Something is wrong with Team USA

[sjm]

We had Emily on our Mosconi Preview show, let me say this hand on heart, she wants that American team to be as competitive as it can be. Believe me, she genuinely has a love for pool and enhanced prize money for Matchroom Events may make more American players take the game more seriously, or if Europe/Asia is where the best players are, maybe that's where they should head. In the Snooker world, no overseas player succeeded until they made the move to the UK. In days gone by, no European player succeeded in Pool until they played in the US.

Facts are facts though and that European line up was formidable, I was actually shocked when I saw the odds online, as I thought Europe would be a heavier favourite.

I genuinely think that if you start tweaking the event to put limits on who can be on the teams etc, it goes back to what it was when it started.

Although I'm obviously a Europe supporter, I was desperate for the USA to make it closer and take it into a fourth day.

For me, Team USA didn't look right from the Press Conference. Corey was a strange replacement pick for me, which was compounded even more when he said he wasn't really prepared.

Look down the list of WPA 9 Ball World Champs, the USA haven't had a winner in a very long time. Maybe the time is right to create a US/Asian team, remember, the Ryder Cup was historically USA vs GB before it got so lopsided they had to include Europe. It would be a real shame if this event stopped being consistently competitive, it has become (for me) a must watch since the very first tournament back in 1994.

The US has far more nine ball players than the entire continent of Europe. Some European posters have suggested that there are 10-20 times as many nine ball players in America than in all of Europe. Allowing Team USA to recruit from the likes of Orcullo, Raga, Zheng, JL Chang, Wu Jiaqing, Liu Haitao, Carlo Biado, Lee Van Corteza, Ko Ping Chung and Ko Pin Yi would be a huge overreaction. Shane would be the only American with a chance to earn a spot on such a team.

Most US players have sidestepped the major overseas WPA sanctioned events for years now, and it has caught up with them. If Matchroom wants to make things more competitive, they should help change this.

 

[RickLafayette]

Billy Thorpe and Skyler Woodward, despite their ridiculous taste in style, are both still young and have a lot of good years ahead of them to represent us in the cup. There's only a few years separating them from Filler and Kaci.

 

[jokrswylde]

The US has far more nine ball players than the entire continent of Europe. Some European posters have suggested that there are 10-20 times as many nine ball players in America than in all of Europe. Allowing Team USA to recruit from the likes of Orcullo, Raga, Zheng, JL Chang, Wu Jiaqing, Liu Haitao, Carlo Biado, Lee Van Corteza, Ko Ping Chung and Ko Pin Yi would be a huge overreaction. Shane would be the only American with a chance to earn a spot on such a team.

Most US players have sidestepped the major overseas WPA sanctioned events for years now, and it has caught up with them. If Matchroom wants to make things more competitive, they should help change this.

I agree. If anything, what about making it strictly US vs. UK? Do you think that would be more closely matched?

Or

If you want it to stay European, change it to Europe vs. America. I don't know about many central and South American players, other than the kid who just beat Tyler...but if Alex is fair game from Canada, he immediately makes our team more competitive. Heck, John Morra playing off hand might have made our top 5...

 

[BRussell]

Did everyone see what was going on with the ref and team USA during SVB vs. Shaw in the last match? The ref said something to the US bench after SVB broke dry at 3-2. Then after the rack the ref admonished JJ, saying ”you accused me” or something, and JJ said “I shook my head, I’m allowed to shake my head” lol. Then Emily Fraser had to come and tell them to cut it out. It looked to me like the ref over-reacted a bit to a pretty mild complaint about the rack from JJ.

 

[ShootingHank]

Attitude is what separated the two teams with the exception of SVB. The Euros looked ready to win while the Americans didn’t. Euros were far more professional too except petty Shaw.

Also weight and obesity of the Americans have to be talked about. They need to hire personal trainers for these guys. Instead of having two slices of pizza they have no discipline and eat the entire pizza. Look how much better golfers got once they believed in a proper diet. A proper diet in pool can help with stamina and prevent mental fatigue. American team looked hungry and ready to call it a night for supper.

 

[ChrisinNC]

Unfortunately, Chris, you've got this right, The truly great players nearly always show world championship level potential at an early age.

