Only partially... :embarrassed2:
We all know about assuming...:wink:
Showman thread
- Thread starter Ken_4fun
- Start date
Only partially... :embarrassed2:
We all know about assuming...:wink:
Ken, you had every right to post your experience with this or any other cuemaker... and normally I'm against threads being pulled. But in this case, IMO, it was the right thing to do because you crossed the line when you described John's neighborhood, his living conditions and his shops cleanliness. All of those things were based only on your opinion. How he lives is no ones business and had nothing to do with your dealings with him.
Really? I have seen much worse written about people here not regarding pool and it stayed posted. Lets be real here, the thread was pulled by threat of lawsuit in all probability. I mean when they yanked the auctions / raffles they had no problem outing the reason, think that will happen here?
JV
JV
You know, you can't blame John for all this. A lot of mirrors need to be handed out. I remember the late 90's and up until 2006 or so when a certain dealer in Japan, locked up about 8-10 US cuemakers, and no one could get a cue directly from these individuals.
I remember the rants, I would never buy from so and so, they sold out, what a m'fer, POS, selling out to that sob, bast**d, I can't believe it. (These rants are from guys now that swear that the same cuemakers are their best friends).. Because they wouldn't make cues for anyone but that dealer. Then the bottom fell out and they came back looking for business and all those same people couldn't drop to their knees fast enough to go balls deep.
The higher the pedestal, the harder the fall. You also have to think about the economics, why build 75 cues in a year for 2k, and deal with pool players, or build 10 and get 15k from guys that in most cases have more bank, than can bank?
Different times my friends, different times.
JV
I remember the rants, I would never buy from so and so, they sold out, what a m'fer, POS, selling out to that sob, bast**d, I can't believe it. (These rants are from guys now that swear that the same cuemakers are their best friends).. Because they wouldn't make cues for anyone but that dealer. Then the bottom fell out and they came back looking for business and all those same people couldn't drop to their knees fast enough to go balls deep.
The higher the pedestal, the harder the fall. You also have to think about the economics, why build 75 cues in a year for 2k, and deal with pool players, or build 10 and get 15k from guys that in most cases have more bank, than can bank?
Different times my friends, different times.
JV
Ken, you are welcome to your opinion.
AZB however isn't your personal soap box. We all know how you feel. Yet, despite that, you feel you need free reign to say anything you wish? Make unfounded accusations? Accuse everyone of being John in disguise? Make veiled threats about having a lawyer?
These are things that wear out a welcome here.
You need to get a grip.
AZB however isn't your personal soap box. We all know how you feel. Yet, despite that, you feel you need free reign to say anything you wish? Make unfounded accusations? Accuse everyone of being John in disguise? Make veiled threats about having a lawyer?
These are things that wear out a welcome here.
You need to get a grip.
If the post that was referred to really wasn't John Showman trying to save some face after his poor behavior came to light, then it was a shill saving some face for him.
If the community can't be protected by members who get boned by cuemaker antics, what good is the community? I expect locals to tell me which mechanics to avoid. Same with general contractors. Why not cuemakers?
"Cuemaker X screwed me and here is the story" - I wouldn't call that an unfounded accusation. I would call it a peer review. If it is unfounded, John himself can post a picture of the delivery confirmation on Ken's cue and we will all blow Ken up for jumping the gun. I doubt that will happen, and it's not so "unfounded" anymore.
The truth squashes all claims of foul play and libel. Unfortunately, a cuemaker gamed his customer and whined to cover his tail. There's no libelous statement, there. It's the truth.
It's not Ken's personal soapbox, but calling a cuemaker with a huge following out and detailing his experience is only as personal as the bad experience went. It looks an awful lot like a public service at that point. John only came back to make sarcastic remarks and avoided the issue entirely.
Whatever, I'm glad Ken came through with the post... Helped a lot of people learn something new. </rant>
We get to do this again, awesome.
Anyone who would wait 5 YEARS for a cue, AND give that cue maker a deposit is in need of a yellow helmet. What size hat do you wear Ken. You wrote that you haven't sat at the kids table for years. The kids realized you gave a stranger 500 dollars for a pool stick that you wouldn't see for years and they moved you to the retard table. You said you got Christmas cards from Showman every year. I bet you set them on that table everyone has with all the cards from the family. Doesn't that make you feel stupid now?
You ordered it on your kids birthday? Was that a present, how did that go? Happy birthday sweetheart. Thanks dad.... it's a....certificate for a cue in 5 years. :rotflmao1::rotflmao1:
That's what you get for being a cue snob. Not trying to be mean, just having a little fun.
