Sleeping in your car, a warning

"3. To the person who mentioned getting your foot cut off for crossing the yellow line, I'm not even going to respond. You're not interested in serious intellectual debate. Hyperbole seems to be your friend."
Sorry your reading and comprehension skills are too low to keep up.
 
PoolBum said:
I have been holding my breath over this debate since I don't usually like to post on political topics in a pool forum. But I have to say that I am in near complete agreement with VIProfessor in this matter. I have had this debate many times with colleagues in the past who overestimate the deterrent effects of harsher criminal laws, including capital punishment.

I think it is a naive misunderstanding of the mindset of the majority of "youngbloods out on the street" as VIProfessor aptly put it (as opposed to, say, white collar criminals--a very important distinction in this context), to think that anything like a rational weighing of the pros and cons of their behavior in terms of risk versus reward, potential gain versus potential punishment, even enters the picture. To view the matter this way strikes me as being severely out of touch with the reality of life for some people.

VIProfessor is right again when he says that we need to think about what sort of society we want the United States to become. These sorts of complicated socio-economic/political issues are never so black-and-white or so simple as to admit of a "kill the criminals and that will stop them from committing crimes" sort of approach.

"Distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful." -Nietzsche


Yet another Commie pinko! What's up, bro?
 
Hail Mary Shot said:
The laws and punishments in the middle east are even more harsh, yet crime is still prevalent and at it's normal increasing pace.

Source? And let's be intellectually honest, here... Countries with weak govenment control, and those in third-world Middle Eastern countries can hardly be compared to the U.S. as far as crime rates go.

I did a quick search on the internet, and in developed Middle Eastern countries, barring Iraq for obvious reasons, it appeared that the rate of murder, rape, and robbery are all lower than the U.S..

I'm not saying we need to adopt all their laws, as they ban alcohol in most of those countries, just saying it may not be true that their punishments are ineffective.

Russ
 
The best arguments I know of against the death penalty are that
1) Studies done show no correlation between more executions=less crime.
2) It is far more expensive to execute a prisoner than to house them for the rest of their natural lives.
3) There are innocent people on death row. Believe it. From 2003-2007, 17 people on death row were exonerated through DNA.

Besides Efren Reyes, my personal hero is Barry Scheck, who was the cofounder of the innocence project. Working with law students and a shoestring budget, this group has freed 200 WRONGLY convicted persons, many of them on Death Row. Check them out www.innocenceproject.org
 
uwate said:
2) It is far more expensive to execute a prisoner than to house them for the rest of their natural lives.

Not by my system, it isn't..

Here is a quote from a website I found dealing with the issue:

"Why is capital punishment so much more expensive? To make sure that innocent people aren't executed, capital cases are given a lengthy appeals process."

It is the APPEALS process that costs so much, not the actual execution.

Take away the 7 or 8 appeals they get, and execution becomes a WHOLE lot less expensive!

YAYYYYYYY for math!

Russ
 
jay helfert said:
I will never drive when I get sleepy. I wrecked a Corvette by falling asleep when I was still a teenager. So when I get sleepy, I pull over and find a place to rest.

Last week I went down to Temecula to play in a poker tournament. It was a thousand dollar buy-in with a $250,000 guarantee. They ended up with 390 players and a $390,000 purse, 130K for first. Sweet!

I played until about Midnite and busted out about 85th. No money though. I got in my car and headed home, 90 miles away. After driving a short distance I realized I was too sleepy to drive. I pulled off the freeway in Lake Elsinore and looked for a quiet spot to rest. I drove into town and parked on the main drag next to other cars. It was about 12:30 AM. I put my seat back and fell sound asleep.

About 1:15 AM there is a loud knock on my window. I'm startled awake and see a young hispanic kid at the window. He asks me if I have a cigarette, and I tell him I don't smoke. He then asks me for $5, and I realize I have a problem. I look out the other window and see two more young kids. They must have been about 18 or 19. They immediately start trying to get in my locked doors.

My first reaction is to reach for my .22 derringer in the ashtray. It holds five shots, revolver style. The first kids head is about two feet from mine, as he plays with the door, trying to get it open. I can't miss from that close, but think better of it, and try to start the car. He is now simulating a weapon under his shirt. Why I didn't shoot him I don't know. I was afraid, and there were three of them. If they had gotten in the car (actually a Ford Bronco II), I would have been in a very bad spot.

Anyway, I got the truck started, and backed up fast. Two of the kids disappeared, but the first one hung onto my door. My little truck is cold blooded and it died. He is banging on the window hard now, trying to break it. Somehow I get the truck started again and slowly pull away with him running alongside, yelling at me and simulating something under his shirt. I got away. No harm, no foul. Just a good scare.

When I got a few blocks down the street I became very mad, and thought of going back for a moment. I ended up back on the freeway and drove on home. I told Tang and Kim about my experince but not my family. They would be too worried.

Now I know that pulling off the freeway to sleep may not be such a good idea late at night. Maybe parking in an all night gas station would be better, but there is so much light it is hard to sleep. And maybe next time, I will take my .38, so I can handle three guys. And there will probably never be a next time like that. I'm getting too old for this kind of stuff. Maybe it's time for me to retire from gambling.

