Siming Chen

Positively Ralf said:
If a male and female get the same schooling/lessons from teachers on how to play this game, the male is not going to come out with some sort of secret that will make him better than the female.

But that's just the way I have looked at this argument since I've come back to playing pool and seeing so many people have this conversation.
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Sorry, your answers are just to simple for complex human nature. Lets see, lets teach Johnny how to shoot a rifle and Suzi how to shoot a rifle. And then drop them both off in the middle of Iraq with a group of insurgents coming at them full bore.

The outcome should be exactly the same, correct? I mean, they both shoot pretty sporty, what would help one over the other?
 
ChicagoRJ said:
Sorry, your answers are just to simple for complex human nature. Lets see, lets teach Johnny how to shoot a rifle and Suzi how to shoot a rifle. And then drop them both off in the middle of Iraq with a group of insurgents coming at them full bore.

The outcome should be exactly the same, correct? I mean, they both shoot pretty sporty, what would help one over the other?
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Why wouldn't that outcome be the same?
 
mikepage said:
I am curious...

When you look at the record below against top western women, what male pro would you expect to get about these results?

Would Johnny or Oscar or Corey be expected to outrun this performance?

How about Shuff or Wilkie?

Recognize that in 2010 and 2011 Siming was younger than Chezka is now.
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Mike, I really like when you show these head to head comparisons. Are there any plans to make an update to the website that would add this, and other functionality, to the end users (us)? Thank you.
 
Positively Ralf said:
Thank you for missing the entire point of my post. I never asked for the differences between male and female anatomies or how different men live their lives compared to females.

and yes, I still stand by what I say. This is not tennis, football, soccer or bowling. Literally, the only difference between a male and female pool player is how much power is generated at the break. If a male and female get the same schooling/lessons from teachers on how to play this game, the male is not going to come out with some sort of secret that will make him better than the female.

But that's just the way I have looked at this argument since I've come back to playing pool and seeing so many people have this conversation.
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I think you missed his entire point :confused:. Literally, there are thousands of differences, other than the break. He tried to show you, and you just blew it off lol. Amazing :thumbup:.
The way they live their lives, the anatomies, etc, are the huge differences. A woman's brain does not think like a man's. Her hormones & emotions are completely different. All these things matter just as much as strength. For some reason you fail to see the big picture. I will post this again in case you missed it the first time.


http://www.healthline.com/health-news/mental-mens-and-womens-brains-wired-differently-120713#4
 
highkarate said:
Are you talking about wayne and jenny? we must know each other...
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I really don't like to talk about players in the rooms I play in. I mentioned Dana at the old Hollywood Billiards and those that knew him, know that he long ago retired from the game.

He was one hell of a pool player. Dana did not suffer those that knocked his action.

I don't know what happened to him.

I am gonna make a one time special dispensation regarding One Pocket in Santa Monica.

I was referring to Richard and his wife playing. I've watched this phenomena many times.
 
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mikepage said:
I am curious...

When you look at the record below against top western women, what male pro would you expect to get about these results?

Would Johnny or Oscar or Corey be expected to outrun this performance?

How about Shuff or Wilkie?

Recognize that in 2010 and 2011 Siming was younger than Chezka is now.
Click to expand...

I would like to ask you again. Is Miss Chen a " free range " player like players are in the West?

This may not be comparing apples to apples.
 
overlord said:
I would like to ask you again. Is Miss Chen a " free range " player like players are in the West?

This may not be comparing apples to apples.
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She could have been abducted by aliens and taught to play pool on Tralfamadore for all I know...

We may be comparing apples to kryptonite
 
mikepage said:
She could have been abducted by aliens and taught to play pool on Tralfamadore for all I know...

We may be comparing apples to kryptonite
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Good answer. Folks in the west are gonna have problems with playing against the entire state apparatus of China.

I know one thing the US ain't gonna back pool players in a million years.
 
mikepage said:
lol....Let's keep on this "dropped in Iraq with charging insurgents" tangent because I'm pretty sure common understanding and enlightenment is right around the corner....
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It's actually quite easy to understand, but it's not PC, so why go there. I will just let it be ;)
 
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mikepage said:
I am curious...

