Shooting off the rail

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
Not gonna lie. There was a lot to like about that video.

What other instructionals does this guy have? I learned several nifty things on there.

Big kudos to Jay on his tip as well. I can't wait to go home to try it out.

fathomblue:

That's Pat Fleming, the brilliant mind behind Accu-Stats. A great player, and just a super person as well. He's got a great camera "presence" as you can see.

The following query should give you a list of products where Pat has either instructed or else commentated in:

http://1vshop.com/Accu-Stats/store....words=fleming&imageField.x=67&imageField.y=11

Hope this helps!
-Sean
 

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
poolguy4u...The only flaw in your thinking is this...when the CB is frozen on the rail, you're striking the CB with the bottom edge of the tip...not the center. As such, it doesn't matter what size tip you play with. A good stroke will not result in a miscue.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

With a smaller tip, the center of the tip is closer to the center of the cue ball. Might seem like a little bit but it makes a big difference.

You will also see more of the cue ball with a small tip.
 

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
While many players lift the cue off of their bridge hand, when shooting this type of shot, that is a result to too much grip pressure. I say again, for the HUGE majority of poolplayers, pressing the cue down on the rail is a BAD idea, and totally unnecessary.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Try downward pressure on the cue when stroking thru the ball. Players have a tendancy to lift the cue up while following thru the shot. Look up the Creative Edge on youtube, Pat Fleming addresses this in the video, It works
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXhnGwL6aBY
7:19 of the video
You couldnt ask for a better teacher
 

poolguy4u

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
poolguy4u...The only flaw in your thinking is this...when the CB is frozen on the rail, you're striking the CB with the bottom edge of the tip...not the center. As such, it doesn't matter what size tip you play with. A good stroke will not result in a miscue.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com


No flaw here...maybe you never tried it?:confused:
 

genomachino

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What I teach really helps this greatly.

What the hell is the secret? I'm ok at it but not as good as I want to be especially with long shots where the cue ball is against the rail. I watched Jimmy Reid's videos and he says don't ever stop you backswing but when i do that I miss every time. I know practice will cure all just wanted to know if there is something someone does that helps. thanks !

Hi there Houster,

When the cue ball is on the rail and you are shooting a shot there is an optical illusion that is created because of the terrain.

You really need the eyes in the correct position, exactly Perfect , or your not getting the best chance to make this ball.

I offer these free phone lessons on the forum all the time. Give me a call. I will increase you pocketing skills on these shots by 50% in about 15 minutes on the phone.

If you see the shots correctly and it looks good it will probably go in the hole more than not. If it looks not quite right chances are slim to none.

Give me a call. it's free. Looking forward to helping you.

Geno 715-563-8712
 

3andstop

Focus
Silver Member
I'd like to add my 2 cents :) Every shot, every time we set up and stroke requires precision.

The reason most of us are not better is because there are tiny flaws in our stance, delivery, timing, eye movements, grip, consistency, etc, etc. Not to mention, focus, concentration, confidence, clear mental picture of the entire shot and the sounds of the shot, including the path of the CB, etc, etc.

We get away with a lot of shots without sometimes even realizing something was wrong in our execution because the shot may have been more forgiving than the long off the rail variety.

Shooting off the rail on a long shot is simply another shot. However, it is one of those shots that magnifies the need for preciseness of everything I mentioned and probably many more things.

Practicing of course is necessary, the catch 22 is continued practice of any one of the above things incorrectly, screws up the rest of them.

The correct combination is different for each and every one of us. Finding the correct combination is like assembling a complicated puzzle that includes a ton of pieces from puzzles that don't even fit in the one we are trying to put together.

Falling into one particular facet correctly turns the light bulb on, but ... initially it requires us to consciously remember our important find.

Unfortunately, this detracts from our focus, concentration and even some of our other mechanical execution.

So, what should we do? Go Bowling. No .. .just kidding :) Don't keep practicing the same thing over and over that isn't working. Keep an open mind, remember we all react differently to different techniques and finding what we need to do is a very delicate and complicated task.

The long shot just magnifies what we are already doing wrong.

Practice feeling comfortable shooting off the rail across the table rather than up and down its length. I know you probably can do this with no problem, the thing is to become sensitive to the tiny uncomfortable feeling you experience while doing it and try to change things to eliminate them. Be super aware of anything that doesn't feel perfect.

For me, I shoot these pretty good, but I enjoy straight pool and that's often the first shot in the game. I like to envision 2 imaginary laser lines. One from CB to OB and one from OB to pocket.

Once set, I keep my eye on the OB. The long distance between the two balls will really screw my focus up if I shift back and forth. Then I cover the imaginary line from the CB to the OB with the shaft of my cue as I stroke through the ball.

