Shaft Quality?

Cuemaster98

Cuemaster98

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just wondering how selective a cue builder should be when selecting shaft quality?

I mean if you have to build a cue that is going to sell for $300 to $400 range vs $1000 plus would your shaft selection and criteria changes?

Looking at the various work of cue builders, I have always known that superior shaft quality selection are what separate the good from the best. So, how important is shaft quality tied to a cue builder reputation? Should you always use shaft that meet your high quality?

I just pick up a nice Robinson cue...his lower end cue but it has two amazing curly shafts that just played awesome. I also seen 6K cues with shafts that I would consider not been close to good quality shaft wood...no where near the quality of these shafts. Personally, when I buy cues...the first thing I look at is the quality of the shaft...especially if is straight.

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Another thing....does anyone know where I can get custom shaft adaptor made? Something similar to the one that bill stroud made for his universal shaft but for regular shafts. I thought this was great idea but it never seem to have catch on.
 
my criteria never changes except on j/b cues.i will use lower rpi shafts on them.i usually have 10 rpi as a min for my playing cues but i will go as low as 6-7 for my j/b cues.

i don't think anything is wrong at all with the lower rpi shafts but i know most customers look for high rpi shafts.it seems that somewhere along the line people started believing that for a shaft to be good it must have 20 rpi which is untrue.
 
I rarely put anything under 15 growth rings on my cues, but since I sell wood I can pick two or three really nice ones out of a 100 shafts. But here is what most of my customers do when buying partially tapered shafts. Those building cues under about $400 or $500 usually buy by my #1.5 grade shafts. The ones building cues that will be $600 up usually buy my #1 shafts. The exception is a few customers buy my tight grain #1.5 shafts for even their high end cues. They feel the tighter grain stiffer hit is worth sacrificing a little in the looks department for.
 
masonh said:
it seems that somewhere along the line people started believing that for a shaft to be good it must have 20 rpi which is untrue.
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TAP TAP....yeap, 8-19 rpi are now junk, 20 or more or they are Crap.....Yeah right. funny how people talk about how great szamboti, buska, shafts are, and I've never touch one with more than 10 rpi, and yes I've probly held 10 buskas, hit with 3, and countless boti's, and only two I couldn't hit with. quit a few even had runout, which is a major reason to believe in seasoning wood.

B/j's, and jump cues get lower end shafts, $300-400 dollar cues get better 6-8 rpi, and it goes up from there. lot's of different grading scales for shafts, weight is a big one, color, rpi. I have one shaft right now that has more than 30 rpi and is heavy, and white as a ghost, I think to say this shaft will be better than a shaft with 15 rpi and white, is in the eye of the beholder, and if the buyer is in the know about ring count and shaft quality.

If a customer is ordering a $375 sneaky, and want's the best shaft/shafts I have avalible, then the price goes up a bit, shafts are comodity and are priced as such. If a customer is buying a $1500 eight pointer, then he doesn't even have to ask for a shaft up grade he gets one.
 
RFisher said:
TAP TAP....yeap, 8-19 rpi are now junk, 20 or more or they are Crap.....Yeah right. funny how people talk about how great szamboti, buska, shafts are, and I've never touch one with more than 10 rpi, and yes I've probly held 10 buskas, hit with 3, and countless boti's, and only two I couldn't hit with. quit a few even had runout, which is a major reason to believe in seasoning wood.

B/j's, and jump cues get lower end shafts, $300-400 dollar cues get better 6-8 rpi, and it goes up from there. lot's of different grading scales for shafts, weight is a big one, color, rpi. I have one shaft right now that has more than 30 rpi and is heavy, and white as a ghost, I think to say this shaft will be better than a shaft with 15 rpi and white, is in the eye of the beholder, and if the buyer is in the know about ring count and shaft quality.

If a customer is ordering a $375 sneaky, and want's the best shaft/shafts I have avalible, then the price goes up a bit, shafts are comodity and are priced as such. If a customer is buying a $1500 eight pointer, then he doesn't even have to ask for a shaft up grade he gets one.
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Thanks guys.