Sorry gang. I just realized that this should be in non pool related section. Maybe Mike can move it over.
Quite a story. I think you did the right thing by not shooting the kid especially when given the point-blank shot. I can say that you have taught me a valueable lesson, not to pull-off to the side of the road and sleep. i have one question though, Why didn't you check into a hotel/motel in the town the tournament was played in?
 
aeoliner said:
Quite a story. I think you did the right thing by not shooting the kid especially when given the point-blank shot. I can say that you have taught me a valueable lesson, not to pull-off to the side of the road and sleep. i have one question though, Why didn't you check into a hotel/motel in the town the tournament was played in?

Didn't you read the part where Jay said that he didn't cash? Whether its pool or poker, you've got to keep that nut low!:D
 
Glad you made it out of there safely, Jay. I started getting worried that I'd fall asleep at the wheel, so now I keep a bottle of "No Doz" in my car. 1 No Doz supposedly has the equivalent caffeine dosage to 1 cup of coffee. I don't need them often, but every now and then they come in handy.
 
Couple of quick comments that can be pursued by those with an interest. The Death penalty does not deter the homicide rate. This is only mildly controversial. Here is summary of one of the better studies.

Capital Punishment and Deterrence: Examining the Effect of Executions on Murder in Texas. Authors John Sorenson, Robert Wrinkle, Victoria Brewer, and James Marquart examined executions in Texas between 1984 and 1997. They speculated that if a deterrent effect were to exist, it would be found in Texas because of the high number of death sentences and executions within the state. Using patterns in executions across the study period and the relatively steady rate of murders in Texas, the authors found no evidence of a deterrent effect. The study concluded that the number of executions was unrelated to murder rates in general, and that the number of executions was unrelated to felony rates. (45 Crime and Delinquency 481-93 (1999)).
Ref http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/art...ATES WITH THE DEATH PENALTY V. STATES WITHOUT

I do not have the reference right now but there are studies suggesting that that a high percentage of teens (60 – 70%?) who commit violent crime have been knocked unconscious for a lengthy (one hour or more) period of time that required hospitalization. This implies some sort of serious brain insult in childhood.

If I came on a rabid dog attacking a child I would kill it with no thought. I am human and an animal. I will protect myself and my species. What differentiates you and me from the animal is our consideration for the future, especially the future of civilization in which we seek a peaceful and civilized world. So if I have a day to think about that animal of the night, I must proceed differently because every life, especially yours and mine is worthwhile.

If a person who commits premeditated murder should be put to death what of a group of 12 who in cold blood decide that a life is not worthwhile and then instruct others to kill that person. In this sense the jury is no different than the murderer. Motivation is not the deciding factor here as intent is the issue (premeditation).

As a forensic psychologist with many years working with children and adults who are (or become) criminal I would suggest to bsmutz and anyone in a similar situation that what is needed to raise a child to be a good man is time well spent. By this I mean to take up a hobby with your grandson. Buy a car with no engine and you and he learn to fix it up. Put the engine in when he is 16. Take up camping for men and teach your grandson the ways of men by making him work and play with you. Give it one year and he will become the man you would like to see. The more hours per day you "require" him to spend with you, the better.

BTW, my graduate student in a master's thesis found that one of the best deterrents of future criminality in teens is a girlfriend. And it did not matter if she was a "good" girl or a mildly "bad" girl. The female of the species has a good effect on the socialization of the male of the species. -- Handle with care.

For those who quote the bible note that Jesus said something to the affect, “I did not come to subvert the law, I bring you a new law – love one another.” To advocate the death penalty you must quote the Old Testament of a primitive Jewish culture, not the principles of Christianity (I am not a Christian, though I was raised as a Catholic).
We must always consider what principles we lay down for our children as they will have to live with our actions.
 
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Jay, I keep a bottle of NoDose and bottled water just in case I get sleepy - I don't have a gun - yet. I'm glad you're still posting and that you escaped - what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

You say a young Hispanic/s. They could be influenced by illegal Hispanics.

Another poster cites the following stats:

From the L.A. Times

1. 40% of all workers in L.A. County ( L.A. County has 10.2 million people) are working for cash and not paying taxes. This is because they are predominantly illegal immigrants working without a green card.


2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens

4. Over 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on
Medi-Cal , whose births were paid for by taxpayers.

5. Nearly 35% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican
Nationals here illegally.

6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.

7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely
Illegal aliens from south of the border.

8. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.

9. 21 radio stations in L.A. Are Spanish speaking.

10. In L.A. County 5.1 million people speak English, 3.9 million speak Spanish.
(There are 10.2 million people in L.A. County ).

;(All of the above are from the Los Angeles Times)


Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops, but 29% are on welfare.


Over 70% of the United States ' annual population growth
(and over 90% of California , Florida , and New York )
Results from immigration.

29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens.



We are a bunch of crazies for letting this continue...



What are we thinking????????
 
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JoeW said:
The Death penalty does not deter the homicide rate.

