Simonis 960

Greg/Diamond said:
Of course a room owner or vendor has the right to use any cloth they want, but I'm not convince that a marginally slower cloth will result in less coin drop. In fact it might be just the opposite. A somewhat slower cloth may allow for a more controlled cue ball resulting in more balls pocketed and more racks run. Also more players who like slower cloth and are enjoying themselves may play more often and longer. I say needs to be tested.

On another note many 7ft tables are on time. Especially in pool rooms with leagues. Where enjoyment means more.
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Normally I would agree with most rooms are on time. But the ones that I have been servicing the last several years are not. At least not during leagues. Shooters just went to open tables in the BCA league on one night about 8 weeks ago. Every other night is quarters. I think it does need to be tested. Just to see what happens. I personally would like a little slower cloth on bar tables. Time will tell.. Either way thanks for putting forth the effort to make the game better!!

One more thing. We all know room owners dont make money off of the good players. They make money off the leagues and bangers. That is why the faster the better.. For the pool rooms.
 
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The bar tables I play on are rarely level and fast cloth just makes it a game of "poke and hope".

I would be interested in trying the slower cloth, especially if you put two tables side-by-side to really compare the two.
 
I like slower cloth on the bar table and think it is an excellent idea. I think the Diamond 7 foot tables play great but the speed is just too fast. I do like the 860 on the 9 foot tables.
 
CreeDo said:
The game is infinitely easier on slower cloth. You can hold any cut, you don't overrun shape,
you don't need much touch.....You need very good touch to move the cue ball with precision on fast cloth in tight quarters,
where being a few inches off can leave you hooked or way too thin.

I'm in the minority but I have no problem with a fast barbox. I enjoy a finesse game.
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860 has no business being on a 7 ft table. It takes away too much of the game, too much of the shot selection, and too many of the patterns.

You actually have your argument backwards. Those with the better cue ball control, and with more creativity, and with more knowledge do better on a cloth with a more reasonable speed because their shot selection and patterns are not being artificially limited. Lesser players prefer fast cloth because it takes away a lot of a better players arsenal and is somewhat of an equalizer.

ANY shot or position play or pattern that is available on a fast table is also available on a table that is slower but still has a reasonable speed, you just may have to hit harder or use a little more stroke at times. But the same can't be said in reverse. A large portion of the way to play shots or patterns or get position on a slower table simply cannot be done on a very fast table. A fast table limits too many of the options available to the better player and handicaps them.

Seven foot tables should not have super fast cloth that takes away half the game and handicaps the better players. We need something a little slower that is still worsted and has no nap.
 
Poolplaya9 said:
860 has no business being on a 7 ft table. It takes away too much of the game, too much of the shot selection, and too many of the patterns.

You actually have your argument backwards. Those with the better cue ball control, and with more creativity, and with more knowledge do better on a cloth with a more reasonable speed because their shot selection and patterns are not being artificially limited. Lesser players prefer fast cloth because it takes away a lot of a better players arsenal and is somewhat of an equalizer.

ANY shot or position play or pattern that is available on a fast table is also available on a table that is slower but still has a reasonable speed, you just may have to hit harder or use a little more stroke at times. But the same can't be said in reverse. A large portion of the way to play shots or patterns or get position on a slower table simply cannot be done on a very fast table. A fast table limits too many of the options available to the better player and handicaps them.

Seven foot tables should not have super fast cloth that takes away half the game and handicaps the better players. We need something a little slower that is still worsted and has no nap.
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I agree with your assessment 100%.
 
im definitely gonna agree with poolplaya9. we have mercury ultra on all the BB's at our local pool room. perfect speed for a bar table. its a hybrid cloth which is supposed to play like a worsted. id love to see some simonis that plays at the speed of the mercury ultra
 
Greg/Diamond said:
I had a chance to speak with Ivan of simonis for the second time at the Mosoni cup about creating a slower cloth to be used on the 7 ft. Tables. This new cloth would be called 960. This has been in discussion for over a year and I'll have to see where it goes. I feel that with the smaller distance for the ball to travel on a 7ft a slower cloth would be better. I don't mind responses. Maybe Ivan would be more inclined to try the 960 idea if I wasn't alone in this opinion.
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A top quality (Simonis) slower cloth is just what the 7' tables need. Make it happen Greg.
 
