Should pros be allowed to rob amateur events?

[HawaiianEye]

Man up!

Whether I get beat or not, forget the spot.

In these tournaments, I'd rather play even with everybody...even if Earl is playing.

 

[PoppaSaun]

This new ratings system has a major flaw. It doesn't reward good players for being good. There should be a max weight threshold. Otherwise, it's pure communism - the useless peasants hogtie the producers and rob them blind.

The rating system does reward good players for being good...their rating goes up.

What you are referring to is a 'handicapping' system...and none of us know what you are on about because no handicapping system has been mentioned.

FargoRate is a rating system. How someone uses that to handicap events has nothing to do with FargoRate. FargoRate does give statistics for what expected outcomes are when two players match up.

 

[Oze147]

On first sight, I can see why amateurs could get frustrated because of a pro entering their local event- he is too strong and it is a bit unfair to the rest of the field.

But in reality this situation only matters to a handfull of players. The players who would have a chance to win if the pro doesn't enter. The majority of the field wouldn't have a chance anyway.
So let's say you forbid the pro to enter the event. Still most of the players don't have a realistic chance to win and the conditions are still unfair to them.
Everybody wants to win, right?
So now we should forbit the top five amateurs to enter, because there a better than the rest...and so on and so on...

My point is, that not the best players kill tournaments or local events, its the persuit for equality and not rewarding good players.

 

[Carolina_Giant]

There's a local tournament here that often brings in guys like Shannon Daulton, Mike Davis, and Steve Moore. Yea, if one of those guys showed up, everyone knew we were playing probably for 4th place.

But everyone brought their A game. Those guys being their sifted the wheat from the chaff. And it was a lot of fun just to talk to them and hear their road stories, highlight moments, or just even share a laugh for a few hours.

That's why leagues were invented in the first place, to appeal to players who were too intimidated by or couldn't compete with better players to have a time where they could just have fun and pretend they were king or queen of the pool world.

All tournaments should be open format, and if you aren't willing to get better or be a punching bag while you learn, stay in the league pool.

 

[poolpro2]

If I ever stop wanting to improve, I will quit the game.

First, let me say. Where I am at we just don't have that many pros running around.
When I first started playing pool (Back in the day before the league explosion and You Tube). You would run into a player that was better, and probably loose.
To me, they were put on a list. In the beginning, that list was really long. Of course as I got better I started moving up that list.
If someone beats me, I want to beat them back, I have to get or play better to do it.
I am not one to ask for a spot (I won't necessarily turn down one if it is offered), I want to come back and beat them heads up.
Don't get me wrong, I love watching someone outrun the nuts and would like to find someone bad enough for me to try it one day. HAHA!
I am not challenging Shane, or other pros heads up. So if I can run into them at a tournament - that makes my day.
Having a pro shooting against you in a competitive situation is a monster learning experience.

I do hate it when you want to match up and the other persons first words are "What is your Fargo and league rating."
Sorry a little drift off here. I like different entry fees, as a solution.
If it is an open tournament anyone can play.

 

[Wybrook]

Back when I was coming up in the game, there were very few handicapped tournaments. A couple of pool halls had one here and there, but essentially, most were open with no handicaps.

I got good fast and started winning these tournaments so I would play in bigger regional events, and eventually, the real events. To keep in practice, as there werent a lot of events going on, I had to play in local stuff.

Most of the people thought it was fine as I would have to give up the last 7 and the break to half the field, but I still managed to win my fair share. It was never a major issue if good players showed up as everyone had a good time and understood that "better" took time. I paid my dues every day, until finally they were paid back.

Step forward in time...every tournament is handicapped and people won't even consider playing unless they feel they have the biggest nuts. Gambling is harder to win as no one will play without massive spots. Open events are always held at the most inconvenient times, and sparingly at that.