Joe, statistics are good things to consider and you bring a lot of other important points to this discussion. It is said that it is easy to lie with statistics. I wonder if any of the statistics you referred to were developed by people who had a propensity toward supporting the death penalty?

As to the death penalty reducing the homicide rate:
I do know that the sorry pieces of crap that committed the horrific crimes and were executed will not be committing any more crimes. That is one less violent criminal in society. They won't commit murder any longer.

Besides a penalty should be paid for willfully taking another person's life, especially one who was innocent of any wrong doing.

The penalty for murdering someone in cold blood should be death by execution.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion but mine is that a cold-blooded murderer as well as low life child rapists deserve no less than deathg by execution and quickly.
JoeyA
 
JoeyA said:
JoeW said:
The penalty for murdering someone in cold blood should be death by execution.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion but mine is that a cold-blooded murderer as well as low life child rapists deserve no less than deathg by execution and quickly.
JoeyA

You do realize that someone can agree with you on both of these points and still rationally oppose the death penalty, right?
 
lazybum said:
Everyone loves to have a gun it seems... you even mention that you need to carry a bigger one next time. All that I ask is that the readers of this thread (even the original poster) to re-read the original post and take note that a gun was never needed. Common sense easily took care of the situation with no bloodshed. If a gun was used, or even brandished, this situation would have turned out much, much worse.

This is proof of the often ignored fact that most all situations are resolved better without a gun. The use of, or showing of, a gun causes situations to explode. Cooler, more logical thinking is ignored because of fear. I know people can quote rare situations where a gun saved a life (of one person in the situation). All I ask you to consider is the numerous (majority of) situations where a gun causes everything to go bad.

Next time, leave the gun at home. There will be no temptation to use it and cause yourself and others unnecessary grief and suffering.


Please be gentle with your "my second amendment right," "better safe than sorry," and "out-of-control crime in this country warrants it" replies. :)


I beg to disagree. I commend Jay's civility in as far as how he handled the situation. He was scared yet was able to stay calm and proactive. Had I been in the same situation, the moment the ***** started banging on the window to break in is enough clear indication of intent to harm, perhaps kill. At that point, pulling that derringer and pointing it directly at that *****s face will definitely make him think twice. Staring at a gun barrel is the second scariest thing next to cocking a shotgun. I hope nobody ever goes through the same but we all know that it will happen again sometime somewhere to someone. If and when you decide to pull the trigger, make sure the sucker is dead. When push comes to shove, it's you or the bad guy. Everything after that is secondary.

Lesson: When there is time and space to flee, flee by all means. But when you're backed in a corner and nowhere to go, fight for dear life. There's no guarantee you'll get out alive but try to take as many with you. Prevail. Survive. Go out fighting to your last dying breath.
 
JoeyA:
It is true that one can lie with statistics and indeed one of my classes teaches students how to use statistics ethically and have the ability to determine when someone is using them inappropriately.

It is also true that an automobile is a dangerous tool and you can kill people with it. Does it follow that anyone who drives is a killer? Certainly anyone who drives is a potential killer – and the point is ??? Any good tool is a potential weapon that does not mean that is used as a weapon.

In the sciences we teach people to look at their hypothesis as a thing to be tested to learn about the truth of a matter. This is far more objective than the non-scientific approach. We are willing to conclude that something may have some truth in it if we are only going to be wrong 5 times in 100 (or 95% sure of the observations).

When the same problem is looked at from a different perspective different results may be seen – description of the elephant by blind men problem. Eventually all of the studies converge on a common idea that is thought to be generally true – until someone finds another way to look at the problem (see Einstein and relativity).

Some people of course use these tools for other purposes. In general, if it is published in a recognized scientific journal it can be accepted that the people who conducted the study were trying to be truthful. If not we will rip then a new one and destroy 20+ years of their education !

If you think that pool is fun, try science a truly fascinating game with stiff competition.

With regard to execution another student of the subject stated that she thought life in prison exacted a much more severe penalty as the convict get to live thir regret for a life time. Hmm the choice between two horrible ways to live and die. BTW - how does anyone know that some lives are not in some way redeemable?
 
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Those of you that have car alarms some have a panic button you can press to set off the alarm that will hopefully draw some good attention...when you sleep set the alarm too.
 
Secaucus Fats said:
Fats the flamethrower they have had for a few years now ..they started out with spraying mace then pepper spray ..because of the violence in car jackings a person developed the flame thrower..also another weapon which is used alot down there is called a street sweeper..it is a 12 gauage 12 shot shot gun...that flame thrower was a real deterrant against thugs...it was nice to see it again...
 
Opium Pipe Dream

JoeW said:
JoeyA:
BTW - how does anyone know that some lives are not in some way redeemable?

For an example I might offer; a convicted caught in the act, guilty as hell, murderer who goes to prison and while in prison discovers a cure for cancer. Is that kind of what you're talking about? That's my opium pipe dream......

In what way do you imagine the life of a murdering piece of scum be redeemable? Sorry, I have a strong opinion concerning criminals that commit horrific crimes and deserve the ultimate punishment.

Still I would be interested to hear suitable and realistic examples of redemption even if I don't think they deserve it.

JoeyA
 
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