SJM Slant on the 2016 Mosconi Cup

snucar

World Snucar Champion
Silver Member
All you need to do to understand the quality gap in kicking between the two sides is to re-watch the match between Gray and Bergman. Gray forced Bergman to hit and hope kick shots 3 times at least, including Bergman's last shot of the match.
 
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AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Yes, but this is not the crux of the matter. Selection of kicking paths and knowing when to kick and when to jump are major areas of weakness. Team USA, far too often, sold out on a kick when a better path would have made a good result far more likely.

Sorry, but we were big losers in defense/kicking/jumping sequences, and that's a big part of why we were dominated in the racks in which both teams shot (that is, non Break and run racks). Perhaps you would no the rack count in the "both teams got to shoot" racks.

I agree with your fine analysis, stu. Even pointed some others to it. I was just pointing out that one area targeted as "needs improvement" after last year's event did seem to improve. Of course, the raw foul numbers do not tell the whole story, as you say. Also, I have not yet related kicking and jumping fouls to the number of escape attempts. Maybe I'll try to do that later.

As for your question about game outcomes when both teams got to shoot, the numbers nicely support what you are saying. There were 78 games that were not B&R (104 total games less 26 B&R). Team Europe won 50 of them (64%) -- 26 of 40 on Team USA's break and 24 of 38 on their own break.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
I agree with your fine analysis, stu. Even pointed some others to it. I was just pointing out that one area targeted as "needs improvement" after last year's event did seem to improve. Of course, the raw foul numbers do not tell the whole story, as you say. Also, I have not yet related kicking and jumping fouls to the number of escape attempts. Maybe I'll try to do that later.

As for your question about game outcomes when both teams got to shoot, the numbers nicely support what you are saying. There were 78 games that were not B&R (104 total games less 26 B&R). Team Europe won 50 of them (64%) -- 26 of 40 on Team USA's break and 24 of 38 on their own break.

Thanks for providing this stat. Yes, the racks we had to fight for didn't come easily, as your stat evidences. We can address this problem if we wish to do so.
 

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
Jay as Manager
Stu as Bench Coach


Freddie <~~~ cheerleader or hotdog guy
 

watchez

What time is it?
Silver Member
Justin Bergman posted on Facebook "Me and Mike wanted to kill each other and gamble and we almost played perfect set together....." And he is right except for when Mike hit the wrong side of the ball on the 9 ball combo, pretty much a perfect set.

So is the answer that the US needs to hold hands and sing kum ba ya (sp?) or it is that they just need to learn how to execute better in short races. So many of the matches were 1-1, the US would have a chance to get out and make it 2-1, they would mess up and then be down 3-1 after Europe broke. Set over.
 

one stroke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
OK, this won’t be kind, but as the saying goes “you’ve gotta be cruel to be kind.” I didn’t go to the Mosconi, but I saw every minute of every match.

In what ought to be viewed as the worst-ever performance by Team USA at the Mosconi, the pain was tough to bear. For those who might suggest that this was better than 2013, you are mistaken. Appleton, Souquet, Feijen, Immonen, and Boyes was a team consisting of four hall future of famers at the top of their games and the other had medaled that year in the World 9-ball Championships. That team’s play, which was good enough for an 11-2 win, was well above what we saw this year from Team Europe, and that Team might have beaten the 2016 Team USA 11-0. Congrats to Team Europe, but Team USA needs a major overhaul.

1. Same Old Same Old – USA Terrible at Singles

Only Rodney Morris delivered a point in singles, in which the US was pathetic, going 1-5. Inadequacy in defense and kicking were the US team’s biggest problem and America’s big breakers, SVB and Dechaine, didn’t break and run many racks.

2. Terrible at Doubles, Too

We were 2-6 in doubles, but only due to fluking Match 13, in which Bergman’s seemingly fatal miss was rescued by a fluked safety. Probably should have been 1-7.

3. Individual Members of Team USA

Skyler Woodward
After a respectable effort as Bergman’s partner on day one, Skyler’s play was pretty poor for the rest of the Mosconi. Still, his game is maturing and he looks like he’ll be a many-time member of Team USA. I’m bullish on Skyler and think he has a bright future at the Mosconi.

Justin Bergman
Bergman was solid most of the way, and was, by a mile, Team USA’s best player. To be fair, Justin does not break as well as some of the game’s top players and it threatens to hold him back from contention in the biggest events in pool. Still, Justin is the real deal, and he’s the only member of Team USA to whom onecan possibly say “well played.” Justin’s all around game should inspire other members and aspiring members of Team USA. Justin’s formula has been simple ---- he has become proficient in all the games, a dangerous opponent in all of pool’s major disciplines. He has a really nice blend of power and finesse. Two young players with a trajectory similar to that of Justin because of their all around skills are Skyler Woodward and, even more so, Billy Thorpe.