A generation ago, America had (at least) four young players that were world beaters at a young age, namely Earl Strickland, Johnny Archer, Mike Sigel and Allen Hopkins. Earl Strickland won the US Open 9-ball at 23. Mike Sigel won the US Open 9-ball at 23 and the World 14.1 Championship at 27, Johnny Archer was World 9-ball Champion by the age of 24. Allen Hopkins won both the US Open 9-ball and the World 14.1 Championship by the age of 26.

In this generation of American players, only Shane Van Boening showed this kind of form in his early 20s, winning the US Open 9-ball by age 24. Billy Thorpe, I believe, is 25. Skyler Woodward is 27. Tyler Styer will turn 26 in a few weeks. While Thorpe and Woodward are magnificent all-around players, each dangerous in one pocket, banks and nine ball, neither is counted as top 30 in the world in 9-ball based on Fargo rate. It's very early in the pool life of 22 year old Chris Robinson, but while he looks solid enough, he doesn't look like he'll challenge the world's most elite anytime soon. Justin Bergman is rock solid, but he's not that young anymore, and I think of him as a veteran player at this point.

Great young American players on the horizon are awfully hard to find, and just as you suggest, it doesn't bode well for America as they try to beat a European team that will feature Filler (23), Gorst (20), and Kaci (21) for many years to come, with loads of veteran and emerging talent to round out the rest of their squad in the foreseeable future. The European talent pool is so deep that players carrying a Fargo of 800+ will not always make the team.

Team USA will win the Mosconi Cup occasionally in the coming years, but there's every reason to suspect that they'll enter the next ten Mosconi Cups as underdogs.

Stuart, the bottom line is that there is no real $ in pool as a career, so there’s no incentive for a young American player to devote their entire youth to pool, which is what it takes. That, in addition to having the natural talent, the work ethic, the proper instruction, and continuing to get tested by better and better players as they progress. Not to mention the shortage of decent family friendly poolrooms in most towns for young players to get exposed to this game at an early age.

Compare that to golf, tennis, basketball, baseball, or a number of other professional sports, where there is a huge $ incentive for those that make it to the professional level. In all of those sports, there are plenty of American players, both men and women, who are developing in to the best at their sport in the world, and getting well $ compensated for their efforts. The payoff is just not there for pool.

 

[HawaiianEye]

Stuart, the bottom line is that there is no real $ in pool as a career, so there’s no incentive for a young American player to devote their entire youth to pool, which is what it takes. That, in addition to having the natural talent, the work ethic, the proper instruction, and continuing to get tested by better and better players as they progress. Not to mention the shortage of decent family friendly poolrooms in most towns for young players to get exposed to this game at an early age.

Compare that to golf, tennis, basketball, baseball, or a number of other professional sports, where there is a huge $ incentive for those that make it to the professional level. In all of those sports, there are plenty of American players, both men and women, who are developing in to the best at their sport in the world, and getting well $ compensated for their efforts. The payoff is just not there for pool.

What is the incentive for a European player?

 

[sjm]

I agree. If anything, what about making it strictly US vs. UK? Do you think that would be more closely matched?

More closely matched, yes, but less watchable. Thinking back to when the Ryder Cup golf was US vs UK, we were denied the chance to watch two of the all time golfing greats in Spain's Seve Ballesteors and Germany's Bernhard Langer. Extending it to all of Europe made the Ryder Cup great. The same is true of the Mosconi Cup, for without all the stars of Europe, it is a much weaker event.

Not saying that a UK team, perhaps consisting of Shaw, Melling, Appleton, Selby, and Boyes can't beat Team USA, but I want to see Filler, Ouschan and the other European superstars when I watch the Mosconi.

PS The inclusion of Canada just to get Alex on the team has never been a good idea in the eyes of this fan, and with Alex in his forties, it's a patch rather than a solution.

 

[ShootingHank]

What is the incentive for a European player?

Kicking our asses in our own game and the fact that Americans have tournaments nationwide where they can live here part time and kick out asses.

 

[HawaiianEye]

Kicking our asses in our own game and the fact that Americans have tournaments nationwide where they can live here part time and kick out asses.

Minus expenses, how much money do they make in a year playing pool in the USA?