I think there are other qualities of a shaft that more important than RPI. Check the shaft on this robinson more closely and you notice that shaft one only have less than 5 RPI but it curly and the grain is near perfect. I don't care for high RPI but it just one factor to consider if the grain are straight.

Has anyone done a conclusive test on these various factors? I've always believe that the true secret to the holy grail of cue playability lies in the selection of shaft quality. But I'm also reminded of shafts that doesn't fit most of my criteria that just play light out:) I'm sure some of the builders have done these tests before settling on what they look for in their shaft....is this true?

Well, I'm thinking of doing this experiment for myself, so please let me know if this will work?

1) I will have various shafts with different properties in the following categories:

a) Weight (light, medium, heavy)
b) straightness of grain (straight, medium, not straight)
c) Ring count (low, medium, high)
d) grain type (Curly/ fiddleback, straight, Not tight vs tight vertical grain)
e) Tone (low pitch, high pitch)

Put these categories in a matrix and we should have 3x3x3x3x2 = we should have 162 different combination of shafts. WOW..hope my permutation is correct....will any cue builders like to donate some shafts with one of these combination for my experiment. :smile: If this is true in term of various factors that should be consider for shafts, how the heck does a cue builder make their cue play so consistent????

Ok...last thing....each shaft will be 13mm, same taper hopefully, same ferrule, same tip and will have same joint type 3/8-10. Only variable that is missing is the aging time of these shaft before cutting (I'm told that a big variable). Finally, testing will be done on a full splice butt.

Probably need a machine to test spin, distance, and tone or feel.

Phew...ok is this experiment worth it or viable? I would think someone with a CNC machine could do this with the variation.

Regards,
Duc.
 
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Ok, here's my 2 combination that I think will make a great shaft:

a) Weight (light, medium, heavy)
b) straightness of grain (straight)
c) Ring count (low, medium, high)
d) grain type (Curly/ fiddleback, straight, tight vertical grain)
e) Tone (low pitch, high pitch)

Shaft 2:

a) Weight (light, medium, heavy)
b) straightness of grain (straight, medium, not straight)
c) Ring count (low, medium, high)
d) grain type (Curly/ fiddleback)
e) Tone (low pitch, high pitch)

My best playing shaft have these qualities:

209240096_o.jpg

Shaft with the Joel Weinstock.

a) Weight (medium 4.2 oz with inser)
b) straightness of grain (perfectly straight)
c) Ring count (medium (8-10)
d) grain type (a bit of curly and straight)
e) Tone (high pitch)

My other really nice shaft from a Falcon Cue:

a) Weight (medium 3.9 oz with insert)
b) straightness of grain (medium)
c) Ring count (Medium (over 10)
d) grain type (Lots of Curly)
e) Tone (low pitch)

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Here's a Skip Weston:
184370474_o.jpg

a) Weight (Heavy: 4.05oz)
b) straightness of grain (Medium straight)
c) Ring count (medium14-15)
d) grain type (Curly and straight with very tight vertical grain)
e) Tone (high pitch) with ivory ferrule and my hard Molavia tip this shaft play like a driving an automatic shift gear.

184370516_o.jpg

a) Weight (Heavy: 4.12oz)
b) straightness of grain (Medium straight)
c) Ring count (medium 12-14)
d) grain type (Curly and straight with very tight vertical grain)
e) Tone (high pitch) with ivory ferrule and my hard Molavia tip this shaft play like a driving an automatic shift gear.

2 amazing shafts.
 
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Shaft grade will depend on cost of cue, and/or request of buyer. That said, even my lower end cues have shafts that would be considered high grade. But the way I choose shafts is for playability, not looks.
 
