Short stops

[Jaden]

In New york we define a shortstop as a strong open player.

This is a high caliber player, not allowed to play in A-D rated events. (so obviously better than an A+)

Shortstop is a term that fills the gap between A+ and pro players.

An average pro (not world class elite like thorsten, Busta or Archer) would be a Santos, putnam, Schmidt, Charlie williams etc (granted, an average pro can defeat anyone in the world at any given time, but "elite" pro's often finish higher in tournaments) and they would give the shortstop weight.

So, average pro's, straight up, would steal from "open" or "shortstop" players. The longer the races, the less chance they have.

Most shortstops would need the 7 to play with the average pro, imho.

RG

PS; the term shortstop is "kinda" derogatory though, meant to say your not good enough to be a pro. It's best to call someone an open player

I don't think that anyone would classify Morro, or Ismael Paez as a shortstop or an A+, but he plays in our local rated tournies all the time, at least he did when I was there. So I don't think the whole not allowed to play in A-D tournies really flies.

 

[breakup]

One other factor of a shortstop that has not been discussed thus far is that of character. I have always thought that a shortstop is not only a player with a high degree of skill but also a tough player with a grittiness to him. The intense desire to win is ever present. Two local players that are polar opposites of this illustrate my point.

Player “A” has a 14.1 high run of >250 is a threat to do anything anytime on a pool table. But if you look up nit in the dictionary you see his picture. He won’t bet his own money on anything more risky that clubbing baby seals. Is subject to emotional meltdown and quitting in the middle of a match or forfeiting for bogus reasons. No one around here ever referred to him as a “shortstop”

Now player “B” is the epitome of a player with heart. He would match up with anyone and be able to dig down and make amazing things happen when coming from behind. In fact he had a match with Earthquake in Reno about 10 years ago. Race to 4 onepocket (Tournament) Keith has him 3-0 and case ball in his jaws. Player “B” digs that ball out and gets out that game, claws his way back to 3-3 and the last game gets down to one ball left. Keith gets the match but that type of will to win and character to me is what defines a shortstop. When Ernesto came to town Player “B” was the one matching up. Not player “A”

 

[SPINTHEBALL]

Yeah, that Morro,he's sportin' a McD too.

 

[Nostroke]

If this has been said before -sorry.

I think the term came from road players saying they were just going to do a 'short stop' at a pool room or to play someone as that would be all that is necessary to separate the player from his cash

As with most derivations of these type-there are probably competing theories.

 

[Williebetmore]

OK then, based on the new definition of short stop, we probably have over a dozen and that answers my question. Lots of those around.

Rack-girl,
I guess I would have to disagree that there is any "new definition" of shortstop. I would also have to say there is obviously still widespread regional disagreement of what makes a shortstop. Until Funk & Wagnalls gets involved, we will just have to agree to disagree.

It would be great if there was an objective way to define it - and there is - so here is my definition. A shortstop is a player who, on his own turf will play a top 100 pro on his own money, and not just for nominal stakes. This will properly exclude thousands of would-be shortstops, and give pride to excellent players like TheOne and Paul Potier who have been labelled by some as shortstops. In addition, if you can make a good living at pool alone (without a "real job"), then you are NOT a shortstop.

Signed,
Shortstop in Training

P.S. - Buddy Hall was asked at a tournament by a young boy if he had ever had a "real job". Buddy replied, " Well, I've been offered real jobs, but I've learned to just say no."

 

[Jaden]

If shortstop is a classification.

If shortstop is a classification for level of play, then betting your own money should have no part in it.

If it's just a definition, then there needs to be a concensus as to what that definition is.

Shit, I know lots of people that are barely above A level who would play top 100 players on their own money, (not nominal amounts) just because they have money to burn and would like the memory of playing a top player.

If you mean instead that they'll play top 100 pros on their own money without a spot? then that will exclude a lot of top notch players who always like to have an edge and won't play a top pro without it because they know they can get it.

This is probably the most oftenly confused term in pool.

In all liklihood it originated from road top notch road hustlers who would take a short stop to clean up and make some money.

It seems that it has become a classification level though that is somewhere between top amateur and pro.

 

[Matt_24]

I've always understood a shortstop to be a strong local player who is willing to bet it up. For a professional hustler/gambler...this would be the person they would come to play. They're not strong enough to play the hustler even, but should they make the game right -- don't have to lose either. They are just a "short stop" to the next location.

