Should All Skill Levels Have an Equal Chance to Win a Weekly 9-Ball Handicapped Tournament?

DeeDeeCues said:
Ooo, burn.

No. I'm just a dude who likes to play and don't agree with giving people shit they don't earn.

So, I suppose your mom's den is filled with your participation trophies.
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No, no intention of trying to burn anyone, apparently you cant tell the difference, not surprising. The point is that it probably wouldn't make sense for you to enter a tournament filled with pros as you wouldn't have much chance of doing anything but 2 and out. That's why you don't see low level players entering open tournaments, it makes no sense for a low level player to sit in his chair and watch. I suppose you don't like capped tournaments either, those are the most popular in my neck of the woods.
Well then it sounds like you will have to learn to like handicapped tournaments because they are here to stay.
 
Between the two extremes of no handicap (lower ranked players will be less likely to join) and high enough handicap that skill doesn't increase your odds (better players will be less likely to join), I'd say the sweet spot is wherever the tournaments/leagues gather the most participants. Just gotta try something inbetween, and slightly alter the handicaps over time with the goal of maximizing the participant amount.
 
fastone371 said:
No, no intention of trying to burn anyone, apparently you cant tell the difference, not surprising. The point is that it probably wouldn't make sense for you to enter a tournament filled with pros as you wouldn't have much chance of doing anything but 2 and out. That's why you don't see low level players entering open tournaments, it makes no sense for a low level player to sit in his chair and watch. I suppose you don't like capped tournaments either, those are the most popular in my neck of the woods.
Well then it sounds like you will have to learn to like handicapped tournaments because they are here to stay.
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I hear you but half the field of Matchroom open events are dead movey.
 
Pool players love 2 things. (1) to complain and (2) to have the edge in whatever game they are in. As someone still relatively new to pool, I find it amusing the guys that will post on the local Facebook page complaining about how nobody will match up with them anymore. Then they will make a post looking for action that includes an asterisk listing out all of the people they won’t play lol.

Always quick to call out others for not wanting to improve, but when its their money they want to make sure they’ve got the best of it.
 
DeadStick said:
This is how my local room in Austin does weekly tournaments with no handicaps. They're played on 10 of the room's 18 Diamond Pro-Am 9-footers. Field's always full, with several 700+ guys in the mix. The Break Contest is breaking and trying to run a full rack of 15 balls in rotation. The pot builds up and was north of $6,000 last week. You get one entry ticket each tournament you enter, and can buy more for $20 ea iirc:

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If I lived there I think I’d be in every tournament in that flyer every week.
 
rexus31 said:
We are talking amateurs here but I do think #100 has a chance to beat a top 5 player. It's an apples to oranges comparison. Amateurs can plateau at a certain level but I have a hard time believing a 450 can't become a 550 through dedicated practice, a desire to improve and possibly professional instruction. I've seen it happen.

You think a 6/2 handicapped race favors the better players? I'd say most handicapped events DO NOT favor the better players and that's where a majority of the amateur events are headed if they haven't already landed there. Again, not everybody is a winner or has a chance at winning, that's life. You cannot lower the standards so the weakest of the weak have a chance at winning. The higher skilled player who puts in the time to improve or maintain, should have a higher probability of winning vs the player with the lower skill level who doesn't care to put in the time to improve. Let me put it in a real life scenario. The CEO of my company has a higher education that I do and more experience resulting in a commensurate gap in compensation. Should I command his salary be lowered and mine raised to level the playing field and make it "fair"? Of course not. He's earned his salary and I've not earned his level of compensation and most likely never will. That's life.

The caveat is "correct". IMO, providing a handicap (especially a wide one) diminishes the desire to improve.
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I didnt say a chance to beat a top 5 player. I said equal skill to.

Sure a 450 can make it to 550 but they still have zero chance of winning an open tournament. Amateurs in other sports all use handicaps. I am not sure why it is so frowned upon in pool.