When you look at the record below against top western women, what male pro would you expect to get about these results?

Would Johnny or Oscar or Corey be expected to outrun this performance?

How about Shuff or Wilkie?

Recognize that in 2010 and 2011 Siming was younger than Chezka is now.
Click to expand...

Mr Page, I've followed this thread post for post and I will say you have brought many examples and information to the debate. Fargo Rate is impressive, even in terms of the amount of data collected and stored in one place.

On the OP's original statement that there are only 40 humans better than Chen (I assume OP is basing this off Fargo Rate scores)...

You admitted that there is zero data in the Fargo Rate system for Chen playing men.

So we can't isolate on just those matches, for we do not have any data.

1. Would you agree that to state Chen is better than everyone on the planet except 40 humans is a stretch, in light of zero matches vs men data?

And also...

In a major open tournament, when one loses early, there is a serious grind in order to make it into Sunday from the loser side bracket.
I watched Mike Dechaine lose his first match, and then play non stop for the next three days to make it to the finals. He was absolutely exhausted afterwards.
I've watched world beaters like Ko pin Yi and Shane be undefeated for three days and just lose back to back Saturday night, not even making it into Sunday.

If Chen is not regularly playing in these conditions, and finds herself in finals and quarterfinals with ease...

2. Isn't the data different from men's and women's tournaments on the fact of sheer competition and grind...So players like Shuff and Wilkie find themselves locked into a rating that if they played major tournaments with lesser talent, they would have more success, more matches, more sound mind and clarity and therefore a higher score?


Karen Corr is a good example for you because she has so much data playing both men's and women's tournaments. until Chen had the same amount of data in the system, we have to agree the OP's original post has no merit.

I suppose there could be a female player vs male player "robustness" score.
The more opens men's tournaments she plays, the more clear conclusion we can draw in hypothetical debates like this.
 
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Cardigan Kid said:
Mr Page, I've followed this thread post for post and I will say you have brought many examples and information to the debate. Fargo Rate is impressive, even in terms of the amount of data collected and stored in one place.

On the OP's original statement that there are only 40 humans better than Chen (I assume OP is basing this off Fargo Rate scores)...

You admitted that there is zero data in the Fargo Rate system for Chen playing men.

So we can't isolate on just those matches, for we do not have any data.

1. Would you agree that to state Chen is better than everyone on the planet except 40 humans is a stretch, in light of zero matches vs men data?

And also...

In a major open tournament, when one loses early, there is a serious grind in order to make it into Sunday from the loser side bracket.
I watched Mike Dechaine lose his first match, and then play non stop for the next three days to make it to the finals. He was absolutely exhausted afterwards.
I've watched world beaters like Ko pin Yi and Shane be undefeated for three days and just lose back to back Saturday night, not even making it into Sunday.

If Chen is not regularly playing in these conditions, and finds herself in finals and quarterfinals with ease...

2. Isn't the data different from men's and women's tournaments on the fact of sheer competition and grind...So players like Shuff and Wilkie find themselves locked into a rating that if they played major tournaments with lesser talent, they would have more success, more matches, more sound mind and clarity and therefore a higher score?


Karen Corr is a good example for you because she has so much data playing both men's and women's tournaments. until Chen had the same amount of data in the system, we have to agree the OP's original post has no merit.

I suppose there could be a female player vs male player "robustness" score.
The more opens men's tournaments she plays, the more clear conclusion we can draw in hypothetical debates like this.
Click to expand...

However we all know Chen is much better than Karen so it gives a pretty good idea how good she is

1
 
Cardigan Kid said:
Mr Page, I've followed this thread post for post and I will say you have brought many examples and information to the debate. Fargo Rate is impressive, even in terms of the amount of data collected and stored in one place.

On the OP's original statement that there are only 40 humans better than Chen (I assume OP is basing this off Fargo Rate scores)...

You admitted that there is zero data in the Fargo Rate system for Chen playing men.

So we can't isolate on just those matches, for we do not have any data.

1. Would you agree that to state Chen is better than everyone on the planet except 40 humans is a stretch, in light of zero matches vs men data?
Click to expand...