A few years ago someone started an "open" mini-tour in Fl. I inquired as to my playing status and I was told I could play... Great! I went to the first event and it had a lot of really good players, but I was the favorite. I had a couple of fortunate rolls in the finals and I ended up winning... se la vi'

The next month, they had their 2nd event and I get up early and drive 2 1/2 hours to the pool hall.. When I get there, the roster already has 50 some players... I sign up and go talk to a bunch of friends and start hitting balls. About 20 minutes later, the director comes over and hands me back my entry ($40) and tells me I am no longer allowed to play in their events.

I asked why, as I played the first one and the event was "Open". 14 people requested their money back if I played. How's that for a bunch of nits?
The Director was wrong and so were the other people. It was a cheap tournament, it was called "Open" and it was for very little money..

I lost gas money, time and a tour I could play in. I think I left and went and played golf somewhere...

These days, there are only a couple of local and regional events that good players can play in. More and more are starting to let the better players in, and I am grateful for that, so I hope the trend continues.

 

[PoppaSaun]

Back when I was coming up in the game, there were very few handicapped tournaments. A couple of pool halls had one here and there, but essentially, most were open with no handicaps.

I got good fast and started winning these tournaments so I would play in bigger regional events, and eventually, the real events. To keep in practice, as there werent a lot of events going on, I had to play in local stuff.

Most of the people thought it was fine as I would have to give up the last 7 and the break to half the field, but I still managed to win my fair share. It was never a major issue if good players showed up as everyone had a good time and understood that "better" took time. I paid my dues every day, until finally they were paid back.

Step forward in time...every tournament is handicapped and people won't even consider playing unless they feel they have the biggest nuts. Gambling is harder to win as no one will play without massive spots. Open events are always held at the most inconvenient times, and sparingly at that.

A few years ago someone started an "open" mini-tour in Fl. I inquired as to my playing status and I was told I could play... Great! I went to the first event and it had a lot of really good players, but I was the favorite. I had a couple of fortunate rolls in the finals and I ended up winning... se la vi'

The next month, they had their 2nd event and I get up early and drive 2 1/2 hours to the pool hall.. When I get there, the roster already has 50 some players... I sign up and go talk to a bunch of friends and start hitting balls. About 20 minutes later, the director comes over and hands me back my entry ($40) and tells me I am no longer allowed to play in their events.

I asked why, as I played the first one and the event was "Open". 14 people requested their money back if I played. How's that for a bunch of nits?
The Director was wrong and so were the other people. It was a cheap tournament, it was called "Open" and it was for very little money..

I lost gas money, time and a tour I could play in. I think I left and went and played golf somewhere...

These days, there are only a couple of local and regional events that good players can play in. More and more are starting to let the better players in, and I am grateful for that, so I hope the trend continues.

Congratulations, you found fourteen coward crybabies and a TD with no balls.

Seriously, tho, that is complete BS. I used to play competitive foosball, I was a upper-mid level player when the world #3 moved into my hometown. We always got him to the weekly tourneys held in the bars...and he was underage, so we actually had to get the bars to make concessions for him. Hell, if he wouldn't have been there, I would have never been able to say that I stuffed him on match ball in one event.

 

[Tin Man]

it depends

The more I think about this conversation the more I realize that while I, personally, would prefer open tournaments, the real answer is that it's a free country and people are free to do what they want.

"Should" pros be allowed to rob amateur events? It's up to each individual. The tournament director gets to make decisions based on what they are trying to achieve. And the players get to decide whether they want to play.

Does the TD want the best of the best in their room for a premier event? Somehow Dave Coles runs a heck of a world class tournament in a pool room in Beloit WI, while here in Minneapolis MN our open tournaments died out 8 years ago. Does the TD want to draw new players into the game? Do they want to reward players that play in a league system they promote?

Do the players want to get better? Do they want a shot at a title or victory the likes of which they've never won before? Do they want money? Time at the table? An ego boost?

I don't want to run tournaments. I'm a busy guy with a job and a family and the time I have for pool I'd prefer to spend playing, not promoting. If there aren't any tournaments around my parts that are worth me playing then that's fine, I'll fly to the Open next week and drive to Beloit when those events are there. I personally choose not to play handicapped tournaments locally because it doesn't work for me.

