Should pros be allowed to rob amateur events?

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
THuff call. I wouldn't show up every week, just to see the same guy win easily.

I have been the bully and killed more than a few local weekly events, now there are basically none.

Without handicaps, long term participation suffers.
 

maha

from way back when
Silver Member
the director can take it upon himself to handicap the much better players so that all can have some chance.
pool is a game of skill and if not balanced only a few take all the money and the game dies off. is that so hard to understand. how long will the average player watch his money go to the same people.
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A simple solution is - you win it, you sit out for two weeks. Gives others a better chance. And don't make the payouts so top heavy.
 

BassMasterK

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've seen some places put a rule in place that the winner of a tourney is not allowed to play in it the following week. It doesn't stop things if there are 2 or 3 guys that are way better than everyone else and always win, but I think it sends a message that they are trying to keep it from being a one person show.

Another place I like to play at has short races, a low entry fee and they report matches to Fargorate. If you are rated a master or above, you have to win an extra game. I like this for two reasons. One, the handicap is minimal. I'm not big into handicaps but this seems fair. Two, the low entry fee means it isn't going to be a big payday and that seems to keep it from being of much interest to our best local players. People are there because they love to play and they want some competition. The money is just the icing on the cake.
 

Rico

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Pro or am

Used to be a pro couldnt play in B.C.A. if you played in a tourn. with $300 entry you were out. Comparing pool to golf in golf if you make over$600 in a yr your a pro. Plenty of no masters tourn. Open should be just that open..If you want to ***** ***** about the 3and4s that runout play good safes and steal these short race tourns. Talk about no heart!!!.
 

JohnnyOzone

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think it's sad, more than anything.

Comparing golf to pool........at least golf has extensive regulations to define what a "pro" is. Pool has nothing.

The USGA does it to protect true amateurism. The BCA does not seem to care.

If there was a proper professional tour(s) maybe things would be different.

maybe 10 years down the road when FargoRate becomes ubiquitous (keeping fingers crossed), tournaments can set Fargo limits to define their fields.
 

Ekojasiloop

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The definition of a pro should be something along the lines that he or she makes a reasonable wage per year, say 40k or so.

So yes, most all players should be able to rob tournaments. If not the good player is the one getting robbed.
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've seen some places put a rule in place that the winner of a tourney is not allowed to play in it the following week. It doesn't stop things if there are 2 or 3 guys that are way better than everyone else and always win, but I think it sends a message that they are trying to keep it from being a one person show.

Another place I like to play at has short races, a low entry fee and they report matches to Fargorate. If you are rated a master or above, you have to win an extra game. I like this for two reasons. One, the handicap is minimal. I'm not big into handicaps but this seems fair. Two, the low entry fee means it isn't going to be a big payday and that seems to keep it from being of much interest to our best local players. People are there because they love to play and they want some competition. The money is just the icing on the cake.

Then just make it APA 5's and below. Take out the good players and there will still be a few winning regularly. And then the lower players will complain about them.
 

Snooker Theory

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If the money was good on the professional tour these guys wouldn't have to play side tournaments all the time IMHO.

I personally would love to play a pro in a local tournament even knowing that I would lose.
Look at the sad cash these guys are making, Corey Duel ranked 33rd on money list for this year with only 22 grand. After travel expenses, that isn't jack. Rodney Morris at 48th with 16 grand.

Comparing pool to golf is nuts when the 33rd guy in the money on the PGA is making $2,838,629.30 a year and the 48th ranked player pulling in a cool $2,058,070.00.
http://www.azbilliards.com/people/azb-money-leaderboard/2017/all/
http://www.espn.com/golf/moneylist/_/year/2017

A simple solution is - you win it, you sit out for two weeks. Gives others a better chance. And don't make the payouts so top heavy.
I couldn't be against this more, heck just make it so if a person wins, that person can't play until everyone else in the league has won. Eventually everyone will have a trophy.
 
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BassMasterK

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Then just make it APA 5's and below. Take out the good players and there will still be a few winning regularly. And then the lower players will complain about them.

How is what you suggested an improvement? I shared how a few places keep the tourneys open for everyone while trying to keep people coming back for more.
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How is what you suggested an improvement? I shared how a few places keep the tourneys open for everyone while trying to keep people coming back for more.

It's not an improvement for players tourny. But, if it is a group that isn;t very good to start with, they are there mainly to have fun and maybe a shot at coming close, and most of them are complaing about the better players, then it is another option. They did that around here and get good turnouts.

YES, IT SUCKS FOR THE BETTER PLAYERS.
 

raistlinsdragon

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Funny isn't it....The same good player's that don't want the tournament handicapped........Will come in during the week and offer spots all over the room.
 

Rimfirejunkie

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The definition of a pro should be something along the lines that he or she makes a reasonable wage per year, say 40k or so.

So yes, most all players should be able to rob tournaments. If not the good player is the one getting robbed.

40k for a pro? Lol
This is the most absurd thing I’ve read here! That’s saying something.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
40k for a pro? Lol
This is the most absurd thing I’ve read here! That’s saying something.

