Simonis 960

Greg/Diamond

Greg/Diamond

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I had a chance to speak with Ivan of simonis for the second time at the Mosoni cup about creating a slower cloth to be used on the 7 ft. Tables. This new cloth would be called 960. This has been in discussion for over a year and I'll have to see where it goes. I feel that with the smaller distance for the ball to travel on a 7ft a slower cloth would be better. I don't mind responses. Maybe Ivan would be more inclined to try the 960 idea if I wasn't alone in this opinion.
 
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i agree i don't play much bar box! Another thing to consider is standardizing the rubber cushions! It stinks going from one type cushion or material to another!!!

kd
 
I have been a bar box player for 50+ years and have been saying for years that 760 and 860 are way too fast for 7' tables. even when put on a Valley BB it's too fast and if you add Ridgeback rails to it...forget about it. I would love to try this 960 cloth if ever made. Thanks for the info Greg. Johnnyt
 
I have been a bar box player for 50+ years and have been saying for years that 760 and 860 are way too fast for 7' tables. even when put on a Valley BB it's too fast and if you add Ridgeback rails to it...forget about it. I would love to try this 960 cloth if ever made. Thanks for the info Greg. Johnnyt
 
We have 8 Diamond BB here where I live. The Club House Bar & Billiards is the name of it. These tables are fast. It went about a years & a half between covering and they never slowed down. It takes a different kind of stroke to play on them for sure. Just about all the tables around here have simonis 860 HR on them. Even the Valley BB have it. Most have adjusted but agree a little slower cloth would be better for the game on the BB. Hopefully it will work out.
 
Greg that would be wonderful.

The fast cloth takes so much away from the game anyhow.
It punishes players with good strokes. The slower the better on 9fts as well. I would fill my whole pool room with it,, if I had one. I hate seeing someone with no stroke run out because shape becomes so easy to get, from the cloth being so fast.
 
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Silly in some aspect and brilliant in others.... Depends on who's holding the cue....
I like simonis but I don't like the ol rope around the neck move they've thrown on the market for their cloth.

Rob.M
 
Greg/Diamond said:
I had a chance to speak with Ivan of simonis for the second time at the Mosoni cup about creating a slower cloth to be used on the 7 ft. Tables. This new cloth would be called 960. This has been in discussion for over a year and I'll have to see where it goes. I feel that with the smaller distance for the ball to travel on a 7ft a slower cloth would be better. I don't mind responses. Maybe Ivan would be more inclined to try the 960 idea if I wasn't alone in this opinion.
Click to expand...

Greg, I'm having a hard time expressing what I'm trying to say here... I've deleted 4 different versions of this post, so I'll just say it kinda straight.

I shoot on bar boxes because that's what's in most places. When I go play a tournament, such as the Derby, I'm going to be playing on 9' tables with 860 cloth. I want to practice on the same cloth as I'm going to be playing on when that tournament comes around, otherwise my speed is going to be all screwed up. What this sounds like is just another way for Diamond and Simonis to tell people "YOU NEED THIS" even though they don't.

For years I shot on Championship cloth. Then everyone was saying "Oh, that's so SLOW! Simonis 860 is where it's at!" Now, the person that designed Simonis 860 is telling me that 860 is too fast for a bar box, so I should support this new cloth.

Tell me... Why would I want to shoot on 960 over 860, when 860 is the "gold standard"? You said yourself that you helped design 860 because 760 was too fast, and now you're saying that a 7' table should play slower than a 9' table. Are you going to come out with a 910 for the 8' tables next? Are you going to put 760 on the Bigfoot because it should play faster than a 9'? Or will 760 not be fast enough, so we have to go to 660 on a 10 foot?

I guess what I'm asking is, why do you think that a 7' table should play slower than a 9' table? Shouldn't it be the idea to get them all to play as close to identical as possible?
 
I would like it. I play at the SBE every year and the tables are too fast. I think a slower though still worsted cloth would be great!

KMRUNOUT
 
Finally!!!

Every barbox I've played on that had Simonis has been waaaaay too fast. I end up just gently bunting the ball around all night and I wonder what happened to actually stroking a ball.

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't want to go back to the days of fuzzy, nap cloth that looks like felt from a craft store. I just know there has to be a "standard cloth" for the barbox out there somewhere.

I'd see if Simonis would come up with a batch of cloth and debut them on a handful of action barboxes at an event like the 2015 DCC. Pull some heavy hitting players aside and encourage them to spend a few hours on one to see what they think. Do the same with some knowledgeable amateurs and get a broad base of opinion.

I feel like it's a winning idea.
 
I'm going to emphatically encourage you to develop the 960 for the very reasons mentioned above. I would buy it for my seven footer in a heartbeat if available soon.

Still love the 860 for my nine foot diamond though.