I guess I think the word 'should' is the issue. TD's shouldn't have to do anything. Players shouldn't have to do anything. People get to do what they want. I personally think that it would be nice to have TD's run open tournaments, and it would be nice if players showed up to try to win them. But while I'm dreaming it would be nice if there was an organized pro tour, and if a top 100 player in the country could make six figures in winnings and sponsorships, and while we're at it a unicorn to ride to the pool hall.

Bottom line, things work the way they do, people do what they do. I applaud the few that step up and put in the time and energy to develop a vision of a better pool world and try to make that happen. For example Mike Page who had a vision of the best pool hall in the world and a universal rating system (although I miss the open tournaments up there while we're on the topic ), or Pat Fleming for stepping up to keep the US Open running. But for me, since I'm not taking action I'll just accept that things are how they are and will be totally fine taking what comes. No reason to complain or think it ought to be different. If you're not going to change it then just roll with it.

 

[Ched]

If you're an amateur pool player only playing for money, take the time you spend at a pool table and go to work at McDonald's you will be farther ahead!

Play for enjoyment, play for competition, play for self improvement, but don't play to make money! The hours spent getting good enough to make money is lost opportunity to make lots of money with a regular job! Stay in school kids!

Education is important but Pool is importanter! Lol

Ched <-- really - REALLY liked this post

 

[Justin Bergman]

I would say if a guy is robbing a $5 tournament at the bar every week and is obviously 7 balls better than everyone than he should not be allowed to play imo. But if you are in a big city and run a monthly tournament $30 entry imo everyone should be allowed to play.

Yes, exactly that's like giving a handicap to poker players. All you have to do is look at the AzBilliards money list and than look at how much some guy will win for sandbagging APA 4 skill level in Vegas he will make about the same as the top 15 or 20 player in the world.

I get this all the time. There is a few tournaments around my area that are even handicapped, bar table, and don't pay great but it is something to do and maybe make a couple hundred if you get lucky, have them miss, and you play perfect than maybe you have a chance at winning.... Nope automatically I can't play so some guy that does not even care about pool ends up winning. He most likely will not come back to play, spend money, practice, or anything until the next monthly. IMHO I think its bad for pool but I'm not in charge.

 

[Ched]

Time management

I'll be honest - I think there's some really great arguments on both sides here. As much as there have been a TON of great threads I've seen since getting here - this one may be the one that's made me "think" the most. (it's also made me rethink the "which azb member would you like to meet .. lol).

I still stand by my "do your homework" post and know who's going to be in a tournament. If you get totally hosed by a great player, let him know you appreciate his/her ability - who knows - s/he may even be willing to help ya out a bit. (edit: and act accordingly the next time you see him/her entered. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.) I guess the biggest question this thread begs is "Define Pro".

re MyTitle:
Ya know, between this forum, actually playing again, watching training vids, buying and reading books, and getting to know the "current' scene and players ... it's really cut into my watching TV time.

 

[Ekojasiloop]

One of the biggest problems there’s no way to ever get around is the people who are going to gain by getting the better players out are always such passionate and persuasive aholes. It’s just one set of good players being replace by another. It’s all relative. That’s why I think it’s gotta be let everyone play ideally.

 

[Maxx]

I was in Normal, IL for business a few weeks ago. I always take a cue with me and ask about pool halls. Ended up at Ride the Nine. A guy asked if I wanted to play in the Tuesday night tournament and I said sure.

One guy looked familiar but I couldn't place him. I finally figured out his the girl with him was Sarah Rousey and then the lightbulb went on, Jason Klatt.

He ended up beating me twice and I got a distant second. It was nice to play against him and Sarah, I don't know if they play often, but if I lived around there I definitely would be hitting up that tournament, trying to improve my performance against Jason. Both him and Sarah seemed very nice.