Handicapped tournaments here are still won by the better player the majority of the time. They just dont want to work hard to win every match.

You are not betting anything vs your CEO. People pay to enter tournaments. Typically people only lose so much before they quit playing in open tournaments they have no chance of cashing in. Or they have other motivations for playing.

People who want to improve will do so even if that means a smaller spot up to their ceiling. They dont get just good enough to beat the current spot and then make sure they keep that spot.

The bottom line is every player has a choice to enter a tournament or not based on entry fee and a variety of other factors. The main goal for a room is to get the most player participation for an event.

Split bracket handicap tournaments get huge turnouts and calcuttas because so many players have a chance of winning or finishing high. That isn't the case when you have 5 players over 700 and then everyone else 600 or less in an open event. Those 5 might go for a lot in the calcutta and then nobody else bids on the rest of the field because they have no chance.
 
I think these systems are here to stay. Human nature is what it is. About 8 years ago I took up bare bow archery. I was able to record a 260 USA indoor Archery score. When the local club put a league together I had to give up a handicap where I had to shoot a world record to win. We all had a good laugh about it. That league didn't last. I don't worry about it much my rating will be what it will be in pool, archery or whatever and I will go to play to win no matter if I am giving or getting weight.
 
Personally from a business owners prospective, you should do what ever puts more money in your pocket. People will complain and life is not fair. Some of the small tournaments here in Houston, if you win 2 or 3 weeks in a row, they will ask you not to play the next week. I think this is ok for the new age of punishing the strong to satisfy the weak. I will say from not playing pool for 17 years and coming back, this being about one year back, it is a strange new way of play. Rack your own, loser breaks, alternating breaks. I get it though, the tournaments stay live longer.
This is the truth, most serious pool player are not there to spend a lot of money unless they lose it gambling. More bodies in the building and more cars in the parking lot create atmosphere. People are drawn to crowds.
To satisfy everyone is impossible. Just because people complain doesn’t mean you have to engage, a lot of times they will come back anyway. To me the races seem fair, but for 9 ball. I don’t think anyone should only have to go to 1 game. Good player should not be taken advantage of even if they are jerks. They offer knowledge.
I say just watch the numbers, if people stop showing up then make an adjustment.
 
I personally like divisions for big tournaments. But weekly the handicap should be that the lower players have a chance of winning but the better shooters usually win, just my opinion.
 
if every single person does not have an equal chance than the handicap is not fair. simple as that.

if the goal is to deceive them in thinking they have a real chance so they keep coming back than thats a different story.
 
I haven't read every post in the thread (I started getting sleepy), and I don't know if it has been mentioned/asked but.....

....If the OP's handicapped tourney has a low entry fee (say $10-$15) as opposed to a higher entry fee (say $40-$50) then as a lower-skilled player such as I am wouldn't/shouldn't have a problem with not having a completely even chance to win the tourney. The ability to compete weekly with skilled players of all levels should make a low entry fee tourney worthwhile to play in. I mean, we're not doing this to finance our homes, right? The pure enjoyment of competing with people that you interact with on a weekly basis is well worth the cost of the lesser entry fee.

That said, the same does not hold true if you are shelling out $50 week in and week out. That adds up to money that could have been used for better things. If an entrant ponied up $50 week after week and ends up going 2-and-out in a lot of tourneys, then I wouldn't blame them for not playing anymore in that tourney.

I wonder if one could keep records of all the entrants that finish poorly in the tourney and maybe once a month have a separate tourney for them to keep them coming around and playing/ buying food and alcohol?
 
Maniac said:
I haven't read every post in the thread (I started getting sleepy), and I don't know if it has been mentioned/asked but.....

