakness in his game -- this is it and I have a feeling that some of the past great 1 pocket players could have used this to their advantage. These guys that managed to grind out rack after rack after rack probably had a slightly better gauge on the actual shot percentages than does Efren.
So while I suspect Efren had (and has) more tools in his tool bag than Ronnie Allen did, Ronnie may have been able to keep it close by instinctively understanding the odds just a bit better. Of course I've never seen RA play so I'm just stipulating here -- for fun.
This slight hole that I'm speaking of is his tendency to be too creative. I think he shoots a few too many low probability shots. I think this stems from him learning the game much later in his career than many of the other great 1 pocket players. This, combined with him growing up playing rotation pool, where you have to -- by necessity come with some crazy shots, has created a player that shoots a few too many flyers.
If there's any weakness in his game -- this is it and I have a feeling that some of the past great 1 pocket players could have used this to their advantage. These guys that managed to grind out rack after rack after rack probably had a slightly better gauge on the actual shot percentages than does Efren.
So while I suspect Efren had (and has) more tools in his tool bag than Ronnie Allen did, Ronnie may have been able to keep it close by instinctively understanding the odds just a bit better. Of course I've never seen RA play so I'm just stipulating here -- for fun.
Very good 'stipulating' BD !.. However, I don't think Efren concerned himself with 'odds'...He was good enough to execute almost anything he tried..His ONLY weakness, to this day, remains his 'end game' ! Also, he won at least two of his titles, by the "Efren factor" ! (no jealousy whatsoever, involved here
)By that I mean, normally 'top quality' one pocket player's, went 'brain dead' when playing him !..For instance, when Corey D. needed 1 ball, and Effie needed 4 (for the title) Corey shot 5-6 dead-wrong shots in a row, to lose that game !...I submit, that the average 'B' one pocket player could have 'cinched' that particular game, (99 times out of a 100) even if he were playing God !
SJD--
PS..Given the layout, even "I" could have won that game, (and several that Daulton gave away too)...But I definitely do give Efren credit, for earning the "Efren Factor" !..Hope that makes sense !
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... he won at least two of his titles, by the "Efren factor"
Yup. It exists. And others have it too.
I was playing Parica in a tourney, about 214 people watching. I got up to shoot my first shot, a straight in ball that was about 5" from the pocket. I missed it by about 6"
.When I sat down, my buddy said to me, "he wins a lotta games cz he's Jose Parica". :yikes::thud::yikes:
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This is exactly what I'm referring to. His ability to "execute almost anything" is both a blessing and a curse. Maybe this is why he has a bit of trouble with the end game -- as you put it. He thinks he can execute anything so he loses track of the odds.
His ONLY weakness, to this day, remains his 'end game' ! Also, he won at least two of his titles, by the "Efren factor" ! (no jealousy whatsoever, involved here
By that I mean, normally 'top quality' one pocket player's, went 'brain dead' when playing him !..For instance, when Corey D. needed 1 ball, and Effie needed 4 (for the title) Corey shot 5-6 dead-wrong shots in a row, to lose that game !...I submit, that the average 'B' one pocket player could have 'cinched' that particular game, (99 times out of a 100) even if he were playing God !
SJD--
PS..Given the layout, even "I" could have won that game, (and several that Daulton gave away too)...But I definitely do give Efren credit, for earning the "Efren Factor" !..Hope that makes sense !
I understand what you're saying about the Efren factor too. I see the same principle play out all the time on a much smaller scale. In league play I see guys crumble against a certain local player that they view as the top dog. They miss the easiest shots against him and often times shoot the wrong ball as well.
Thanks for the insight. I'll have to pay closer attention to his end game. Maybe I'll look up that Corey/Efren match.
Here you go BD...(games 6 and 7).. If Corey hadn't pooched his shape running out, there would have been no need for a game 7 ! (did the 'Efren Factor' strike again ?
)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wODlLUWL9qA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbDHOPnXglg
PS...Not trying to belittle anyone's game, but the 'E-factor' is so obvious !..For example, has anyone ever noticed...Cliff Joyner's 'normal' game, drops 1 1/2 to 2 balls when he plays Efren ?..Shannon stands up to him best, he usually out-moves him, and beats him to the shot !...I guess he just plain can't beat him !
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Me like Jay have seen Ronnie play quite alot. I watched him in 1970 play perfect many times, plus he was tough to fade 
! In my opinion he was the best one pocket player of all times for the cash. I think that Artie moved better in the game than anybody ever has or will. Artie also matched up better than anyone also. If Artie played I wanted a piece of his action for sure, he's triple smart.
! In my opinion he was the best one pocket player of all times for the cash. I think that Artie moved better in the game than anybody ever has or will. Artie also matched up better than anyone also. If Artie played I wanted a piece of his action for sure, he's triple smart.
Me like Jay have seen Ronnie play quite alot. I watched him in 1970 play perfect many times, plus he was tough to fade
Bobby; That's what it's ALL about when you go to the post and gamble! It's NOT a popularity contest, it's ALL about getting the 'Cheese!' NO ONE did it better than Artie B. Even when He knew He could ROB 98% of players EVEN! Why do it and 'Knock' your OWN action!
I've always said, "if they lock ANY player in room alone with Artie for a week, He'll come out with ALL the MONEY and they'll be drooling like idiots!"