I don't wanna get into what part of the shaft I aim with, cause .... ya know ... :)
 
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duckie

GregH
Silver Member
The problem with all this "boiler plate" type answers is that there is no one "boiler plate" type of on the rail shot.

When discussing these type of shots, a picture of the shot you have in mind would be a great aid in getting the best answer. With the way the question is worded, you will get these boiler plate type of answers.

Take this real world pic. Just imagine that the CB is on the rail.

Are you really gonna aim at the rail like was suggested? Does the does the size of the tip really matter? How bout downward pressure as you stroke?

The real key to shooting off the rail is the same as any other shot. Using the right amount of cue stick speed and practice. What I see is that some people do not have the ability to finely control the speed of their stroke. Little change in the cue stick speed can make the difference of making the shot or not.

Learn to control your cue stick speed and a whole new world of shots will be before you.
 
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CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my hero's
Silver Member
I'd like to add my 2 cents :) Every shot, every time we set up and stroke requires precision.

The reason most of us are not better is because there are tiny flaws in our stance, delivery, timing, eye movements, grip, consistency, etc, etc. Not to mention, focus, concentration, confidence, clear mental picture of the entire shot and the sounds of the shot, including the path of the CB, etc, etc.

Think many times if we put the effort a Nuro Surgeon uses to cut out a CANCEROUS TUMOR, the Size of a BB Shot in someone's Brain without damaging the surrounding tissue. We would be more successful at POOL.
 

mmwtdh

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Listen up kids, when shooting at the cue ball on the rail, aim for the center axis of the cue ball and at the rail about a quarter of an inch BEHIND the cue ball. Yes I said aim at the rail directly behind the cue ball. You will NOT miscue and you WILL make a good hit! This one is not in any book yet :wink:.

Read this from you a couple of years ago, probably the best tip I ever got on this site.

Works very well for me.........
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
The problem with all this "boiler plate" type answers is that there is no one "boiler plate" type of on the rail shot.

When discussing these type of shots, a picture of the shot you have in mind would be a great aid in getting the best answer. With the way the question is worded, you will get these boiler plate type of answers.

Take this real world pic. Just imagine that the CB is on the rail.

Are you really gonna aim at the rail like was suggested? Does the does the size of the tip really matter? How bout downward pressure as you stroke?

The real key to shooting off the rail is the same as any other shot. Using the right amount of cue stick speed and practice. What I see is that some people do not have the ability to finely control the speed of their stroke. Little change in the cue stick speed can make the difference of making the shot or not.

Learn to control your cue stick speed and a whole new world of shots will be before you.

Just curious-

What does your picture have to do with controlling stroke speed? Are you suggesting stroke speed is more important than hitting the center of the CB or keeping a level (as possible) cue for rail shots?

You just dug up a random exception to the level cue part -- but are you suggesting stroke speed is the real answer to rail shots?

I'd suggest stroke speed doesn't matter if you strike the center of the CB and stroke straight. Stroke speed is determined by the required outcome of the CB more than ball pocketing.

Back to the topic of the thread.....if this were the AZB Family Feud and Richard Dawson were rubbing up on my mom while I was up.......

SURVEY SAYS............
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<<STROKE THROUGH THE TRUE CENTER (VERTICAL AXIS) OF THE CB TO MAKE RAIL SHOTS>>

(#1 Answer)

DING! DING! DING!
 

ignomirello

Tony IGGY
Silver Member
How do you hit dead center off a rail?

I think this gets closest to the reason rail shots are hard: if you hit a tiny bit offcenter on the CB it will curve a lot (because you're hitting downward on it, causing "masse" spin).

In other words be sure you hit the CB dead center, even if that means you have to look at while hitting it.

pj
chgo

How do you hit dead center off a rail? The rail covers center ball.
 

cmsmith9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was taught two things about shooting off the rail and they seem to always have worked for me. One is, as you strike the cue ball, do not extend your shaft further than where the cue ball lies. So in other words, short stroke. The other is to shoot into the rail, like dig into the felt. Not to the point where it causes to miscue, but enough to grab more of the ball.

Christian
 

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
The problem with all this "boiler plate" type answers is that there is no one "boiler plate" type of on the rail shot.

Translation: there's no "one size fits all" solution for every single type of on-the-rail shot.

We know that, duckie. I would think that anyone with any semblance of intelligence would be able to divine the fact that certain situations call for certain customizations to adapt to that custom situation.

"On the rail" shots are just one of many that fit this description. I don't know why you keep banging that drum.