It is a mixed classification of playing ability, and willingness to bet the cash.

 

[Chilifide]

Tommy has at least 10 cashes in the last 2 years other than his own tour. He's finished 2nd in at least two Florida Pro Stops, I saw him beat Charlie Bryant in the semi's then loose to Hohmann in the finals last year. He's recently finished ahead of guys like Earl, Mika, Rodney, Charlie Williams, Troy Frank, Buddy Hall, and Tony Crosby. Here's a link http://www.azbilliards.com/thepros/2000showplayer2005.cfm?playernum=77
--Steve

 

[uwate]

Although I 100% agree that Santos IS NOT a shortstop but a player but I cant say the same for TK. Yes he won the US Open and that brought him a large amount of respect he earned, but what has won lately? His own tour stops full of dead money with the exception of a couple of "shortstops"? I aint knockin the guy, he has a great thing going but can you really put him in PLAYER status?

Steve I get exactly what you are saying. TK has been working his own tour for some time now and it looks to be consuming all the available time he has to play pool.

The US Open is such an elite event, with a 256 bracket of world beaters every year, that in my mind, ANYONE who has won the US Open is forever classified as a Player and not a shortstop.

 

[Nostroke]

Steve I get exactly what you are saying. TK has been working his own tour for some time now and it looks to be consuming all the available time he has to play pool.

The US Open is such an elite event, with a 256 bracket of world beaters every year, that in my mind, ANYONE who has won the US Open is forever classified as a Player and not a shortstop.

I doubt it was 256 bracket when Tommy won it- Im not saying he is a shortstop though- but im guessing it was 64 player bracket at the time- maybe 128. Anyone know?

 

[hemicudas]

No, there are whole states without a short stop, by the definition I was given. There are only 4-6 here in WA and there are LOTS of towns. Those 4 are Dan Louie, Glen Atwell, Mike Zimmerman, and then there is a toss up for 4th between Rich Geiler, Raul Abenojar, and John Doherty.

Dan Louie,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,A SHORT STOP?????????? Who in the hell thinks that?

Dan Louie beat Buddy Hall playing dead even on the big table. GIVE ME A BREAK.

 

[Shorty]

Dan Louie,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,A SHORT STOP?????????? Who in the hell thinks that?

Dan Louie beat Buddy Hall playing dead even on the big table. GIVE ME A BREAK.

$Bill....I know...I know...just step away from the computer...

You have to realize that a good percentage of the people here don't have what I call "real" pool knowledge. They are merely bangers or spectators. They have not gambled nor experienced the game to the level some of us have. By that I don't mean they have not played pool for money...they may have...but have they truly been against the nuts and walked away winner?

I get told to shut up alot on here I know...but I damn well know what a shortstop is in my mind, and that's good enough for me.

JMHO as my buddy $Bill says,
Shorty

 

[ironman]

$bill

Dan Louie,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,A SHORT STOP?????????? Who in the hell thinks that?

Dan Louie beat Buddy Hall playing dead even on the big table. GIVE ME A BREAK.

Don't even try it $Bill. All day, they have been trying to put a round peg in a square hole. What nobody has figure out, is that it has been a term used since Moby Dick was a Guppie and it was meant to say, that the fellow just ain't got it.

 

[rackmsuckr]

Dan Louie,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,A SHORT STOP?????????? Who in the hell thinks that?

Dan Louie beat Buddy Hall playing dead even on the big table. GIVE ME A BREAK.

Please read my original post or the whole thread. We don't use the term short stop here. It is only D through A+ then pro. At Danny's current level, compared to the other names that were given to me at the time such as Santos, Potier and Kennedy, that was how I made that determination. Trust me, I think all these guys are world beaters.

FYI - I talked to Danny this weekend and it was not a 9 footer but an 8 foot bar box he played Buddy on, both sets.

 

[rackmsuckr]

$Bill....I know...I know...just step away from the computer...

You have to realize that a good percentage of the people here don't have what I call "real" pool knowledge. They are merely bangers or spectators. They have not gambled nor experienced the game to the level some of us have. By that I don't mean they have not played pool for money...they may have...but have they truly been against the nuts and walked away winner?

I get told to shut up alot on here I know...but I damn well know what a shortstop is in my mind, and that's good enough for me.

