Situation - You Make the Call

B

BarTableMan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Player 'A' has ball in hand.
Player 'B' has a solid deep in the jaws of a corner pocket.
Player 'A' proceeds to shoot his stripe into the solid pocketing both balls into the same pocket.
After the shot is completed, player 'A' states he was playing "safe".
Which player MUST shoot next?

(The tournament was following BCA rules.) Quote the rule if you have one. Thanks to all.
 
Player A. If he didn't announce a safety prior to the shot, he shoots again. Isn't that right?

Ps. I don't play much 8 ball.
 
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BarTableMan said:
Player 'A' has ball in hand.
Player 'B' has a solid deep in the jaws of a corner pocket.
Player 'A' proceeds to shoot his stripe into the solid pocketing both balls into the same pocket.
After the shot is completed, player 'A' states he was playing "safe".
Which player MUST shoot next?

(The tournament was following BCA rules.) Quote the rule if you have one. Thanks to all.
Click to expand...
I assume you were playing under BCAPL/CSI rules. The alternative would be World Standardized Rules, which is what the Billiard Congress of America (BCA, not BCAPL) distributes.

The BCAPL/CSI rule book is on-line at https://www.playcsipool.com/bcapl-rules.html. The page of interest is 76, which discusses this exact shot:

1. Situation: Player A has solids. Player A, without calling the shot, shoots the 6-ball
into the 12, pocketing the 6-ball after the 12-ball.
Ruling: Player A’s inning ends. Player B accepts the table in position.
Discussion: This type of shot is included in the definition of “Combination”, and therefore must be called.​
 
If, by "BCA" you mean BCAPL rules, then CSI Applied Ruling for Combination Shots, Situation 1 and Figure 10-4 apply. The shot is defined by CSI rules as a combination shot. If it was not overtly called before the shot then Player A does not get credit for the shot and it is Player B's shot. If the shot is overtly called before the shot then Player A must shoot again. In either case the declaration of the safety after the fact is irrelevant.

If, by "BCA", you mean WSR, then it's anyone's guess based on whom is making the decision and which side if the bed they got up on as to how they interpret the bucket of grey paint that WSR is awash in.

Buddy

Edit...just as Bob said above. I type way to slow on a phone.
 
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Bob Jewett said:
I assume you were playing under BCAPL/CSI rules. The alternative would be World Standardized Rules, which is what the Billiard Congress of America (BCA, not BCAPL) distributes.

The BCAPL/CSI rule book is on-line at https://www.playcsipool.com/bcapl-rules.html. The page of interest is 76, which discusses this exact shot:

1. Situation: Player A has solids. Player A, without calling the shot, shoots the 6-ball
into the 12, pocketing the 6-ball after the 12-ball.
Ruling: Player A’s inning ends. Player B accepts the table in position.
Discussion: This type of shot is included in the definition of “Combination”, and therefore must be called.​
Click to expand...

I wonder though - What if he was trying to make the ball past the other, not a combination, but then decided to claim it was a safety after the fact, when he saw the other ball fall too. There is discussion a page or two after the Applied Ruling you cited:

As with combinations, there is a simple way you can protect yourself from any possible detrimental effects of the safety rules: always call a safety if you do not want to shoot again, and always communicate your intentions clearly and verbally to your opponent. While it is not required by the rules to call a safety if you are playing defensively and not attempting to pocket a ball, and while it is true that many simple defensive shots are not actually "safety" shots as defined by the rules, there is no prohibition against declaring a safety even if you do not intend to pocket a ball. Then, if you do accidentally pocket a ball, there will be no dispute. Otherwise, it will be a judgment call by the referee.
Click to expand...
 
BRussell said:
I wonder though - What if he was trying to make the ball past the other, not a combination, but then decided to claim it was a safety after the fact, when he saw the other ball fall too. There is discussion a page or two after the Applied Ruling you cited:
Click to expand...
The shot sounds exactly like the diagram in the example interpretation I posted above. If the opponent's ball was sitting in the center of the pocket, no problem. If the ball was sitting to the side where it could act as a side-board but somehow got kissed into the pocket, it's not as clear.
 
BRussell said:
I wonder though - What if he was trying to make the ball past the other, not a combination, but then decided to claim it was a safety after the fact, when he saw the other ball fall too. There is discussion a page or two after the Applied Ruling you cited:
Click to expand...