Shane Van Boening
Clearly the biggest disappointment on Team USA, Shane still can’t find his form in this event. He played in four of the first six matches, including the Team vs. Team match in which he lost two racks, and Team USA was 0-4 in those matches. His poor play turned this into an early rout, as we were down 5-1 by then. Shane is still an undisputed superstar and a future BCA Hall of Famer, but the Mosconi owns him and he’d likely be the first to admit it.

Mike Dechaine
Mike still can’t find his form at the Mosconi. He and Bergman were involved in what was surely the best match of the Mosconi, and he missed a two nine combo and another shot that cost Team USA a rack. Fueled by Bergman’s excellence, however, they got to double hill and Mike played an exquisite safe on the three and it looked like he’d redeemed himself. Appleton felt otherwise, kicking in the three and Ouschan followed with a superb four ball to earn the double hill win. Mike played respectably against Niels in singles, but ran into a man playing perfectly. Mike had no misses or tactical errors as Shane’s partner but Shane missed once and Mike scratched on the break once and those two errors sealed their fate. Fnally, Shaw beat Mike in a match in which Jayson came with a whole lot. Mike made some key errors at key moments and these shots added up to a poor Mosconi performance.

Rodney Morris
The one guy able to win at singles, Rodney got off to a good start, but his play fell off considerably afterward and he probably made as many bad errors as anyone on the team. Still, his singles win over Shaw was impressive.

4. Looking at the team as a whole

A. What Team USA Did Well

Don’t know Day 4 stats, but through Day 3, the US had 13 Break and Run racks to Europe’s 12.

B. What USA did Just Passably

I’d rate Team USA pattern play as passable, but inferior to that of Team Europe. Ball pocketing was just passable, well below that of Team Europe.

C. What Team USA Did Poorly

For the third straight year, that defense and kicking were pitiful, but this was the worst year of the three in this regard. Unlike Team Europe, the US rarely employed the two way shot. As I’ve noted in the past, it is impossible to win a Mosconi Cup playing this poorly in the moves game, and this is a big difference between Team USA and Team Europe. Poor defense and kicking ensure Europe many more good looks at the table than they deserve. The US didn’t pocket well at all and its speed control was pretty awful. Shot design/selection and shot execution were both terrible. European fundamentals seem a bit more solid than those of the American's, but I'm not a stroke mechanics guru and must leave more serious consideration of this matter to others.

5. The Coaching

Mark Wilson is a credit to American pool and a man of great quality and class. His commitment to the Mosconi is unwavering, his goals lofty. I have second thoughts about sharing this, but in each of his first two years as coach I offered to make a substantial contribution to the team (I’d have likely donated $2,500 each year) but he turned me down, saying that he wanted to pursue a more sustainable financial model for the event. I can’t tell you how much this impressed me. Mark has a long-term view of this event, an ambitious one at that.

All that said, he came up empty as a coach this year. His comment before day two that the goal was “not to suck” rubbed me and every serious fan of American pool the wrong way. It may well have demoralized his team, too, but we’ll never know. He clearly failed to address the weaknesses of last year’s team, of which four players returned, as the weaknesses were exactly the same as last year. His comment in the post match interview that his team did everything asked of it was fairly shocking, but if so, he never asked them to address the weaknesses they displayed in 2015 and never asked them to play with more patience, the kind that Europe so often wins racks with.

All this aside, thanks to Mark Wilson for his hard work.

I think Mark’s return is improbable after losing all twelve daily sessions in his three year term as coach, but it will be OK with me if he returns, because he presents American pool with dignity time and time again.

6. Sizing It Up for Next Year

American pool has hit bottom and it’s usually around now that we hear from the American fans that live in denial about the size of the gap between American and European pool. One day, when we are smart enough to own the size of that gap, we can start doing something about it. Bergman is a complete player, and Skyler seems to be evolving into one, but for the most part, the US players of the past three years move so poorly that they are completely dependent on their break. Our players need to learn how to beat Team Europe to the shot. Why is it that we know how to beat them all to the shot in one pocket but not in nine ball? Yes, it’s partly because we play the game more, but to me, it evidences that US players have the finesse skills to be good moves game players if they really work on it.

7. The Bottom Line

As the Greek philosopher Herodotus said, “the past is history,” so let's start fixing this tomorrow.