Yes and no. My best guess is that is about where she is. But top XX is a pretty sensitive function of rating. So top 40 sounds like a long way from top 80. But it really isn't. There are only 15 points that separate top 40 and top 80. So we can't really say with any real confidence "there are only 40 blah blah blah...." On the other hand her being in this crowd is not an illusion.

Also, I'm less bothered by the no matches against men. I think the top women are pretty well coupled to the top men.

In a major open tournament, when one loses early, there is a serious grind in order to make it into Sunday from the loser side bracket.
I watched Mike Dechaine lose his first match, and then play non stop for the next three days to make it to the finals. He was absolutely exhausted afterwards.
I've watched world beaters like Ko pin Yi and Shane be undefeated for three days and just lose back to back Saturday night, not even making it into Sunday.

If Chen is not regularly playing in these conditions, and finds herself in finals and quarterfinals with ease...
Click to expand...

Yes, she could be not used to grinding it out; she could shark herself about playing against the top men--all these things are possible. It could be she'd have to get over some things before performing at her potential.
But it's also true men could have a harder time playing against her, especially if she gets a lead...

2. Isn't the data different from men's and women's tournaments on the fact of sheer competition and grind...So players like Shuff and Wilkie find themselves locked into a rating that if they played major tournaments with lesser talent, they would have more success, more matches, more sound mind and clarity and therefore a higher score?
Click to expand...

I think no.

Karen Corr is a good example for you because she has so much data playing both men's and women's tournaments. until Chen had the same amount of data in the system, we have to agree the OP's original post has no merit.
Click to expand...

Again, I think the women are pretty well coupled to the men. A little caution with the statements is fine, but I think this over-states the case...

I suppose there could be a female player vs male player "robustness" score.
The more opens men's tournaments she plays, the more clear conclusion we can draw in hypothetical debates like this.
Click to expand...

You are thinking that she herself need to play against members of the other group for her rating to be properly coupled. There just needs to be significant mixing between members of her group, international-level-women to members of the other group, international-level men. This is similar to a 600-level player in Arizona being the same speed as a 600-level player in Massachusetts, even though neither travels to the other state. Just need sufficient coupling through others.
 
iusedtoberich said:
With all of this talk of the top women... here is Siming Chen vs Centeno Chezka from 2017:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwSCk64TnH8

PS, they both stroke like men, with a pronounced elbow drop. Maybe that is why they are so good! ha ha ha
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Some of the shot selections in that first rack were pretty bad.

And to me that's the biggest difference.

Men (on average) tend to just make better choices at the table than women. Like that last shot Chen took on the 8 ball that left Centeno a fairly easy bank into the side pocket.

Just look at all of the male players within 10 points of Chen's Fargo rating, and tell me which of them would shoot the 8 ball that poorly?
 
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Mike Page,

A few things I noticed on your site

1. The top 100 list has Siming Chen at a 783, but the top 10 list has her at a 774.

2. From the main page at fargorate.com, there is a link you can click "Search for Player Ratings". This will take you to http://fairmatch.fargorate.com/ which has most of the features of the site. Except for the top 100 list. In order to see the top 100 list, you'd have to go back to fargorate.com, but there is no direct link. There's a home button at the bottom, but it doesn't do anything.


Not sure if you actually designed the website, but just wanted to bring it to your attention. Thanks
 
BeiberLvr said:
Some of the shot selections in that first rack were pretty bad.

And to me that's the biggest difference.

Men (on average) tend to just make better choices at the table than women. Like that last shot Chen took on the 8 ball that left Centeno a fairly easy bank into the side pocket.

Just look at all of the male players within 10 points of Chen's Fargo rating, and tell me which of them would shoot the 8 ball that poorly?
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Mind you it's a WPA event with a shot clock I think at that point in the match she was flustered Chens play got better as the match progressed,, you ought to look at Albin and Shane in the finals of the TOC to see the shots they dogged it was pretty comical,
I'll add to this how many matches Iv seen pro's play I thought dam I play that good or I can make that shot , then I step into live bullets and it's a far different story

1
 
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