 

[jay helfert]

We had Emily on our Mosconi Preview show, let me say this hand on heart, she wants that American team to be as competitive as it can be. Believe me, she genuinely has a love for pool and enhanced prize money for Matchroom Events may make more American players take the game more seriously, or if Europe/Asia is where the best players are, maybe that's where they should head. In the Snooker world, no overseas player succeeded until they made the move to the UK. In days gone by, no European player succeeded in Pool until they played in the US.

Facts are facts though and that European line up was formidable, I was actually shocked when I saw the odds online, as I thought Europe would be a heavier favourite.

I genuinely think that if you start tweaking the event to put limits on who can be on the teams etc, it goes back to what it was when it started.

Although I'm obviously a Europe supporter, I was desperate for the USA to make it closer and take it into a fourth day.

For me, Team USA didn't look right from the Press Conference. Corey was a strange replacement pick for me, which was compounded even more when he said he wasn't really prepared.

Look down the list of WPA 9 Ball World Champs, the USA haven't had a winner in a very long time. Maybe the time is right to create a US/Asian team, remember, the Ryder Cup was historically USA vs GB before it got so lopsided they had to include Europe. It would be a real shame if this event stopped being consistently competitive, it has become (for me) a must watch since the very first tournament back in 1994.

I have long felt that our team should include all of North America. How much more competitive would we have been with Alex and Morra onboard?

 

[HawaiianEye]

I have long felt that our team should include all of North America. How much more competitive would we have been with Alex and Morra onboard?

Should we just keep expanding our base because we keep losing?

The tiny country of Taiwan could probably field a team that would beat both the Americans and the Europeans.

 

[jay helfert]

Stuart, the bottom line is that there is no real $ in pool as a career, so there’s no incentive for a young American player to devote their entire youth to pool, which is what it takes. That, in addition to having the natural talent, the work ethic, the proper instruction, and continuing to get tested by better and better players as they progress. Not to mention the shortage of decent family friendly poolrooms in most towns for young players to get exposed to this game at an early age.

Compare that to golf, tennis, basketball, baseball, or a number of other professional sports, where there is a huge $ incentive for those that make it to the professional level. In all of those sports, there are plenty of American players, both men and women, who are developing in to the best at their sport in the world, and getting well $ compensated for their efforts. The payoff is just not there for pool.

It would take a real Pro Tour to get these kids to start playing pool seriously. THe talent is out there

Should we just keep expanding our base because we keep losing?

The tiny country of Taiwan could probably field a team that would beat both the Americans and the Europeans.

Agreed! The same could be said for the small country of The Philippines.

 

[sjm]

Stuart, the bottom line is that there is no real $ in pool as a career, so there’s no incentive for a young American player to devote their entire youth to pool, which is what it takes. That, in addition to having the natural talent, the work ethic, the proper instruction, and continuing to get tested by better and better players as they progress. Not to mention the shortage of decent family friendly poolrooms in most towns for young players to get exposed to this game at an early age.

Compare that to golf, tennis, basketball, baseball, or a number of other professional sports, where there is a huge $ incentive for those that make it to the professional level. In all of those sports, there are plenty of American players, both men and women, who are developing in to the best at their sport in the world, and getting well $ compensated for their efforts. The payoff is just not there for pool.

Even if I accept this argument, and I'm not sure it applies any more to US players than to European payers, it begs the question "Why aren't our best developing as well as the top Europeans?" Is it poor training? Is it poor work ethic? Is it lack of desire? Is it too great a focus on gambling or on some of the fringe games? One thing the US does have is lots and lots of events, if both national and regional events are included, which is why so many elite European players (Immonen, Appleton, Hohmann and Shaw especially) moved here. Why have we not developed more talent relative to Europe for over a decade now? After all, we have so many more nine ball players than Europe.

American pool needs to look itself in the mirror and find the answers to these questions. We can fix this, but we'll need to be both objective and introspective if we are to get on the winning path.

 

[sjm]

It would take a real Pro Tour to get these kids to start playing pool seriously. THe talent is out there

Agreed! The same could be said for the small country of The Philippines.

Excellent point, Jay, but as we know, if the US develops a tour with good prize money, several of the elite players of Europe and Asia will participate, just as was the case in the 1990s. In the end, the challenge remains for the top American players to learn to beat the top Europeans and Asians with far greater regularity than what we've seen over the past decade. An opportunity to earn more money might light a fire under some of the top Americans, but it also might give the Europeans and Asians greater motivation to further hone their skills.