Tap...Tap,...

qbilder said:
Shaft grade will depend on cost of cue, and/or request of buyer. That said, even my lower end cues have shafts that would be considered high grade. But the way I choose shafts is for playability, not looks.
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Good one...:)
 
There are quite a few people making OR ASSEMBLING, pool cues these days. If I were just starting out these days, I would use the BEST of all components,in my cues. You only have one chance to make a 1st impression on the pool playing public. If a guy buys a $250 cue & you don't have a well known name, as a cue maker...you had better spend a few dollars more & send him off telling everyone, what a great cue you make. Believe me, it will pay for itself in good publicity...JER
 
Ring count

IMHO, I think that the "regularity" of the ring spacing is more important than the count. Whether it's 8 or 20 rpi, I like the spacing of the rings to be as near equal as possible.
 
Bill the Cat said:
IMHO, I think that the "regularity" of the ring spacing is more important than the count. Whether it's 8 or 20 rpi, I like the spacing of the rings to be as near equal as possible.
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Yes, I would agree with that as well...the Joel Weinstock shaft has this quality as well (you can probably tell from the pic)...only 8-10 but they are evenly spaced. I had a SW shaft that was made in the early 80 that had this quality and it play great.
 
qbilder said:
Shaft grade will depend on cost of cue, and/or request of buyer. That said, even my lower end cues have shafts that would be considered high grade. But the way I choose shafts is for playability, not looks.
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I thought that's how all the cue builders select their shafts :). So, have any one attempted any experiments with these qualities to validate their effects on playability? I would think that all the top builders must have done this test to some extent to decide on what they think is the right formula that will produce quality hit from their shaft. (Taper and wood seasoning schedule aside)

Oh, does anyone have any feedback on birdeye shaft? I had one that didn't play to nice but it looks great.

Thanks for the feedbacks so far.
Duc.
 
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Oh, does anyone have any feedback on birdeye shaft? I had one that didn't play to nice but it looks great.

Thanks for the feedbacks so far.
Duc.[/QUOTE]


Depends on the density of the wood, I have had some that are light weight 3.5oz and hit ok but not Killer, I have some right now that are on a cue we're building that are so dense, I'm thinking they are going to weigh about 5oz. :eek:
 
Besides what has already been said IMO:

1. An excellent quality shaft will not compensate for a weak forearm.

2. No matter how good the shaftwood, it still needs to have a "good" taper. Some shaftwood can be too good for the taper it has!

3. Almost all the cuemakers and cue nuts I know (myself included) get sucked into the nonsense of shaftwood! :grin-square:

4. There is plenty of really good shaftwood available today, especially for those willing to pay the going rate.

6. Many factors come together in grading shafts and sometimes there are tradeoffs. IMO, straightness of grain is the most critical factor. Thuddy dowels aren't worth turning. High figure curl in shaftwood is usually not a good thing from a performance standpoint.


Martin
shameless collector of holy grail hard maple shaftwood




Cuemaster98 said:
Just wondering how selective a cue builder should be when selecting shaft quality?

I mean if you have to build a cue that is going to sell for $300 to $400 range vs $1000 plus would your shaft selection and criteria changes?

Looking at the various work of cue builders, I have always known that superior shaft quality selection are what separate the good from the best. So, how important is shaft quality tied to a cue builder reputation? Should you always use shaft that meet your high quality?

I just pick up a nice Robinson cue...his lower end cue but it has two amazing curly shafts that just played awesome. I also seen 6K cues with shafts that I would consider not been close to good quality shaft wood...no where near the quality of these shafts. Personally, when I buy cues...the first thing I look at is the quality of the shaft...especially if is straight.

218164634_o.jpg
Click to expand...
 
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Truth is, all the best visual indications of great wood are the same things builders work hard to avoid. Sugar means a healthy tree. Mineral stain means the soil was nutritious. Brown & ugly yellow means old or heartwood. Ironically, builders want white, clean, defect free shaft wood. This all indicates sapwood, which is the absolute youngest & least stable part of the tree except for the pith or core rot.

As for me, I prefer a shaft with color, sugar, & hundreds of thousands of microscopic birdseyes that give a metallic flake effect. Most builders & players have never even seen wood like this. Probably because suppliers won't sell it, they throw it away.