Rodney did beat who many feel is the best player today stateside so certainly that can't be overlooked and he did finish with the same winning percentage as Berg ,, personality I like him as the elder statesman in mix with younger players I think he connects very well with them and I would have zero problem with him being the team captain eaither , and I called for Billy the day Mark took over I think that kid has superstar written all over him from the first day I saw him play yrs back only time will tell

1
 

spartan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
OK, this won’t be kind, but as the saying goes “you’ve gotta be cruel to be kind.” I didn’t go to the Mosconi, but I saw every minute of every match.

In what ought to be viewed as the worst-ever performance by Team USA at the Mosconi, the pain was tough to bear. For those who might suggest that this was better than 2013, you are mistaken. Appleton, Souquet, Feijen, Immonen, and Boyes was a team consisting of four hall future of famers at the top of their games and the other had medaled that year in the World 9-ball Championships. That team’s play, which was good enough for an 11-2 win, was well above what we saw this year from Team Europe, and that Team might have beaten the 2016 Team USA 11-0. Congrats to Team Europe, but Team USA needs a major overhaul.

1. Same Old Same Old – USA Terrible at Singles

Only Rodney Morris delivered a point in singles, in which the US was pathetic, going 1-5. Inadequacy in defense and kicking were the US team’s biggest problem and America’s big breakers, SVB and Dechaine, didn’t break and run many racks.

2. Terrible at Doubles, Too

We were 2-6 in doubles, but only due to fluking Match 13, in which Bergman’s seemingly fatal miss was rescued by a fluked safety. Probably should have been 1-7.

3. Individual Members of Team USA

Skyler Woodward
After a respectable effort as Bergman’s partner on day one, Skyler’s play was pretty poor for the rest of the Mosconi. Still, his game is maturing and he looks like he’ll be a many-time member of Team USA. I’m bullish on Skyler and think he has a bright future at the Mosconi.

Justin Bergman
Bergman was solid most of the way, and was, by a mile, Team USA’s best player. To be fair, Justin does not break as well as some of the game’s top players and it threatens to hold him back from contention in the biggest events in pool. Still, Justin is the real deal, and he’s the only member of Team USA to whom onecan possibly say “well played.” Justin’s all around game should inspire other members and aspiring members of Team USA. Justin’s formula has been simple ---- he has become proficient in all the games, a dangerous opponent in all of pool’s major disciplines. He has a really nice blend of power and finesse. Two young players with a trajectory similar to that of Justin because of their all around skills are Skyler Woodward and, even more so, Billy Thorpe.

Shane Van Boening
Clearly the biggest disappointment on Team USA, Shane still can’t find his form in this event. He played in four of the first six matches, including the Team vs. Team match in which he lost two racks, and Team USA was 0-4 in those matches. His poor play turned this into an early rout, as we were down 5-1 by then. Shane is still an undisputed superstar and a future BCA Hall of Famer, but the Mosconi owns him and he’d likely be the first to admit it.

Mike Dechaine
Mike still can’t find his form at the Mosconi. He and Bergman were involved in what was surely the best match of the Mosconi, and he missed a two nine combo and another shot that cost Team USA a rack. Fueled by Bergman’s excellence, however, they got to double hill and Mike played an exquisite safe on the three and it looked like he’d redeemed himself. Appleton felt otherwise, kicking in the three and Ouschan followed with a superb four ball to earn the double hill win. Mike played respectably against Niels in singles, but ran into a man playing perfectly. Mike had no misses or tactical errors as Shane’s partner but Shane missed once and Mike scratched on the break once and those two errors sealed their fate. Fnally, Shaw beat Mike in a match in which Jayson came with a whole lot. Mike made some key errors at key moments and these shots added up to a poor Mosconi performance.

Rodney Morris
The one guy able to win at singles, Rodney got off to a good start, but his play fell off considerably afterward and he probably made as many bad errors as anyone on the team. Still, his singles win over Shaw was impressive.

4. Looking at the team as a whole

A. What Team USA Did Well

Don’t know Day 4 stats, but through Day 3, the US had 13 Break and Run racks to Europe’s 12.

B. What USA did Just Passably

I’d rate Team USA pattern play as passable, but inferior to that of Team Europe. Ball pocketing was just passable, well below that of Team Europe.