P.S. Bobby, I think You'll remember me,'Smitty,' from being with 'Michigan City Sam,' I took off that BIG score, ($25.00.00) in 1968 from the Steel magnate from Michigan City! You used to hang out at Sam's bar, Jesse, Canadian Pete and Tommy the Sailor and One Eyed Tony were around there at that time.
BTW, your book is GREAT!
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Me like Jay have seen Ronnie play quite alot. I watched him in 1970 play perfect many times, plus he was tough to fade
Did I misread something ???...I believe Cotton agreed with Jay, when he said, "Ronnie was the best player of all time, for the cash !"..and he should surely know !...Then, as an 'add on', he said.."Artie was the smartest !" Where is the argument ? AB still needed weight from RA, to get a chance to prove how smart he was, didn't he
Amazing, how some people will grasp at any straw, to try and make themselves 'right' !... Too bad Bobby only drops by about once a year ! :sorry:
Did I misread something ???...I believe Cotton agreed with Jay, when he said, "Ronnie was the best player of all time, for the cash !"..and he should surely know !...Then, as an 'add on', he said.."Artie was the smartest !"
Where is the argument? AB needed weight from RA, to get a chance to prove howsmart he was, didn't he
Amazing, how SOME people will grasp at any straw, to try and make themselves 'right' !... Too bad Bobby only drops by about once a year ! :sorry:
You can say that again.
You had to know who RA's stakehorse was to understand the strength of the game he was playing. There were two stakehorses who RA utilized and I don't think he lost very often for them. One was Lennie Moore who beat all the actors playing GIN at the old Friars Club in Hollywood. Jay could probably shed some light on Lennie Moore, anyway RA was pretty tricky when it came to getting the right bet down at the right time with the right stakehorse and as Jay mentioned earlier, RA won millions playing pool. If you want to really understand how good RA played one pocket, it would be pretty hard to explain why he lost and sometimes on purpose, not dumping, but on purpose to stage something later maybe not even with the person he lost to. I don't think anyone except Fats had the ability to plan scores months in advance except RA. Sure he lost and like most pool players he had good days and bad days. He dogged it occasionally and lost straight up. But over the long haul he was the best, in my humble opinion.
This thread is about Frost vs Ronnie and imo their both great players and it would be very difficult to predict who would win, however, when it comes to Reyes there's no comparison. Reyes is the strongest one pocket player in the last 50 plus years..bar none.
There have been people that said that Ronnie was the best cash player of all time, well Ronnie played great for the cash but he was beaten by several of the top players in his era. Taylor beat him and so did Bugs, yes he beat Bugs as well but my point is that he was beatable. Reyes has never been beaten by any top player playing even one pocket, matter of fact Reyes has spotted all the top players and has beaten every one he played. He gave Hopkins 9/8 in NJ and won, Joyner didn't have a chance playing Reyes gettting 8/7 when Joyner was playing his best pool. Joyner is right up there with all the greats when he was in his prime. Reyes gave Steve Cook 10/8 in Tampa where Cook lived and beat him easily. Reyes also gave players like Frost and Corey Deuel 10/7 when they were younger, yes they were not in their prime of life but none the less they were strong players.
Reyes played tournament one pocket better than any one that has ever played the game, six Derby City championships with fields of 300 plus in a race to three:yikes: Are you kidding me!! Dick mentioned that Corey should of beaten Reyes in the U.S. Open three years ago for the title, or a shot to play for the title. Can't argue with him there, however, we're talkin about at that time a 58 year old player. Reyes also beat Shannon in the finals of the Galveston tournament at the age of 56.
When we talk about players the likes of Frost, Allen, Bodendorfer, Joyner Taylor, Metz, imo we're splitting hairs their all playing for second place. I played all the players mentioned with the exception of Taylor and Metz, I have played Reyes many many times..he is clearly the best of all time.
Bill Incardona
There have been people that said that Ronnie was the best cash player of all time, well Ronnie played great for the cash but he was beaten by several of the top players in his era. Taylor beat him and so did Bugs, yes he beat Bugs as well but my point is that he was beatable. Reyes has never been beaten by any top player playing even one pocket, matter of fact Reyes has spotted all the top players and has beaten every one he played. He gave Hopkins 9/8 in NJ and won, Joyner didn't have a chance playing Reyes gettting 8/7 when Joyner was playing his best pool. Joyner is right up there with all the greats when he was in his prime. Reyes gave Steve Cook 10/8 in Tampa where Cook lived and beat him easily. Reyes also gave players like Frost and Corey Deuel 10/7 when they were younger, yes they were not in their prime of life but none the less they were strong players.
Reyes played tournament one pocket better than any one that has ever played the game, six Derby City championships with fields of 300 plus in a race to three:yikes: Are you kidding me!! Dick mentioned that Corey should of beaten Reyes in the U.S. Open three years ago for the title, or a shot to play for the title. Can't argue with him there, however, we're talkin about at that time a 58 year old player. Reyes also beat Shannon in the finals of the Galveston tournament at the age of 56.
When we talk about players the likes of Frost, Allen, Bodendorfer, Joyner Taylor, Metz, imo we're splitting hairs their all playing for second place. I played all the players mentioned with the exception of Taylor and Metz, I have played Reyes many many times..he is clearly the best of all time.
Bill Incardona