If that is the most absurd thing you've read here, you aren't giving the azb much effort.

40k a year (which would have to be tournament winnings, right ekoelaopolj?) Is fuguckin big.

I agree it pales in comparison to real work wages, but why shouldn't it?
 

Koop

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
With a fair handicap I don't see the problem. I used to play Mike Dechaine in local tournaments with a crazy spot and he always outran the nuts and I always felt I had a shot. Besides, most of these tournaments are around $20 entry so who really cares? For me it was about having fun and playing good competition.
 

Celophanewrap

Call me Grace
Silver Member
When Shane was living in Fort Collins and playing-winning a lot of tournaments around here, it seemed like it was good for pool.
But that was Shane who is very likable, a good ambassador for the game.

Danny Medina played in many local tournaments here in Denver, and I think guys enjoyed being able to say... "I played Danny Medina last night"

I enjoyed that the first time, and I liked Danny a lot, so I didn't mind being totally honest
about it and saying, So last night I got to rack for Danny Medina


I don't really see a problem as long as you know what you are getting into. I think if you enter an "open" tournament you should expect to play better, sometimes

wayyyyyyy better players, maybe even a pro, a semi pro, a road player.... If you enter an APA tournament 6's and under, you should expect that. I don't really enter anything like that anymore, I just hate the

waiting around between matches, but if you do enter a tournament you should know what to expect. If you see or hear about a player that has entered and you

don't want to play them, then don't enter. I think it's good for the game, people come out to see a pro, it helps grow the sport
 
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Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
Here's a thread that's not going to come to any definitive conclusion. The whining factor :sad: will always have it's say. It will often be right, often be wrong and in the end, the event will either succeed or not. No lives will be shattered, many differences will be realized and who holds all the trump cards will be realized. :thumbup:
 

mikepage

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
[...]
Handicapping pool is like handicapping a running race! Let's give the out of shape beer drinker a lap and a half head start against world record setter Michael Johnson. If the fat guy happens to win what does it mean?? We need to stop rewarding mediocrity and start rewarding the true champions!

It is not one-size-fits-all.

Let me give an example of another situation that maybe helps make a point.

My extended family has taken many beach vacations, and we are competitive by nature; we can make a contest out of anything. One of the things we do is play touch football on the beach--and there is no out-of-bounds on the ocean side of the field. We may have a few college-level athletes, a few women, a few fat guys, and few old people, and maybe a few kids. We'll make sure the athletes are on separate teams, split up the fat people, and so forth. Then once we have teams, the event will go on for many hours. We will be hot, fatigued, scratched up from diving attempts in the crumbled sea shells. We'll develop team camaraderie. We'll go on when it seems we are too exhausted to continue because we are only behind by one score... And afterward, we'll drink beer well into the night talking about key plays, about the incredible play where we hiked the ball to grandma who lateral'd back to the kid who threw to the open college athlete.

The POINT here is not to figure out who are the better players. We already know that. The POINT is to share the struggle, to experience the excitement of a small success, the disappointment of a small failure, to engage, to put a little spring in our steps, and to make our lives just a little better. It is not really about the result; it is about the process.

A good handicapped tournament can give everybody the chance--no matter how good they really are--to occasionally have that day where everything seems to click, and you make it farther than you'd ever imagined, and people are watching you, and you're nervous, and it feels like your arm is just barely connected to your body...

So yes, there also should be unhandicapped events, events where the player who performs the best finishes the highest. There is room for both.

This response doesn't address the original poster's question. I fear the wording of that question is not so conducive to a serious discussion.
 

fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
It is not one-size-fits-all.

Let me give an example of another situation that maybe helps make a point.

My extended family has taken many beach vacations, and we are competitive by nature; we can make a contest out of anything. One of the things we do is play touch football on the beach--and there is no out-of-bounds on the ocean side of the field. We may have a few college-level athletes, a few women, a few fat guys, and few old people, and maybe a few kids. We'll make sure the athletes are on separate teams, split up the fat people, and so forth. Then once we have teams, the event will go on for many hours. We will be hot, fatigued, scratched up from diving attempts in the crumbled sea shells. We'll develop team camaraderie. We'll go on when it seems we are too exhausted to continue because we are only behind by one score... And afterward, we'll drink beer well into the night talking about key plays, about the incredible play where we hiked the ball to grandma who lateral'd back to the kid who threw to the open college athlete.

The POINT here is not to figure out who are the better players. We already know that. The POINT is to share the struggle, to experience the excitement of a small success, the disappointment of a small failure, to engage, to put a little spring in our steps, and to make our lives just a little better. It is not really about the result; it is about the process.

A good handicapped tournament can give everybody the chance--no matter how good they really are--to occasionally have that day where everything seems to click, and you make it farther than you'd ever imagined, and people are watching you, and you're nervous, and it feels like your arm is just barely connected to your body...

So yes, there also should be unhandicapped events, events where the player who performs the best finishes the highest. There is room for both.

This response doesn't address the original poster's question. I fear the wording of that question is not so conducive to a serious discussion.

Excellent post Mike!!!!!
 
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