Second place paid for the entry, a few beers and a sandwich. All in all a good night.

 

[Black-Balled]

The one offs aren't the issue though. It is the repeated wins of a far superior player that is the problem-maker.

How long would you continue to attend if you never cashed?

I was in Normal, IL for business a few weeks ago. I always take a cue with me and ask about pool halls. Ended up at Ride the Nine. A guy asked if I wanted to play in the Tuesday night tournament and I said sure.

One guy looked familiar but I couldn't place him. I finally figured out his the girl with him was Sarah Rousey and then the lightbulb went on, Jason Klatt.

He ended up beating me twice and I got a distant second. It was nice to play against him and Sarah, I don't know if they play often, but if I lived around there I definitely would be hitting up that tournament, trying to improve my performance against Jason. Both him and Sarah seemed very nice.

Second place paid for the entry, a few beers and a sandwich. All in all a good night.

 

[Maxx]

I don't know how long I would go without ever cashing, that does get frustrating.
I do think I would keep playing, even if it is a race for second, but I would probably have something to say if the local tournament gets robbed by the same guy every week.

You're right!

 

[pt109]

I feel spreading the prize money out could be a good solution....
...too much top-heavy payouts in this game.

In golf, the winner usually gets less than 20% of the total purse.
In pool, I hear a lot of requests for top-heavy payouts....
...by the players that think they’re going to get them...
..even though they’re ensuring the tournament’s demise...it’s akin to canabalism.

...and pick the top players and put a bonus on them....
...so that it becomes a mark of honor to overcome one...and profitable.

We need events that emphasize that getting better is a GOOD thing.

 

[PoppaSaun]

The one offs aren't the issue though. It is the repeated wins of a far superior player that is the problem-maker.

How long would you continue to attend if you never cashed?

In my experience, it isn't the guys who never cash who cry and quit. It is the people who are threats to place or show and may win if the top one or two aren't there. They look for easier ways to win, so they go to weaker tourneys and try to rob them, like the guy who robbed their tourney.

The small fish know they are small fish and really don't care about the size of the pond if the tourney is well run and affordable for them.

The medium fish who used to look like big fish lose their $#!+ when a bigger fish comes to their pond and will look for a smaller pond.

 

[PoppaSaun]

I feel spreading the prize money out could be a good solution....
...too much top-heavy payouts in this game.

In golf, the winner usually gets less than 20% of the total purse.
In pool, I hear a lot of requests for top-heavy payouts....
...by the players that think they’re going to get them...
..even though they’re ensuring the tournament’s demise...it’s akin to canabalism.

...and pick the top players and put a bonus on them....
...so that it becomes a mark of honor to overcome one...and profitable.

We need events that emphasize that getting better is a GOOD thing.

Disagree. Unlike golf, there is no added money in pool. If you spread out the payouts, it becomes the same as simply making the entry fee smaller. Nobody ends up making anything.

Socialist movements like that simply ensure that fewer people see much benefit.

 

[couldnthinkof01]

How long would you continue to attend if you never cashed?

When I first started playing open tournaments I went almost a year of playing every week without winning a single match.

Another year before I cashed.

And at least a year after that before I won one.

Same couple players win every week. A rotatating group of about 5 or six players. Many by the same one or two.

Never bothered me I just kept working on my game.

If its an open tournament, anyone should be allowed to play.

If it says no pros and bergman is playing that would be suspect.

 

[vapoolplayer]

In my experience, it isn't the guys who never cash who cry and quit. It is the people who are threats to place or show and may win if the top one or two aren't there. They look for easier ways to win, so they go to weaker tourneys and try to rob them, like the guy who robbed their tourney.

The small fish know they are small fish and really don't care about the size of the pond if the tourney is well run and affordable for them.

The medium fish who used to look like big fish lose their $#!+ when a bigger fish comes to their pond and will look for a smaller pond.

Yep.....most of the time anytime someone complains about someone “robbing,” it’s because it’s hindering their theft.....