Siming Chen

Rhea said:
FargoRate is not flawed, you will bite your own tongue in the future when Siming Chen, Han Yu and Chezka all get to be among the top 30 in the world and prove it. I am of the opinion that Siming Chen already currently plays well above Jean Balukas speed when Jean was in her prime!
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Here is a news flash it doesn't mean a thing till they are winning Open events of some stature ,,no one is believing she's the same speed as sky except you and mike ,, she dosnt do one thing as good as Sky does, Sky breaks better , he shoots better , his safes are better and he banks better ,, and aside from that Sky plays all the games and she can't win in any of them unless it's a short race ,

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mikepage said:
I would say there are three parallel discussions

(1) Would Siming Chen compete amongst the men at the level her Fargo Rating suggests?

(2) Is the observed big performance gap between men and women dominated by nature or nurture --that is, which plays a bigger role: biological differences that can't change, or environmental/social issues that can.

(3) Do men play better than women?

I'd say you are the only participant in the third one.
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Regarding item #two I already said that for the women to complete with the top men they would have to undergo testosterone injections.

Many of the top female athletes in Olympic track and field were found out to be on Steroids which are just hormones.

E. Germany was famous for female athletes that had to shave their faces back in the day.

Some women play better than a whole lot of men but the top men play better than the top women and this has not changed in my opinion.

Like I demonstrated before in many posts the dominant male player in any room I've ever played in will defeat the dominant female player.

This plays out in other games that don't require brute strength such as Snooker and Golf.

The whole reason Allison Fisher started playing Nine Ball was the fact that she could not make any money being a female UK Snooker champion.

Woman can't compete with the men in Snooker according to top Snooker players. I already linked an article in a prior post regarding this phenomena.

Twenty five years ago many folks in pool were telling me that in the future the women would be able to complete with men in pool. Twenty five years on that is not the case.

The Chinese are using their system to subsidize athletes and those that play games. This will be hard for the West to complete against in the long run.

The Chinese women will benefit with increased expertise but in my opinion the Chinese men will hold the edge in overall effectiveness at the game.

The most important shot in the game is the break and in 10 ball most players don't use the soft break. The players with the biggest breaks like Shane dominate players with less breaking ability.

What woman can break the balls like Shane?
 
If it is really true, like so many are insisting, that there is no way that Siming is as good as a man with her same rating. Then we need to determine what rating for a man would equal Siming's rating as a woman.

If Siming matches up with a man 100 points below her in a long race (numerous times) and the person who wins just barely beats the other player, or Siming wins only half the matches, then I really am serious that the Fargo Rating system should realistically subtract 100 points from the rating of ALL women. That would be the only way to remove the gender bias from the rating system and make it a "universal" rating system.

EDIT: I hope that at least everyone can admit that there must be some level of male player that Siming can consistently beat. The only question is, what is the rating for that level of male player.
 
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Get_A_Grip said:
If it is really true, like so many are insisting, that there is no way that Siming is as good as a man with her same rating. Then we need to determine what rating for a man would equal Siming's rating as a woman.

If Siming matches up with a man 100 points below her in a long race (numerous times) and the person who wins just barely beats the other player, or Siming wins only half the matches, then I really am serious that the Fargo Rating system should realistically subtract 100 points from the rating of ALL women. That would be the only way to remove the gender bias from the rating system and make it a "universal" rating system.
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Cut 40 points and that's a good starting point

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Nick B said:
I was thinking 50 but I will accept your 40 as a starting point.
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The problem with 40 or 50 is we can probably mostly agree that Karen Corr is rated correctly at 729. I've personally seen her play in many regional events in the 2000's in the Philly area where she would go neck and neck with similar rated male players, and she won many of these regional events. (Joss tour, Scruggs tour, Mezz tour, etc).

Now, this new generation of Chinese women player I've never seen with my own eyes except one or two youtube videos. If they are legit 50 fargo points higher than Karen Corr, well then that is quite an accomplishment.

I'm a supporter of Fargorate for sure. Even so, I just can't wrap my head around that Skyler or Antonio Lining (Who Efren has said in interviews before is who he'd want as his partner in a match) is at the same level as Siming. Lining is WORLD CLASS speed. He'd be an 800 player if it was his prime 20 years ago.