. What's your next cue
Anyone who would wait 5 YEARS for a cue, AND give that cue maker a deposit is in need of a yellow helmet. What size hat do you wear Ken. You wrote that you haven't sat at the kids table for years. The kids realized you gave a stranger 500 dollars for a pool stick that you wouldn't see for years and they moved you to the retard table. You said you got Christmas cards from Showman every year. I bet you set them on that table everyone has with all the cards from the family. Doesn't that make you feel stupid now?
You ordered it on your kids birthday? Was that a present, how did that go? Happy birthday sweetheart. Thanks dad.... it's a....certificate for a cue in 5 years. :rotflmao1::rotflmao1:
That's what you get for being a cue snob. Not trying to be mean, just having a little fun.
. What's your next cue
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I believe 99% of the men in this world have a price. Some have a low price, some have a high price, and believe it or not some men have no price..
I understand some men do desperate things at desperate times, but most of these desperate men will make a situation right!
It appears that some that have the world in their hands, will show their true colors for a few thousand dollars!!
I'm shaking my head in disbelief!!
I understand some men do desperate things at desperate times, but most of these desperate men will make a situation right!
It appears that some that have the world in their hands, will show their true colors for a few thousand dollars!!
I'm shaking my head in disbelief!!
Soooo happy that I have worked with the cue makers I have! All have given me exactly what I wanted (within the quoted pricing), all have had terrific communication, and all have delivered within the quoted timeframe, plus/minus a few weeks.
I think I'll continue in the future with this winning combination.
Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk
I think I'll continue in the future with this winning combination.
Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk
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Check out this page of Calvin and Hobbes (comic) quotes. Some of these give an excellent insight into certain cuemakers' psyche (number 9, 13, 16, 21, 29, 31, 57, check out number 44
Also try number 64 with your gf, if you like sleeping on the couch.
http://blog.riptapparel.com/blog/ript-t-shirts-calvin-and-hobbes-quotes/#.Uo7F7sTry3Q
I've heard of Calvin and Hobbes, but never knew what it was..
Thanks for sharing, I'm now a Fan! :thumbup:
I understand the caution that's been espoused and strongly underscored by many about hiring a cue-maker to build a cue for you. I see the entire proposition differently from so many other Azers but here's my take. I am not picking on Straightpool_99 about his specific post but he makes a point others have also stressed. " 3. If you give a cuemaker money up front, they will sxxxw you, much like a prostitute but less pleasant."
Cue-makers will undoubtedly see it the exact opposite way such as build some guy/gal a cue and when it's finished and ready for payment.......the customer skips, comes up with a lame excuse, finds fault with the cue just to get a lower price, etc. Now the cue-maker has to start selling his own wares and what if the cue doesn't sell fast.....maybe the design or specs was something the cue-maker would not have used but the customer asked for 12mm shafts and a cue weight of 17.0 ozs. Or you want a cue built a very exact way and with precise specifications and it's not something the cue-maker normally makes. Should the cue-maker underwrite the cost, effort and "risk" building a cue for someone he doesn't even know just because someone contacts him and tells him what they wanted him to build? In my opinion, he'd be a fool to do something like that.
A few months ago I hired a cue-maker to build a cue exactly as I designed. It was not going to be an easy build and after evaluating different cue-makers, I selected one. Should the cue-maker build this cue for me just because I called him on my cell phone and said I wanted it? What if I change my mind, become invalid, bankrupt, expire, etc. The cue-maker would be an idiot to take this cue project on without some skin in the game by me. At the outset, I referred to "hiring" a cue-maker. When you hire someone, you pay them for the work they are performing until the job is completed at either some agreed upon price or T&M. For new construction, we generally refer to this as progress payments because no one works for free. Admittedly, full payment is withheld until completion but nonetheless, payment is extended while work is being performed. When you ask a cue-maker to build you a cue, you are hiring him. You are not ordering a cue.
You want to order a cue, pick up a catalog or visit a cue dealer website and see what they have in inventory and "order" a cue. The cue isn't being built for you because it's a finished cue and you're ordering it. The cue could be a cue from 1995 or 2013 since it really doesn't matter in the least. When you buy it......."I'll take that one......could be a Schon, Meucci, Richard Black, Joel Hercek....you're just ordering the cue. Alright, so you hassle over price with some cues but once the price gets lowered and you like it, at that point you are merely "ordering" the cue from the seller at an agreed upon price. The seller doesn't have to go build some shafts or lacquer the cue etc. So the formality of buying essentially becomes just ordering a cue at that point. Ask a cue-maker to build you a cue, well, that's entirely different. In my estimation, you're hiring the cue-maker. Otherwise, just ask the cue-maker what he might have available in any finished cues in his inventory. If he does, ask him what's available and how much? After he tells you and you like the sound of one cue in particular....you debate price and settle..... then what do you do..... you "order the cue".