Whatever you decide to do Greg is FINE with me,and give you all the credit in the world for CARING about the game enough to even broach the subject :cool:.

This is how I see the debate on bar box cloth.

I honestly don't get to see much other than slow cloth,so ANY time I get to go to the closest place that uses Simonis,it's a GOOOD thing :thumbup:.

The closest spot with it is an hour away,a cool little jizzoint with 6 7 foot Diamond Smarts,and a nice GC-2,recovered 2 months ago? With highly polished balls,it's so much nicer than what I play on most often that I relish it,regardless of how slick and fast these rascals are,that I'd never complain about Simonis anywhere,esp not on a Diamond.

It WOULD be an interesting thing just to see what a well-installed napped but not rubber-backed cloth on a Diamond would play like.

In fact,I've never seen a Diamond that had anything but Simonis or Championship on it,period. The local vending company that owns all the ragged out bar tables around here was using some kind of sheer cloth that wasn't Simonis but played NICE if the table had good slate support and didn't roll all crazy,but has gone back to the old bottom-dollar napped and rubber-backed stuff,that wasn't even as good as it was 10 years ago.

If you decide to go thru with it,I can try and hook you up with his contact info,and I'd be more than happy to play on it and give you the best info I can,even on the table that is here,much less a 8 foot Diamond which is all the place has as far as a table where action takes place,LOL. Tommy D.
 
First off... GREAT idea. I would buy it for my 7ft no question.

I agree with the post about keeping the consistency of the game across the board. Allowing the player to keep the same stroke for the same leave rather then adjusting their game to the table size SOUNDS like a great idea.

Maybe I'm crazy...BUT... this game is very visual for me. My stroke adjusts subconsciously according to the distance between balls. When I play a 9ft, I automatically compensate when the cue ball has to travel another 2 ft, rail to rail. The visual distance is what I've grown to trust when feeling the correct stroke. I think this would be my only argument in favor of consistent bed speed. Maybe if this new cloth was introduced to my game, my subconscious would adjust accordingly.
 
Greg/Diamond said:
I had a chance to speak with Ivan of simonis for the second time at the Mosoni cup about creating a slower cloth to be used on the 7 ft. Tables. This new cloth would be called 960. This has been in discussion for over a year and I'll have to see where it goes. I feel that with the smaller distance for the ball to travel on a 7ft a slower cloth would be better. I don't mind responses. Maybe Ivan would be more inclined to try the 960 idea if I wasn't alone in this opinion.
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long overdue.

brilliant.

get-r-done.

thx,
brian kc
 
Way over due on the cloth... Players need to get the bar box rooms to get the rails fixed on the old Valley's and Diamonds and to get New competition pool balls. This sport needs a face lift real bad even in the small rooms and bars just as in the major tournys.

Randy.
 
Faster cloth favors the better players. Lightning fast cloth scares the lower level players and adversely affects their play. They have little clue about moving the cb for position anyway. I think you would find most lower level players would prefer slower tables.

The change I would recommend is the rails on 7 footers. I have a 9' Diamond and have played on others. The rails on the 7 footers don't seem to be near the same as they are on the 9 footers. I personally care less about the cloth speed, that is relatively easy to adjust to. Adjusting to the rails is a whole other matter.

I would add, I think you should consider decreasing the depth of the pocket shelves on the 7 footers. That's where the real difference is with a valley. I own a bar with 9 7 foot valleys. When we were deciding which tables to use, the apa was the deciding factor. It was a business decision versus better table decision. I would prefer playing a Diamond by far but the vast majority of apa players prefer the valley because they consider the Diamonds too difficult. Sounds stupid perhaps but I know I'll take more money out of valleys each week and that is the bottom line.
 
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I personally dont think there is that much difference between a Diamond BB (blue or red) and a 9' table with the same cloth. Of course you need to hit a little harder due to the extra length, but its not a large difference. I would imagine the bar tables play a little slower because the balls are not kept clean and polished. My GC with 860 and Artemis plays very close to the Diamond BB, no problem at all adjusting to lag speed differences. The big difference is when comparing to Valleys. I have never played on a Valley with 860 so Im not sure how they compare but the Valleys around here are all very slow compared to the Diamonds. If you are comparing to Diamonds with 860 to a typical Valley I can see why people would complain about the Diamonds being too fast. A lag on the Valleys I play on I hit harder than my 9" table.
 
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