So, is there a breakdown of fargorate for the women above Karen Corr's speed?

Or, are these women really that good, and play even with Skylar and Lining?!?!

I really think this could be a good promotional opportunity. It could promote the sport of pool, fargorate, and women, all to the pool bangers and the general population. Maybe someone with clout like Matchroom can put this together? Match up the world top 5 women by fargorate with the equivalent rating fargorate men. Do it just like mosconi style, 5 persons teams, short race, team and individual format. I think it could be a great hit.

I know everyone on AZ at least will be watching it.
 
iusedtoberich said:
The problem with 40 or 50 is we can probably mostly agree that Karen Corr is rated correctly at 729. I've personally seen her play in many regional events in the 2000's in the Philly area where she would go neck and neck with similar rated male players, and she won many of these regional events. (Joss tour, Scruggs tour, Mezz tour, etc).

Now, this new generation of Chinese women player I've never seen with my own eyes except one or two youtube videos. If they are legit 50 fargo points higher than Karen Corr, well then that is quite an accomplishment.

I'm a supporter of Fargorate for sure. Even so, I just can't wrap my head around that Skyler or Antonio Lining (Who Efren has said in interviews before is who he'd want as his partner in a match) is at the same level as Siming. Lining is WORLD CLASS speed. He'd be an 800 player if it was his prime 20 years ago.

So, is there a breakdown of fargorate for the women above Karen Corr's speed?

Or, are these women really that good, and play even with Skylar and Lining?!?!

I really think this could be a good promotional opportunity. It could promote the sport of pool, fargorate, and women, all to the pool bangers and the general population. Maybe someone with clout like Matchroom can put this together? Match up the world top 5 women by fargorate with the equivalent rating fargorate men. Do it just like mosconi style, 5 persons teams, short race, team and individual format. I think it could be a great hit.

I know everyone on AZ at least will be watching it.
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With the caveat that short races in Nine Ball are really just a circus act and prove nothing.

I think what you are talking about is just pure entertainment. There is a place for entertainment and pool needs stars that it can market.

Pool will not enjoy large purses as long as the public is totally in the dark as to who the champions are.

Tiger Woods wherever he goes is a star. Champion pool players are in the wilderness compared with other sports and games.

Content is sold by stars. No Stars no big money. The SVB story is inspiring and yet there is zero media coverage.

Guys like Alex P. the lion, have an engaging personality on top of their pool skills but play in obscurity.
 
overlord said:
With the caveat that short races in Nine Ball are really just a circus act and prove nothing.

I think what you are talking about is just pure entertainment. There is a place for entertainment and pool needs stars that it can market.

Pool will not enjoy large purses as long as the public is totally in the dark as to who the champions are.

Tiger Woods wherever he goes is a star. Champion pool players are in the wilderness compared with other sports and games.

Content is sold by stars. No Stars no big money. The SVB story is inspiring and yet there is zero media coverage.

Guys like Alex P. the lion, have an engaging personality on top of their pool skills but play in obscurity.
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Yes, agree. My proposed idea would be entertainment. That's what we need to grow the sport. Entertainment and excitement, both things that the Mosconi cup offers, while TAR style races to 100 are a snooze fest.

Still, you can't deny that Europe as a whole is legitimately better than the US, and the last 10 years of Mosconi have shown that. If the women hung with the men in this format, that is saying A LOT!
 
iusedtoberich said:
The problem with 40 or 50 is we can probably mostly agree that Karen Corr is rated correctly at 729. I've personally seen her play in many regional events in the 2000's in the Philly area where she would go neck and neck with similar rated male players, and she won many of these regional events. (Joss tour, Scruggs tour, Mezz tour, etc).

Now, this new generation of Chinese women player I've never seen with my own eyes except one or two youtube videos. If they are legit 50 fargo points higher than Karen Corr, well then that is quite an accomplishment.

I'm a supporter of Fargorate for sure. Even so, I just can't wrap my head around that Skyler or Antonio Lining (Who Efren has said in interviews before is who he'd want as his partner in a match) is at the same level as Siming. Lining is WORLD CLASS speed. He'd be an 800 player if it was his prime 20 years ago.