According to the rule Bob posted the shooter doesn't have to call safe. If he doesn't call the combination the safe if implied. To avoid getting into an argument it would be a good idea to call safe but he didn't have to according to the rule.
 
It is my understanding that a safe resulting in pocketing a ball is never implied. It must always be called.
 
All of this is why I would NOT play 8 ball anywhere for money- rules for it are like a never ending merry go round- every five seconds another new horse comes out of the blue and it just never ends! So little arguments in 14.1- I love that game!
 
It is best to try and avoid this type of situation before it happens.

If Player A does not announce his intentions it is up to Player B to ask.
 
mikemosconi said:
All of this is why I would NOT play 8 ball anywhere for money- rules for it are like a never ending merry go round- every five seconds another new horse comes out of the blue and it just never ends! So little arguments in 14.1- I love that game!
Click to expand...

So few people playing that game,and it just doesnt work on a barbox:thumbup:
 
Bob Jewett said:
The shot sounds exactly like the diagram in the example interpretation I posted above. If the opponent's ball was sitting in the center of the pocket, no problem. If the ball was sitting to the side where it could act as a side-board but somehow got kissed into the pocket, it's not as clear.
Click to expand...

This is why I don't like these kinds of rules.
I'd be sort of happy with simply Call Your Pocket and allowing for anything else.

I'd rather just play a wide open game when it comes to 8ball or 9ball.

If it drops...... Shoot again.

This is one reason I don't play pool or consider leagues of any kind.

I'm looking for the fun. Not arguments and fights.
 
BarTableMan said:
Player 'A' has ball in hand.
Player 'B' has a solid deep in the jaws of a corner pocket.
Player 'A' proceeds to shoot his stripe into the solid pocketing both balls into the same pocket.
After the shot is completed, player 'A' states he was playing "safe".
Which player MUST shoot next?

(The tournament was following BCA rules.) Quote the rule if you have one. Thanks to all.
Click to expand...

You guys call this a combination? If unannouced, I call it pocketing two balls on one shot, intentional or otherwise.

Here's what I read in the BCA rules:

13. SAFETY SHOT. For tactical reasons a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue his turn at the table by declaring safety in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, he must declare a safety to his opponent. If this is NOT done, and one of the shooter's object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed.


I think this rule is clear in this case.
 
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TATE said:
You guys call this a combination? If unannouced, I call it pocketing two balls on one shot, intentional or otherwise.

Here's what I read in the BCA rules:

13. SAFETY SHOT. For tactical reasons a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue his turn at the table by declaring safety in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, he must declare a safety to his opponent. If this is NOT done, and one of the shooter's object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed.


I think this rule is clear in this case.
Click to expand...

I do too.

Maniac
 
TATE said:
You guys call this a combination? If unannouced, I call it pocketing two balls on one shot, intentional or otherwise.

Here's what I read in the BCA rules:

13. SAFETY SHOT. For tactical reasons a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue his turn at the table by declaring safety in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, he must declare a safety to his opponent. If this is NOT done, and one of the shooter's object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed.


I think this rule is clear in this case.
Click to expand...
Well, no, that is not anything like the OP's shot. I posted an exact CSI/BCAPL interpretation for his shot above.

Your quote refers to pocketing an obvious ball. The OP's shot was not obvious according to CSI/BCAPL rules.
 
BarTableMan said:
Player 'A' has ball in hand.
Player 'B' has a solid deep in the jaws of a corner pocket.
Player 'A' proceeds to shoot his stripe into the solid pocketing both balls into the same pocket.
After the shot is completed, player 'A' states he was playing "safe".
Which player MUST shoot next?

(The tournament was following BCA rules.) Quote the rule if you have one. Thanks to all.
Click to expand...

If I'm playing safe, I call safe "BEFORE" I shoot.

Than again, I'm a 14.1 player.

I've never played a strong player that didn't call his safeties before he shot.

On the other hand, I've played a crapp ton of weak players that would shoot and get a lucky roll and then claim thats what they were trying to do.

IMO, uncalled shots (luck) should be left out of every game except 9 ball.

Jeff


Edit:

In the end, it won't matter.

I've never once been defeated by luck other than 9 ball.

IMO, it's virtually impossible for someone thats well below my skill level to win a match thats long enough to matter.

All of the above is why I absolutely HATE leagues.
 
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