I could lay it all out detail by detail how to choose good shaft wood & where to get it. But it would fall on deaf ears. Nobody would do anything with it. Everybody is so brainwashed into white, clean sapwood that the truth is now too far fetched. It's from years of BS & lies from merketing. Heck, there are so many builders who get pissed off when they get shaft stock with suger lines that I just giggle inside. Most of the best shafts get trashed because of color or sugar defect, or the builder will only use perfectly straight & tight grain wood. So many builders accept the predetermined stereotype of what makes a good shaft that they never step out of those bounderies to find out for themselves. They'll even argue about good wood or bad wood & they don't actually have a clue. They have petty spats about "i got run-off in my dowels", or "the gpi wasn't high enough to be A+". But they have never cut & used a shaft full of those thin brown squiggly sugar lines, because it's ugly & "poor quality". They like grading shafts by letters to indicate how it looks instead of by structural integrity. Then I still hear every one of them claim to build cues with playability the number one priority. How friggin ironic is that? So no, there's no purpose to write out the criteria for picking good shafts. A few builders know, a lot do not, but it's not rocket science. It's getting off your horse ass & learning through experience & experimentaion. Then educate the buyers so they feel lucky instead cheated when they get an ugly shaft. Sorry to sound so crude. I don't actually care what anybody else does. I just get a humor kick out of the irony of every builder claiming playability as number one priority & then choosing shaft wood by how nice & perfect it looks.
 
qbilder said:
Truth is, all the best visual indications of great wood are the same things builders work hard to avoid. Sugar means a healthy tree. Mineral stain means the soil was nutritious. Brown & ugly yellow means old or heartwood. Ironically, builders want white, clean, defect free shaft wood. This all indicates sapwood, which is the absolute youngest & least stable part of the tree except for the pith or core rot.

As for me, I prefer a shaft with color, sugar, & hundreds of thousands of microscopic birdseyes that give a metallic flake effect. Most builders & players have never even seen wood like this. Probably because suppliers won't sell it, they throw it away.

I could lay it all out detail by detail how to choose good shaft wood & where to get it. But it would fall on deaf ears. Nobody would do anything with it. Everybody is so brainwashed into white, clean sapwood that the truth is now too far fetched. It's from years of BS & lies from merketing. Heck, there are so many builders who get pissed off when they get shaft stock with suger lines that I just giggle inside. Most of the best shafts get trashed because of color or sugar defect, or the builder will only use perfectly straight & tight grain wood. So many builders accept the predetermined stereotype of what makes a good shaft that they never step out of those bounderies to find out for themselves. They'll even argue about good wood or bad wood & they don't actually have a clue. They have petty spats about "i got run-off in my dowels", or "the gpi wasn't high enough to be A+". But they have never cut & used a shaft full of those thin brown squiggly sugar lines, because it's ugly & "poor quality". They like grading shafts by letters to indicate how it looks instead of by structural integrity. Then I still hear every one of them claim to build cues with playability the number one priority. How friggin ironic is that? So no, there's no purpose to write out the criteria for picking good shafts. A few builders know, a lot do not, but it's not rocket science. It's getting off your horse ass & learning through experience & experimentaion. Then educate the buyers so they feel lucky instead cheated when they get an ugly shaft. Sorry to sound so crude. I don't actually care what anybody else does. I just get a humor kick out of the irony of every builder claiming playability as number one priority & then choosing shaft wood by how nice & perfect it looks.
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TAP,TAP,TAP.......Dave
 
Ok Guys...how about these shafts? They are perfect in every other ways as far as quality go but there are a few big dark spot of sugar mark i think on them. I think these shafts will play awesome...the grain extremely striaght and evenly space. Once has low RPI and the other has about 15 RPI..the shafts are very clean...about 3-4 pass from finish. I personally don't think the dark mark will affect sighting but I shown guys these shaft and they tell me it's pretty much garbage which I of course disagree but they say no cuemaker will use these. I think I will use these for building one of my personal cue to test and see if the dark mark has any effect on playability. What do you think :)??

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^Bottom one looks very wide grained.
I think the top one will have a higher tone and be stiffer.
 
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