So, is there a breakdown of fargorate for the women above Karen Corr's speed?

Or, are these women really that good, and play even with Skylar and Lining?!?!

I really think this could be a good promotional opportunity. It could promote the sport of pool, fargorate, and women, all to the pool bangers and the general population. Maybe someone with clout like Matchroom can put this together? Match up the world top 5 women by fargorate with the equivalent rating fargorate men. Do it just like mosconi style, 5 persons teams, short race, team and individual format. I think it could be a great hit.

I know everyone on AZ at least will be watching it.
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Well, if you did it, you would apparently need to match the men with the equivalent women minus 50 Fargo points, or the men would annihilate the women.
 
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overlord said:
From close to the start of this thread there has been two parallel discussions going on. One is the difference between the sexes the other is the Fargo Rate.



You ignore the former and go on and on about the latter.
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Throughout this conversation, you have rejected the idea that the conversation is about the link between those two ideas. "Does the Fargorate mean that women can play with men". You may recall that the original post was specifically about the Fargorate score of a top women player. The ensuing conversation is specifically about what that piece of information (the Fargorate) indicates about the level of women's play. If you refuse to involve yourself in a component half of the conversation, it may feel as you describe.

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
 
Rhea said:
Why? I would assume that having breast augmentation would actually interfere with the way she plays already. I am only guessing since I have no experience with cosmetic surgeries
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The implication is that Jeannette makes the money she does not because of her pool playing, but because of her looks. Hard to dispute that.

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
 
On the age thing, you guys are smoking the good stuff if you don't think pool performance begins to decline after about mid 30's, drops off even more in the 40's, and drops off a TON in the 50's.

Yes, there will always be exceptions. But that's all they are, exceptions.

You can look at the major events, that have the best players (not local regional events that might have one or two pros, and 50 amateurs, the older pros will still win those). If we looked at every WPA world championship held since the WPA came out in 1990 or so, and look at every winner, and make a graph of their ages, then you will have real world data to show what age range is best for winning major events. I'd wager late 20's to early 30's would be the most won.
 
Also on age, Karen Corr's prime was in the 1990's, in her 20's, when she won 4 world snooker championships.

From her wikipedia page:
On the day after her 21st birthday, Karen won her first Women's World Snooker Championship. She would go on to repeat that feat 1991, 1995 and 1997. She also won three World English Billiards championships.

She switched to pool in 1998 in the USA.

By 2007 when the beginning of her Fargorate recordings exist, I don't believe she was as good as she was in 1998 to 2001 or so when she was winning practically every tour stop on the WPBA.
 
Is anyone considering the fact that Siming Chen is performing at this high level with the current WPA break and rules and a shot clock for every match? That does add a little extra difficulty to the eqation but by no means am I saying she's better than most american pro's but she is most definitely on par with the majority at a mere 23 years old.
 
Tony_in_MD said:
I wish I was 44 again.

;)
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I guess getting older is better than the alternative!

For real though, from about age 38 until 42, I went from a B player to an A player. Won a Predator event as an A with 98 players. Got bumped to an A+. Pretty much started about the time I started going regularly to Snookers in RI for their weekly tourney. Being exposed to those pros and open players sure helps.

I am in very good health for my age, terrible physical condition though lol. I keep a good outlook and try to learn something every time I go to the pool table. Also, I try to help others with their pool games, which helps my own game. Hate to say at 44 I might see the first signs of a slight dip. I'm gonna try and push through it though! We'll see.

KMRUNOUT
 
KMRUNOUT said:
I guess getting older is better than the alternative!

For real though, from about age 38 until 42, I went from a B player to an A player. Won a Predator event as an A with 98 players. Got bumped to an A+. Pretty much started about the time I started going regularly to Snookers in RI for their weekly tourney. Being exposed to those pros and open players sure helps.

I am in very good health for my age, terrible physical condition though lol. I keep a good outlook and try to learn something every time I go to the pool table. Also, I try to help others with their pool games, which helps my own game. Hate to say at 44 I might see the first signs of a slight dip. I'm gonna try and push through it though! We'll see.

KMRUNOUT
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Just imagine if you started doing that when you were 30 :p
 
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