C. What Team USA Did Poorly

For the third straight year, that defense and kicking were pitiful, but this was the worst year of the three in this regard. Unlike Team Europe, the US rarely employed the two way shot. As I’ve noted in the past, it is impossible to win a Mosconi Cup playing this poorly in the moves game, and this is a big difference between Team USA and Team Europe. Poor defense and kicking ensure Europe many more good looks at the table than they deserve. The US didn’t pocket well at all and its speed control was pretty awful. Shot design/selection and shot execution were both terrible. European fundamentals seem a bit more solid than those of the American's, but I'm not a stroke mechanics guru and must leave more serious consideration of this matter to others.

5. The Coaching

Mark Wilson is a credit to American pool and a man of great quality and class. His commitment to the Mosconi is unwavering, his goals lofty. I have second thoughts about sharing this, but in each of his first two years as coach I offered to make a substantial contribution to the team (I’d have likely donated $2,500 each year) but he turned me down, saying that he wanted to pursue a more sustainable financial model for the event. I can’t tell you how much this impressed me. Mark has a long-term view of this event, an ambitious one at that.

All that said, he came up empty as a coach this year. His comment before day two that the goal was “not to suck” rubbed me and every serious fan of American pool the wrong way. It may well have demoralized his team, too, but we’ll never know. He clearly failed to address the weaknesses of last year’s team, of which four players returned, as the weaknesses were exactly the same as last year. His comment in the post match interview that his team did everything asked of it was fairly shocking, but if so, he never asked them to address the weaknesses they displayed in 2015 and never asked them to play with more patience, the kind that Europe so often wins racks with.

All this aside, thanks to Mark Wilson for his hard work.

I think Mark’s return is improbable after losing all twelve daily sessions in his three year term as coach, but it will be OK with me if he returns, because he presents American pool with dignity time and time again.

6. Sizing It Up for Next Year

American pool has hit bottom and it’s usually around now that we hear from the American fans that live in denial about the size of the gap between American and European pool. One day, when we are smart enough to own the size of that gap, we can start doing something about it. Bergman is a complete player, and Skyler seems to be evolving into one, but for the most part, the US players of the past three years move so poorly that they are completely dependent on their break. Our players need to learn how to beat Team Europe to the shot. Why is it that we know how to beat them all to the shot in one pocket but not in nine ball? Yes, it’s partly because we play the game more, but to me, it evidences that US players have the finesse skills to be good moves game players if they really work on it.

7. The Bottom Line

As the Greek philosopher Herodotus said, “the past is history,” so let's start fixing this tomorrow.

Great writeup
You are right that this is worse than 2013 even though score 11-3 slightly better than 11-2. The racks won 39.4% was worse than 2013 of 39.7%. Also as you pointed out, 2013 Euro was stronger than this year :)
 

Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
Good write up. I always enjoy your assessments of the events.

One thing though, the "try not to suck" thing was co-opted from Joe Maddon, the manager of the Cubs, who won the World Series after a 108 year drought. It was not an "undercover" thing, either.

If that quote demoralized you, then you really need pay more attention to the rest of the sports world.

Pax,

Taek

Pax, what's really wanting to be said, and I know the crabb man means well and he's definitely not demoralized. There is a cancerous ''negativity'' within the American pool culture/dialogue because of no pro tour. It slowly headed down hill, after the US Open 14.1 days of Mizerak, the Hustler with Paul Newman, and then with Paul Newman again as a steak horse...a bump of 10 million new players after the Color of Money/Tom Cruise....and in ten years, back to ten million less (30 million). As a player hearing your coach speak with negativity, just enables the slumped down position of ''our'' players waiting their turn after their mistake. Shane for sure, but it's just as easily NOT his fault, or anything like that, it could just be his mind maybe is unable to settle down allowing him to drop into the ''zone'' with the quirky format. Some are good at this format and some just can't put it all together and detach. No different than tennis dbls. The best singles players in the mens are almost never winners in dbls, there's reason for that, reality.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Justin Bergman posted on Facebook "Me and Mike wanted to kill each other and gamble and we almost played perfect set together....." And he is right except for when Mike hit the wrong side of the ball on the 9 ball combo, pretty much a perfect set. .

So true. Match 8 was the truly great match of this Mosconi with Bergman/Dechaine putting up a serious fight and very nearly beating Appleton/Ouschan. It was one of the best ever Mosconi matches for my money, but it underscored just how hard it can be to beat Team Europe when they're really coming with it.
 

Cezar Morales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
WHEW! Unfortunately I agree with most of what you wrote.

