Siming Chen

Since I am more interested in the battle of the sexes aspect of the discussion, I will leave the numbers crunching to Mike P..

Last night I was talking to a great player and a guy I respect and I was relating to him the dust up on AZ over male vrs female players.

He shared a story with me about a female Chinese player named Chen, that played a Pinoy pro, for the money, at a San Fernando Valley CA., pool hall that no longer is extant.

The Pinoy pro was "Santos ", the woman was " Jennifer Chen ", a top ten rated female pro.

To get JC into the match Santos had to give up weight which he did, the action was 2k a set.

JC loses the first set and asks for more weight and Santos grants the request. Then JC loses the next set.

JC petitions Santos for even more weight. Santos decides to roll with it. JC loses the third set.

At this point JC is in a state of emotional discomfort. She starts crying, the match is over. Santos is a very fine player but he is not an elite world competitor or in the top rank of male players.

Jennifer Chen was a top ten in the world ranked female, at the time of the action match.

These are the fact as related to me. What does this all mean? You be the judge.

It means that Santos is likely to have a higher fargorate than Jennifer.

KMRUNOUT
 
You don't think this might have anything to do with the demise of the WPBA? There really aren't any pro women's events anymore really.

I've watched Karen play for decades. She plays pretty sporty these days...at least as well as before. Her break has improved *dramatically*.

In short, the money list on AZ really tells us *nothing* about Karen's ability level.

KMRUNOUT



She's 47.

There are certain requirements needed to play this game at a high level that will decline with age.

Vision
Hand eye coordination
Endurance


She's past her prime. Every player at her age or older is past their prime. For the record, being past your prime is not the same as saying you can't play well anymore.
 
She's 47.

There are certain requirements needed to play this game at a high level that will decline with age.

Vision
Hand eye coordination
Endurance


She's past her prime. Every player at her age or older is past their prime. For the record, being past your prime is not the same as saying you can't play well anymore.

Efren was Karen's current age in 2002.

Who is to say minor negatives from vision/endurance, etc cannot be balanced by minor positives from knowledge/experience, etc.

If we go into watching Karen play thinking

--she's not as good because she's a woman
--she doesn't make as good decisions because she is a woman
--she is performing at a lower level than she use to because of her age

then we risk preferentially noticing things that confirm those... This is a separate issue from whether they are true.

I think we just need to look at Karen's results and avoid trying to put them in boxes. The results are the results...
 

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Efren was Karen's current age in 2002.

Who is to say minor negatives from vision/endurance, etc cannot be balanced by minor positives from knowledge/experience, etc.

If we go into watching Karen play thinking

--she's not as good because she's a woman
--she doesn't make as good decisions because she is a woman
--she is performing at a lower level than she use to because of her age

then we risk preferentially noticing things that confirm those... This is a separate issue from whether they are true.

I think we just need to look at Karen's results and avoid trying to put them in boxes. The results are the results...


Karen at 47 would lose to Karen at 37. It doesn't mean that Karen at 47 is a bad player.

I fail to see the problem with saying someone is past their prime when it happens in all sports.
 
You keep going on and on about women that are not Siming, you might as well replace that with APA 6, or any other thing you want cause it has NO bearing on this discussion
Jason

From close to the start of this thread there has been two parallel discussions going on. One is the difference between the sexes the other is the Fargo Rate.

You ignore the former and go on and on about the latter.
 
Santos Sambajon and Jennifer Chen are in FargoRate despite their relative inactivity for many years. Santos is 731 and Jennifer 650. If those ratings (or their difference) are anything like they would have been at the time of the match you mentioned, then you can understand why Santos was a huge favorite. And 650 is a long, long way from Siming Chen's current 783.

[Jennifer Barretta is 650 currently.]

The parties understood that Chen was an underdog playing even that is why weight was given and then more and more weight.

Notwithstanding Fargo this is fairly easily understood.
 
Wins against higher rated opponents are weighted more than wins against low rated opponents. For Shane's fargorate to go up playing very weak competition, he would have to shut them out pretty much every time. That is not likely to happen.

KMRUNOUT

What is amazing is that it happens at about the same rate as him exceeding his expectation against good competition. It is worth spending a minute trying to understand this chart. It is Rory Hendrickson's games against the lowest-rated established opponents. Rory is a 731; he plays at Karen Corr's speed. I use him because we have a ton of games for him.

The 1 to 0 scores here are league games. Then there are a few tournament matches, like 8 to 0 or 9 to 1.

Let me explain the columns. After the match score, there is the opponent's rating, then Rory's cumulative wine to that point and then the total number of games to that point. The last column is what Rory's Fargo Rating would be considering all the games up to that point.

You will notice Rory wins the first 23 games. So up to that point our best guess of his rating is infinity--we can't distinguish him from a god... Then he loses a game and the first real rating for him is 797 --about Justin Bergman's speed. Justing would be expected to keep up this win 32 out of 33 record against this competition.

Twenty games later Rory loses another couple games. You can see that by the bottom here, Rory has only played opponents that average about 400 points below him, and his record of 69 wins and 4 losses is enough information to suggest Rory (if we didn't know him) is likely shortstop or pro speed.
 

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Karen at 47 would lose to Karen at 37. It doesn't mean that Karen at 47 is a bad player.

I fail to see the problem with saying someone is past their prime when it happens in all sports.