....If the OP's handicapped tourney has a low entry fee (say $10-$15) as opposed to a higher entry fee (say $40-$50) then as a lower-skilled player such as I am wouldn't/shouldn't have a problem with not having a completely even chance to win the tourney. The ability to compete weekly with skilled players of all levels should make a low entry fee tourney worthwhile to play in. I mean, we're not doing this to finance our homes, right? The pure enjoyment of competing with people that you interact with on a weekly basis is well worth the cost of the lesser entry fee.

That said, the same does not hold true if you are shelling out $50 week in and week out. That adds up to money that could have been used for better things. If an entrant ponied up $50 week after week and ends up going 2-and-out in a lot of tourneys, then I wouldn't blame them for not playing anymore in that tourney.

I wonder if one could keep records of all the entrants that finish poorly in the tourney and maybe once a month have a separate tourney for them to keep them coming around and playing/ buying food and alcohol?
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Those are good points. A $10 entry tournament is often close to the price of table time. I learn a bit more from competing than watching so it's a good deal. $50? I can't keep tossing that out every week with no chance of a return. I guess it depends on your finances and if you can afford to think of it as "lessons", right now $20 is tight. If I am playing 2 tournaments a week, that can add up. If I'm having a really good day, I have a good chance of cashing. If I'm playing anything less than my average, I'm throwing my money away.
 
Maniac said:
I haven't read every post in the thread (I started getting sleepy), and I don't know if it has been mentioned/asked but.....

....If the OP's handicapped tourney has a low entry fee (say $10-$15) as opposed to a higher entry fee (say $40-$50) then as a lower-skilled player such as I am wouldn't/shouldn't have a problem with not having a completely even chance to win the tourney. The ability to compete weekly with skilled players of all levels should make a low entry fee tourney worthwhile to play in. I mean, we're not doing this to finance our homes, right? The pure enjoyment of competing with people that you interact with on a weekly basis is well worth the cost of the lesser entry fee.

That said, the same does not hold true if you are shelling out $50 week in and week out. That adds up to money that could have been used for better things. If an entrant ponied up $50 week after week and ends up going 2-and-out in a lot of tourneys, then I wouldn't blame them for not playing anymore in that tourney.

I wonder if one could keep records of all the entrants that finish poorly in the tourney and maybe once a month have a separate tourney for them to keep them coming around and playing/ buying food and alcohol?
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FYI, our Monday night entry fee is $25, of which $20 goes to the $ purse. The Wednesday tournament has a $20 entry fee, $15 which goes to the $ purse. Both tournaments are handicapped, but the strongest two rankings on Monday nights are not allowed to play on Wednesday nights.
 
nine_ball6970 said:
Handicapped tournaments here are still won by the better player the majority of the time. They just dont want to work hard to win every match.
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Could we extend that to include the weaker players don't want to work hard enough to compete naturally..?

Speaking for myself... I played a ton of 'table time' matches well before I dared compete in a tourney. I knew at jump that I couldn't compete. Never dawned on me that I should have just complained enough to force the TD to make my piss poor skills competitive.
 
easy-e said:
Handicaps should be there to make it more competitive, not totally fair.
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Yeah, I don't think it's fair if I work hard on my game just to give up a bigger spot to someone who won't drag himself to the practice table. And if someone is a weaker player getting a lot of weight, it shouldn't take a whole lot of practice for him to outrun his rating and win games. Improvement is much easier at that end of the range.
 
ChrisinNC said:
FYI, our Monday night entry fee is $25, of which $20 goes to the $ purse. The Wednesday tournament has a $20 entry fee, $15 which goes to the $ purse. Both tournaments are handicapped, but the strongest two rankings on Monday nights are not allowed to play on Wednesday nights.
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You could always offer up a special tournament just for players who go 2 and out 3 or 4 times, someone who has probably never won will get a chance to win.
 
fastone371 said:
You could always offer up a special tournament just for players who go 2 and out 3 or 4 times, someone who has probably never won will get a chance to win.
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What about the 2 and outers in this "participation event"? Do they then get a special event? Do the special events stop when everybody has won a tournament? Where does it end?
 
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