JMHO as my buddy $Bill says,
Shorty

And also, I hope you are not insinuating I don't posess any "real pool knowledge" after 33 years in the sport. I would certainly not call myself a banger or spectator. I have also been an inside observer to all the road players that hit town to play Harry Platis. I think some allowances need to be made for regional differences. I never heard the term short stop before last month and that was right here, with varying degrees of definition. Please forgive my ignorance.

 

[Shorty]

And also, I hope you are not insinuating I don't posess any "real pool knowledge" after 33 years in the sport. I would certainly not call myself a banger or spectator. I think some allowances need to be made for regional differences. I never heard the term short stop before last month and that was right here, with varying degrees of definition. Please forgive my ignorance.

I am not insulting you at all Linda, and if I did, I am sorry but for someone to be playing pool for 33 years and just now hearing the term short stop...well...that's kinda odd to me. I have known what a short stop was since age 19. Like $Bill, I have spent many hours in a pool room seeing road players come and go. I guess my experience lies more in that area that yours evidently. Not saying I am a better pool player, but I have seen more gamblers and road players perhaps.

Trust me, I don't lump "Wonder Woman" in the pool of most people here LOL...heaven forbid I get lasso'd by the rope!

PS My step daughter loves that show still at age 16! I am more of a Bionic Woman fan myself.

Shorty

 

[Williebetmore]

And also, I hope you are not insinuating I don't posess any "real pool knowledge" after 33 years in the sport. I would certainly not call myself a banger or spectator. I think some allowances need to be made for regional differences. I never heard the term short stop before last month and that was right here, with varying degrees of definition. Please forgive my ignorance.

Rack-girl,
Well said. I would add that, as one who thinks shortstop is not a derogatory term, and refers to the very top regional players; I don't go along with the thinking that Santos is a shortstop - he's an assassin and definitely a top pro.

I would also say, that when it comes to short race 9-ball, ANYONE can win; and just beating a good player or 2 does NOT automatically mean a player is not a shortstop.

 

[5ballcharlie]

Tommy Kennedy is NOT a short stop. If a U.S. Open winner can be considered a short stop then there couldn't be more than 20-25 short stops on earth. No way Santos can be on this list either, short stops don't get on t.v. A short stop is a strong amateur player who is unlikely to cash in regional events. There are probably a couple thousand short stops worldwide.

--Steve

I agree 100% No way is tommy and santos shortstops. Isnt a shortstop a player who is a strong player but will lose to good road players and pros.

 

[ironman]

$Bill....I know...I know...just step away from the computer...

You have to realize that a good percentage of the people here don't have what I call "real" pool knowledge. They are merely bangers or spectators. They have not gambled nor experienced the game to the level some of us have. By that I don't mean they have not played pool for money...they may have...but have they truly been against the nuts and walked away winner?

I get told to shut up alot on here I know...but I damn well know what a shortstop is in my mind, and that's good enough for me.

JMHO as my buddy $Bill says,
Shorty

Well Shorty, Seems like you just hit the nail on the head and I'm guessing that a lot of people aren't gonna like it.
The game and the approach to the game has changed so much. I hope you keep getting told to shut up a lot. As long as you do, at least I know there is somebody left that I can relate to.
Now, I'm gonna fire up the Studdabaker, stop and get 5 gallons of ethyl and head to the pool hall and see if there is a shortstop that will play me some Oklahoma 8-ball.

 

[hemicudas]

Mutual Friend

Please read my original post or the whole thread. We don't use the term short stop here. It is only D through A+ then pro. At Danny's current level, compared to the other names that were given to me at the time such as Santos, Potier and Kennedy, that was how I made that determination. Trust me, I think all these guys are world beaters.

FYI - I talked to Danny this weekend and it was not a 9 footer but an 8 foot bar box he played Buddy on, both sets.

Linda, you and I have a mutual friend, Lunchmoney. I think if you were to ask him he might agree with me. The point of all this is with all due respect to Zimm, he plays better than me, the discription you were given of a short stop was/is inaccurate. For as long as I have been around pool, 45 years, there were bangers, short stops and players.

I would suggest you consult, Buddy, Keith, Mike, Allen, Nick or Dan Louie because he has beaten them all at one time or another, just what is a short stop?

Don't take it personal girl. I still think you are cute, LOL.