Oh yeah, you sir are the man!!!
 
There are a lot of reasons a lot of players like the super fast cloth, but the # 1 reason IMO is they never played on anything else and think faster is better. I'm use to it now that I've played on it for 2 months just about everyday, but that don't mean I like. As far as getting your speed right from table to table...it don't take long to figure it out by a good player. My Bar Box is outside on a screened in patio in FL. with a hot tub 8' from it. The table on most days changes 5 or 6 times in 12 hours. Johnnyt
 
Most 7' tables around here play too fast. On my home table, I found an easy solution...just don't stretch the cloth so blame tight! My cloth is not "loose", but not stretched as tight as I can get it. It plays what I consider "perfectly" speed-wise. Especially the rails, too many try and see how tight they can stretch it. Bad move.

Sometimes, the simplest solution is the best one.
 
Greg/Diamond said:
I had a chance to speak with Ivan of simonis for the second time at the Mosoni cup about creating a slower cloth to be used on the 7 ft. Tables. This new cloth would be called 960. This has been in discussion for over a year and I'll have to see where it goes. I feel that with the smaller distance for the ball to travel on a 7ft a slower cloth would be better. I don't mind responses. Maybe Ivan would be more inclined to try the 960 idea if I wasn't alone in this opinion.
Click to expand...

860 is great with the blue logo tops Greg (you have a winner with the blue logo tops, BTW).... Not sure, but the old red logo tops may benefit from slower cloth, especially the rails.

Way back in the Cornfed Red days we were one of the first rooms I know of that switched to Simonis on BB's. Masden thought I was really making a mistake when I told him to do it but the simple truth is that it did just what I thought it would; more balls went on the break, games went faster (especially with rail bangers), people felt better about their game and in the end we made more money because quarters were dropping faster. Just my opinion from a business stand point, but I think slower cloth is bad for operators. As a player, I still think I would prefer 860. BUT, you were the brains behind 860 so you may be on to something......
 
Good players can adjust to any cloth. Good players on the 9 foot tables, can move the CB almost anywhere with finesse.

Fast cloth on the small tables doesn't bother good players. For bangers the problem with fast cloth is just hitting too hard. IMHO

A different match up of rail rubber and cloths, for CB roll distances on different sizes of tables, might be a solution though.
 
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960 simonis

rezin8 said:
Greg, I'm having a hard time expressing what I'm trying to say here... I've deleted 4 different versions of this post, so I'll just say it kinda straight.

I shoot on bar boxes because that's what's in most places. When I go play a tournament, such as the Derby, I'm going to be playing on 9' tables with 860 cloth. I want to practice on the same cloth as I'm going to be playing on when that tournament comes around, otherwise my speed is going to be all screwed up. What this sounds like is just another way for Diamond and Simonis to tell people "YOU NEED THIS" even though they don't.

For years I shot on Championship cloth. Then everyone was saying "Oh, that's so SLOW! Simonis 860 is where it's at!" Now, the person that designed Simonis 860 is telling me that 860 is too fast for a bar box, so I should support this new cloth.

Tell me... Why would I want to shoot on 960 over 860, when 860 is the "gold standard"? You said yourself that you helped design 860 because 760 was too fast, and now you're saying that a 7' table should play slower than a 9' table. Are you going to come out with a 910 for the 8' tables next? Are you going to put 760 on the Bigfoot because it should play faster than a 9'? Or will 760 not be fast enough, so we have to go to 660 on a 10 foot?

I guess what I'm asking is, why do you think that a 7' table should play slower than a 9' table? Shouldn't it be the idea to get them all to play as close to identical as possible?
Click to expand...

I posted this thread to express my personal opinions and i realize what I'm thinking may not be right but i think it should be investigated.
When i developed the speed of the 860 i wasn't thinking of any size table other than a nine footer. Now after seeing it on a 7ft as well as a 10 foot I think improvements could be made. If I were to make a 6 by 12 table I would first try the 760 simonis.
I just finished playing some pool tonight on a 9 ft. Diamond at ed Scotts house in Phoenix. His cloth was put on rather loosely resulting in much slower bed speed than I'm used to. however of course I made adjustments, but couldn't help thinking this speed would be better on a 7ft.

I understand what you are saying about wanting to practice on a 7ft with simonis because you plan on playing on simonis on a 9 ft but I'm looking to make your experience better on the 7 ft. Not just as a way to practice the bed speed of 860.

The speed of the 860 remains the same one any size table. If you exaggerate the playing dimensions to say a 2 by 4 ft or a 20 by 40 you can see the game would change not resembling what I think of as pool. All I'm saying is that we.should test a slower speed and see where that take us. We may find out we also might be better off with a slower rubber, however I don't have an in with a rubber company at this time experiment with ,yet. And I don't know at this time if it's needed.
 
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