When you order something, you always have to pay for it so buying any finished cue from a dealer or cue-maker is really ordering a cue. There's a enormous distinction and difference between ordering a cue and asking someone to build you a cue. The bottom-line is I paid my cue-maker a big deposit to undertake building my cue and he's entitled to it. Obviously I am not on the same page as others about a down-payment but I'm not ordering a cue because it's taking 10 months to get it since the cue doesn't even exist. I've hired a cue-maker to create it and as such, a down-payment is completely in line with his business approach to cue-making and my common sense approach to asking for my design cue to be built.
Cue-makers will undoubtedly see it the exact opposite way such as build some guy/gal a cue and when it's finished and ready for payment.......the customer skips, comes up with a lame excuse, finds fault with the cue just to get a lower price, etc. Now the cue-maker has to start selling his own wares and what if the cue doesn't sell fast.....maybe the design or specs was something the cue-maker would not have used but the customer asked for 12mm shafts and a cue weight of 17.0 ozs. Or you want a cue built a very exact way and with precise specifications and it's not something the cue-maker normally makes. Should the cue-maker underwrite the cost, effort and "risk" building a cue for someone he doesn't even know just because someone contacts him and tells him what they wanted him to build? In my opinion, he'd be a fool to do something like that.
A few months ago I hired a cue-maker to build a cue exactly as I designed. It was not going to be an easy build and after evaluating different cue-makers, I selected one. Should the cue-maker build this cue for me just because I called him on my cell phone and said I wanted it? What if I change my mind, become invalid, bankrupt, expire, etc. The cue-maker would be an idiot to take this cue project on without some skin in the game by me. At the outset, I referred to "hiring" a cue-maker. When you hire someone, you pay them for the work they are performing until the job is completed at either some agreed upon price or T&M. For new construction, we generally refer to this as progress payments because no one works for free. Admittedly, full payment is withheld until completion but nonetheless, payment is extended while work is being performed. When you ask a cue-maker to build you a cue, you are hiring him. You are not ordering a cue.
You want to order a cue, pick up a catalog or visit a cue dealer website and see what they have in inventory and "order" a cue. The cue isn't being built for you because it's a finished cue and you're ordering it. The cue could be a cue from 1995 or 2013 since it really doesn't matter in the least. When you buy it......."I'll take that one......could be a Schon, Meucci, Richard Black, Joel Hercek....you're just ordering the cue. Alright, so you hassle over price with some cues but once the price gets lowered and you like it, at that point you are merely "ordering" the cue from the seller at an agreed upon price. The seller doesn't have to go build some shafts or lacquer the cue etc. So the formality of buying essentially becomes just ordering a cue at that point. Ask a cue-maker to build you a cue, well, that's entirely different. In my estimation, you're hiring the cue-maker. Otherwise, just ask the cue-maker what he might have available in any finished cues in his inventory. If he does, ask him what's available and how much? After he tells you and you like the sound of one cue in particular....you debate price and settle..... then what do you do..... you "order the cue".
When you order something, you always have to pay for it so buying any finished cue from a dealer or cue-maker is really ordering a cue. There's a enormous distinction and difference between ordering a cue and asking someone to build you a cue. The bottom-line is I paid my cue-maker a big deposit to undertake building my cue and he's entitled to it. Obviously I am not on the same page as others about a down-payment but I'm not ordering a cue because it's taking 10 months to get it since the cue doesn't even exist. I've hired a cue-maker to create it and as such, a down-payment is completely in line with his business approach to cue-making and my common sense approach to asking for my design cue to be built.
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I actually have one of his "Dictator Series" jump/breaks, I think it's the WMP model.
Maybe those are the so-called weapons of mass destruction everybody was looking for>>:shrug:
Is that a Weapon of Mass Production? And here I thought this was a thread about custom cues.
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I think you made a great point about how cue-maker reputations are now coming into question. The Forum needs a cue-maker reviews section, not another photo gallery or ask the cue-maker type either. One organized alphabetically by cue-maker and posted rants and raves from their customers so that everyone is currently abreast of the shit going on with some of these guys. I admire Showman's cue-making but his behavior more than negates any interest in him if this is all true. And I've found Ken to be a straight shooter so I believe what he writes. Too many problems with cue-makers seem to be going unreported for too long a period until the curtains are ultimately opened for all to read.