One pocket IS all about knowledge and it is easier to hid the cue ball behind a big stack of balls than it is to hide it behind a few balls like in 9 ball. The vast majority of Europeans seldom play one pocket. While not playing the game on a regular basis is a small excuse for the disparity that exists in that one discipline. With the way that Team Europe played safeties as compared to Team USA, I am afraid that Europe, given just a little time to embrace one pocket, would pass up the U.S. in that discipline as well. It's not easy for me to acknowledge that Europe has better technique but it's there for anyone to see.

We can wail about the Chinese table, the European fans, the European players, USA Team Captain, luck and any other excuse you can find, it is as plain as the nose on your face that in this type of format, the USA is an underdog by a long shot. You just don't get beat 7 times in a row and continue to find excuse after excuse.

My hope is that our American players will return to U.S. soil and decide that they will acknowledge their weaknesses in this format and work to make them their strengths.

A professional sports psychologist is needed to help the players fade those loud and boisterous fans of Europe and possibly some training under those conditions. Those European fans remind me of the rabid Saints fans & ferocious LSU fans down here in Louisiana.

JoeyA


You want the solution as to why Americam players cant handle pressure n are not fundementally sound.

Make a trip to taiwan, go to the local pool halls from the north to the south and check out the pool training system n u wld realize how soft n naive merican players are.

You will see RECREATIONAL players practicing straight-in shot on 3 inch pockets making a hundred a day, practicing jump and kicking shots, you see players discussing n sharing strengths n weakness .
When i stress "recreation", these are players who know they will never make it pro but just do so to perfect their love for the game.

Now when u go to those pool training schools, you see 14 yr old middle school kids ( boys or gals ) already able to comprehending getting shape for the 3rd ball , thus breaking n running a couple racks easily , oh.. did i mention on virgin pocket sizes too.

How do u think Wu chia ching won the world 9ball at 16 n make the rest of the grown adult field look like a joke !

Also , standard of living is considerably lower compared to states.

I think sending them young dogs to taiwan or philipines to live for a period of time will do a lota good for their game n make them realize how backwards their game is.
Kim ga young and a couple of japanese pros hone their skills for yrs n Darren lived in the philipines for a period too and see what it did for their game.

Now take my words with a pinch of salt , i could get a couple retired pros n current house pros in their 40's or 50's n Bergman sky or mike gonna need some weight .
Yes thats how bad it is..
 

pmac666

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
so good to see there are still sane ppl left over there! great sum up sjm, that hits the nail!
and please for a good competition again (no idea about mark wilson but i always have the feeling he isnt a good motivator for the boys like chamat is)....... #jayhelfertforcoach
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
You are correct. It was the first thing he said in the first interview on Day 1. I cringed. I'd guess that the enormous majority of people listening to that had no knowledge of the linkage with the Cubs. I didn't remember that either at the time, and just thought he was failing with an attempt to start the interview with humor. He did say some good things a couple of sentences later, however.

I have revised my post to correctly reflect the timing of this comment.
 
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Apocalypse2017

Welcome to the resistance
Silver Member
I have a freedom boner thinking about Jay as the coach in Vegas for 2017!!

Let him pick 5 players and take them to a pool training sweat shop in Taiwan or the Philippines for the year. :smile:
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
I have a freedom boner thinking about Jay as the coach in Vegas for 2017!!

Let him pick 5 players and take them to a pool training sweat shop in Taiwan or the Philippines for the year. :smile:

Right on, brother, but ....

Unfortunately, making Mosconi qualification impossible for some would really hurt participation in many American events. That doesn't mean, however, that you're not on the right track.
 

JC

Coos Cues
The hard work (let's call it training camp) will take place in the last month. But the experience in major national and international competition will take place all year.

Ah but where are you going to get the money for it?

We all know the gap between what would be ideal training circumstances and the reality of every day life in the American professional players world. How many of our players would play much more all over the world if they could afford it? It's the fighting for table scraps that forces them onto bar boxes way too much.

It's all about money Jay and until and unless you solve that, you're just as doomed as the last well intentioned coach has been. The good news is that the sport is so broke, it won't take much more than one multimillionaire mentor to quantum leap it. I suggest you find that person or be prepared for failure. I recall one such dreamer getting chewed up and spit out just a few years back by the status quo.

JC
 

JC

Coos Cues
Justin Bergman posted on Facebook "Me and Mike wanted to kill each other and gamble and we almost played perfect set together....." And he is right except for when Mike hit the wrong side of the ball on the 9 ball combo, pretty much a perfect set.

This shows how delusional they are frankly if they believe this. Did someone forget about that miss/scratch on a moderately easy shot on the 4 ball from Mike? A race to five at this level has no tolerance for mistakes like that.

I apparently was watching a different match.

JC
 
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