All that said, the chance to compete more often against the world's most elite is what the American players need most, so I think you've hit the nail on the head in suggesting that the formation of a real pro tour in American is a big part of the solution in raising the general performance of America's top players.

 

[HawaiianEye]

Even if I accept this argument, and I'm not sure it applies any more to US players than to European payers, it begs the question "Why aren't our best developing as well as the top Europeans?" Is it poor training? Is it poor work ethic? Is it lack of desire? Is it too great a focus on gambling or on some of the fringe games? One thing the US does have is lots and lots of events, if both national and regional events are included, which is why so many elite European players (Immonen, Appleton, Hohmann and Shaw especially) moved here. Why have we not developed more talent relative to Europe for over a decade now? After all, we have so many more nine ball players than Europe.

American pool needs to look itself in the mirror and find the answers to these questions. We can fix this, but we'll need to be both objective and introspective if we are to get on the winning path.

It is much easier and cheaper to travel in Europe than it is in the USA.

They have actual leagues that teach people to play pool, unlike the APA which encourages beer swilling, sandbagging, and everything but improving your pool game.

They have more clinics and events.

They seem to think of it as a sport to compete at, rather than a game to gamble at and trap a sucker.

They have pros who will mentor younger and less-experienced players instead of leaving them to figure out for themselves.

They stick together better as a team and practice as a team.

Those are just a few of the things where I see a difference.

 

[sjm]

It is much easier and cheaper to travel in Europe than it is in the USA.

They have actual leagues that teach people to play pool, unlike the APA which encourages beer swilling, sandbagging, and everything but improving your pool game.

They have more clinics and events.

They seem to think of it as a sport to compete at, rather than a game to gamble at and trap a sucker.

They have pros who will mentor younger and less-experienced players instead of leaving them to figure out for themselves.

They stick together better as a team and practice as a team.

Those are just a few of the things where I see a difference.

Great post!

 

[vjmehra]

Did everyone see what was going on with the ref and team USA during SVB vs. Shaw in the last match? The ref said something to the US bench after SVB broke dry at 3-2. Then after the rack the ref admonished JJ, saying ”you accused me” or something, and JJ said “I shook my head, I’m allowed to shake my head” lol. Then Emily Fraser had to come and tell them to cut it out. It looked to me like the ref over-reacted a bit to a pretty mild complaint about the rack from JJ.

I was curious about this too, Emily Frazer dragged Marcel off and then nothing more was said, even the commentary team didn't mention it (which is slightly odd for a Matchroom production as they LOVE any kind of drama/rivalry narrative).

 

[The_JV]

PS The inclusion of Canada just to get Alex on the team has never been a good idea in the eyes of this fan, and with Alex in his forties, it's a patch rather than a solution.

Fair enough... Speaking as a Canadian, as a whole it always bugs me a little when the USA call themselves "Team America". We are just as "American" in terms of the continent but yet are excluded from the equation. Honestly though, that complaint is moot because I'd rather have a Team Canada in the Mosconi cup. Not that I think we can field a team to compete with the Euros at all and it pains me to admit it, but we wouldn't beat the USA either. However we do have some decent talent beyond Alex, and having a world stage I think would do wonders for the game locally.

I'll just assume the USA would rather keep the Mosconi a two team event. "Us against the world" sort of thing. I think the best approach for Matchroom though, would be to open up such a Mosconi format to other qualifying nations and host a "World Cup of Pool" event akin to Soccer (Football).

That unfortunately would create a taller totem pole for team USA to slide further down. ....and most likely exclude Canada from ever qualifying to compete...lol. It would make the Mosconi more entertaining in terms of pool though.

 

[JAM]

USA has no professional tour, and the BCA eliminated their support for professional pool, i.e., BCA Open (invitational), et cetera.

Europe has the European Pocket Billiard Federation (EPBF): https://www.epbf.com/

With Matchroom stepping up to the plate and investing money into pool with beautiful events like the U.S. Open, Mosconi Cup, and others, you would think the blue-blooded industry members of the BCA would support this endeavor. After all, isn't the BCA (Billiard Congress of America) supposed to be the governing body of professional pool?