There is not a problem in saying it; it's not like we are only ALLOWED to say things that are supported by the evidence

Florida winters are colder than New York winters... There. That felt kinda good ;-)
 
Overloard - great story.

Jennifer lost more than that in Asia.

"Jennifer Chen has come forth to explain her alleged debt.

In her latest press conference held on 19th Nov 2006 in Japan, she also explained why she was away from Taiwan, what caused her to disappear, and her plan for her future."

On the brighter side, the Texas Tornado traveled to Hawaiian Brian's and had to mail her thousands $$$ winnings home for fear of customs inspectors.

At Hard Times, Jeanette Lee and Aileen Pippen challenged Butch to play on a bar table and busted him for around a thousand - he later told me that it was child support money. They travelled to Gilroy, CA with Chamat and cleaned up there as well. Allison Fisher, her BFF then and Helena Thornfeldt got their start there as well.

Jeanette showed up at Hard Times flat but after winning against the boys, she was no longer flat - the rest is history.

".According to George, Lee earned approximately $650,000 in 2007. And, with more revenue already contracted for 2008 from existing marketing deals than her total earnings from '07, and nine months to arrange yet more work, George estimates that Lee will likely top the $800,000 mark in '08 earnings.

In fact, George expects Lee to net more than $1 million a year from marketing deals in the near future. ...

http://www.billiardsdigest.com/new_current_issue/apr_08/

It is instructive and indeed highlights what I've been saying all along, that there is a difference between the sexes.

Men are judged on ability in sports and women can gain fame and fortune in a sport based on their looks.

The " Black Widow " was never the top woman player that I recall but she's the most famous personality in the game and out earns all the players.

Efren can't make a a ton of cash posing in a Speedo poolside, going to the bank marketing his sex appeal.

The Fargo Rate is predicated on a system that was used to rate the game of Chess. That is what was manifested to me by a forum member.

The difference between Chess and the game of Nine Ball is, Chess contains no luck at all and you can't say that about Nine Ball.
 
Incidently, Siming Chen surpassed Antonio Lining today to mark her spot as the number 40 highest skilled pool player in the world. Congratulations Siming Chen
 
There is not a problem in saying it; it's not like we are only ALLOWED to say things that are supported by the evidence

Florida winters are colder than New York winters... There. That felt kinda good ;-)


Do you understand the phrase, "past their prime"?

Do you understand the meaning of the word, "prime" in reference to athletes?
 
Incidently, Siming Chen surpassed Antonio Lining today to mark her spot as the number 40 highest skilled pool player in the world. Congratulations Siming Chen

Lmfao the queen of troll strikes again ,,, the system is obviously flawed ,,



1
 
Interesting, what leagues provide data for Fargorate?


What is amazing is that it happens at about the same rate as him exceeding his expectation against good competition. It is worth spending a minute trying to understand this chart. It is Rory Hendrickson's games against the lowest-rated established opponents. Rory is a 731; he plays at Karen Corr's speed. I use him because we have a ton of games for him.

The 1 to 0 scores here are league games. Then there are a few tournament matches, like 8 to 0 or 9 to 1.

Let me explain the columns. After the match score, there is the opponent's rating, then Rory's cumulative wine to that point and then the total number of games to that point. The last column is what Rory's Fargo Rating would be considering all the games up to that point.

You will notice Rory wins the first 23 games. So up to that point our best guess of his rating is infinity--we can't distinguish him from a god... Then he loses a game and the first real rating for him is 797 --about Justin Bergman's speed. Justing would be expected to keep up this win 32 out of 33 record against this competition.

Twenty games later Rory loses another couple games. You can see that by the bottom here, Rory has only played opponents that average about 400 points below him, and his record of 69 wins and 4 losses is enough information to suggest Rory (if we didn't know him) is likely shortstop or pro speed.
 
Lmfao the queen of troll strikes again ,,, the system is obviously flawed ,,



1

FargoRate is not flawed, you will bite your own tongue in the future when Siming Chen, Han Yu and Chezka all get to be among the top 30 in the world and prove it. I am of the opinion that Siming Chen already currently plays well above Jean Balukas speed when Jean was in her prime!
 
FargoRate is not flawed, you will bite your own tongue in the future when Siming Chen, Han Yu and Chezka all get to be among the top 30 in the world and prove it. I am of the opinion that Siming Chen already currently plays well above Jean Balukas speed when Jean was in her prime!

Just food for thought, since the Black Widow makes the pittance that Chen collects from tournament winnings look diminutive: would you counsel Miss Chen to have breast augmentation?
 
Just food for thought, since the Black Widow makes the pittance that Chen collects from tournament winnings look diminutive: would you counsel Miss Chen to have breast augmentation?

Why? I would assume that having breast augmentation would actually interfere with the way she plays already. I am only guessing since I have no experience with cosmetic surgeries
 
From close to the start of this thread there has been two parallel discussions going on. One is the difference between the sexes the other is the Fargo Rate.

You ignore the former and go on and on about the latter.

I would say there are three parallel discussions

(1) Would Siming Chen compete amongst the men at the level her Fargo Rating suggests?

(2) Is the observed big performance gap between men and women dominated by nature or nurture --that is, which plays a bigger role: biological differences that can't change, or environmental/social issues that can.

(3) Do men play better than women?

I'd say you are the only participant in the third one.
 
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