When discussing these type of shots, a picture of the shot you have in mind would be a great aid in getting the best answer. With the way the question is worded, you will get these boiler plate type of answers.

More percussion coming from that "you need to adapt" drum.

Take this real world pic. Just imagine that the CB is on the rail.

Are you really gonna aim at the rail like was suggested?
Does the does the size of the tip really matter? How bout downward pressure as you stroke?

Why yes, actually, I would! (Aim downward at the rail, that is.) The angle you show is not that big of an angle whereby it would "skew" the delivery of the tip into the ball. The key -- as Jay and many others have already succinctly described well before you -- is to make sure you hit the center vertical axis of the cue ball. Aiming at the cushion [immediately in front of where the nose of the cushion meets the white surface of the cue ball] is an aid to make sure you hit as low as possible on what little bit of the cue ball is exposed above the nose of the cushion. It's a great tip from Jay, and no, the cue tip won't "bounce off of" the cushion surface, either. Rather, if you want analogies, the cue's tip touching the cushion surface is roughtly analogous to an airplane "touching down" on the runway, where any vertical descent is halted, but forward motion continues in a guided way on this "stable ground."

The real key to shooting off the rail is the same as any other shot. Using the right amount of cue stick speed and practice.

While I agree with the practice part (wholeheartedly), I don't agree with your "speed of the cue" notion. I determine what speed to apply to the cue ball by where I want the cue ball to be after the object ball is pocketed. Sometimes that may be a firm stroke -- where the cue ball follows after impact with the object ball. Sometimes that may be a soft "lag" stroke if I don't want the cue ball to travel too far after impact with the object ball. The notion of speed in these "on the rail" shots is 100% tied to what you want the cue ball to do. Not whether the "shot goes" or not.

What I see is that some people do not have the ability to finely control the speed of their stroke. Little change in the cue stick speed can make the difference of making the shot or not.

Learn to control your cue stick speed and a whole new world of shots will be before you.

Nope, I disagree. Here again, you are being authoritative about something that I dare say you yourself -- as a professed skill-level 5 -- are still thinking/postulating about, but don't have the execution skills to back up.

An accurate delivery of the cue to a cue ball against the rail can be done *at any speed*. It's not the speed of the cue that determines whether that on-the-rail shot goes or not. It's the delivery accuracy that does.

If you are using "speed" to determine whether an on-the-rail shot goes, I will pointedly say you have accuracy problems with your cue delivery at certain speeds. Take a little bit of your own advice -- practice.

-Sean
 

Houstoer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hi there Houster,

When the cue ball is on the rail and you are shooting a shot there is an optical illusion that is created because of the terrain.

You really need the eyes in the correct position, exactly Perfect , or your not getting the best chance to make this ball.

I offer these free phone lessons on the forum all the time. Give me a call. I will increase you pocketing skills on these shots by 50% in about 15 minutes on the phone.

If you see the shots correctly and it looks good it will probably go in the hole more than not. If it looks not quite right chances are slim to none.

Give me a call. it's free. Looking forward to helping you.

Geno 715-563-8712

Geno thanks very much; have done the phone lessons with you; have reviewed the dvd and both have helped. Would love to do maybe a followup phone lesson if that is something you don't mind.. thanks again.
 

MOJOE

Work Hard, Be Humble. jbk
Silver Member
The downward pressure thing has worked with me for years as well.. I don't even know where I got this info but once I learned it, rail shots are not an issue any longer for me.. This is one area where I would disagree with those that teach keep a loose grip and no pressure on this type of shot.. JMHO
 

Matt

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just try it Matt and let me know what you think. Shoot at the center line of the cue ball, aiming rail first to hit it. Yes, you will brush the rail on this stroke!
Thanks Jay! I gave this a try last night and was surprised how well it works.

For those that are thinking this seems like a strange thing to do while picturing it in your mind, you really need to go to a pool table and try it to see how it works. The slope of the rail towards the bed of the table means that you're not really jamming the tip of the cue into the rail; it's more like the tip is sliding down the rail just a little bit to make contact with the lowest point possible on the cue ball.

I think the advantage of this technique is that it makes it really tough to miscue, so you can focus on aiming the shot.
 

OneIron

On the snap, Vinny!
Silver Member
Good luck shooting a level cue off the rail. It's what I call "unpossible." Pool isn't hard, people just make it that way. Shooting off the rail is no different than jacking up over a ball, the bridge is just different due to the base of the bridge being higher. Practice.

I disagree. You can shoot with an almost dead level cue if you have a good tip and keep the tip as close to the rail as possible, even brushing it. I've been doing it his way for longer than I care to admit. :cool:
 
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