Sometimes Why Bother

Johnnyt

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
I owed a guy a favor. To pay the favor back he wanted me to go to his house and watch him play a few minutes on his table and then show him what he might be doing wrong after 5 years of playing. I watched him run a rack of 15 balls twice. First time 3 missed balls 2nd rack 4.

I could see his stroke wan't very straight so I asked him to hit the far middle diamond with center cb and no spin. After he shot the shot 4 times and was way off on them he said, "Come on lets move on to something else. this shot don't come up that often anyhow. I just walked out. Johnnyt
 
When that happens to me and they are looking for guidance I tell them to take two weeks off from shooting and then quit the game.:D
 
Johnnyt said:
I owed a guy a favor. To pay the favor back he wanted me to go to his house and watch him play a few minutes on his table and then show him what he might be doing wrong after 5 years of playing. I watched him run a rack of 15 balls twice. First time 3 missed balls 2nd rack 4.

I could see his stroke wan't very straight so I asked him to hit the far middle diamond with center cb and no spin. After he shot the shot 4 times and was way off on them he said, "Come on lets move on to something else. this shot don't come up that often anyhow. I just walked out. Johnnyt
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Yeah I know how you feel, I had this guy asking me for pointers all the time. One night after league he asked me how get good draw on the cue ball, I showed him how to do it and he then proceeded to tell me why I wasn't right! Lol, one thing I know how to do well is apply spin to a CB.

Oh well, no more info for him.

You probably did the right thing, some folks just refuse to learn the basics. They would rather try to run before learning to walk.
 
Johnnyt said:
First time 3 missed balls 2nd rack 4.

I just walked out. Johnnyt
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Missed only 7 balls in 2 racks, pretty good shooting :bow-down:

And, since you walked out, you still owe him that favor :D

Seriously, there comes a point when you dont have enough time to try to help people that dont want to help themselves.......
 
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Cdryden said:
Yeah I know how you feel, I had this guy asking me for pointers all the time. One night after league he asked me how get good draw on the cue ball, I showed him how to do it and he then proceeded to tell me why I wasn't right! Lol, one thing I know how to do well is apply spin to a CB.

Oh well, no more info for him.

You probably did the right thing, some folks just refuse to learn the basics. They would rather try to run before learning to walk.
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I don't go on tilt easily but when a student responds to my instruction with "Well, I do it like this", the hair raises up on the back of my neck.
 
Joey,
I getcha, a guy that I knew used to come in with his teenaged son. Kid couldn't/wouldn't make a decent bridge, even an open one.


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JoeyA said:
I don't go on tilt easily but when a student responds to my instruction with "Well, I do it like this", the hair raises up on the back of my neck.
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I bet! If I'm going to pay someone to tell me how to do something you better believe I'm going to be paying attention.
 
Johhny part of being a teacher and mentor is to have a ton of patience. My favorite example is when I was completing a study on electromagnetic fields and waves in college I just couldn't understand some of it. I had a really good professor that made sure I understood it.

Just stick with it and if you dont have the time to help him out just let him know. Also explain to him that it's important to know where the center of the cue ball is because everything really stems from that. Sometimes a good explanation will get him back on task.
 
JoeyA said:
I don't go on tilt easily but when a student responds to my instruction with "Well, I do it like this", the hair raises up on the back of my neck.
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What??? You have STUDENTS?? And you expect me to play you EVEN????

Short Bus Russ
 
For the most part, I try to make myself available to anyone who is willing to ask - especially my team mates.

One evening during league play one of my players asked me to give him assistance with his game. Of course I gladly obliged. If I recall correctly he was a sl5 in the APA at the time.

I had him break a rack of 8ball then take ball in hand. I wanted to watch him choose which suit and then wanted him to tell my why and we would go from there.

He plops the cueball down, reaches under the table and grabs the bridge to set-up on a very difficult shot - for his very first shot - with ball in hand. I immediately stopped him and began to explain that he shouldn't put himself in such a challenging situation right off the get go - especially with ball in hand. I showed him a few better options.

He blatantly ignored my suggestions and said he was going to still shoot with the bridge because he felt that was his 'best' option.

I told him I couldn't help him if he wasn't willing to try. He still ignored my suggestions and shrugged off my advice.

I find it difficult and it pains me to employ patience when folks come up to you to ask for help, you offer your knowledge, your insight, you share your feelings, you implore them to not make simple mistakes...yet they still continue to make the same old bad decisions and refuse the advice that they sought from you to begin with.

I know exactly what you are talking about.

Steve H.
 
That touches on one of the issues with learning/teaching a game like pool. Humans tend to be results oriented thinkers. A player may finish a night thinking they played lights out. When asked what they did they may say, "I hopped on one leg with both hands tied behind my back and the balls were flying all over the place". The fact balls went in led the player to believe that they were doing something right, when obviously that procedure isn't likely to result in long term consistency.

That's why many pool players struggle with consistency. It is the problem the original poster is sharing. The player is looking for results rather than a procedure. Players often don't like practice methods such as described because they don't correlate it with results -- in pool the ball falling in the pocket. They may fight any instruction because, at least some of the time, they are seeing the results they are looking for. Perhaps it is a slight twist in the stroke that is occasionally compensated for through exact timing or another issue that generates a pattern of results within a set the player finds appealing.

What we seek to do is to define what we do as a procedure that, when done correctly can expect to see the desired results. Not the other way around.
 
Years ago I gave lessons at a pool room in NJ.Had a new student one night so I threw out some balls and said "run the table" I watched as he struggled. Now I had an idea what his skill level was. So the first hour we worked on stroke and stance fundementals. Next lesson we worked on draw and follow. He could not draw or follow with any degree of accuracy as far as distance was concerned,so we worked on that. Next lesson we continued to work on the basics when half way thru he says"When are you going to teach me to run a rack of 9 ball? I said probably in a year or so of lessons. Last lesson I gave that guy.
I then set a minimum skill level that I would teach. Patience was never a strong point with me.
Also when I try to help someone now days and they give me the "Well this is what I do" and I am positive that it is the wrong way. I just give up. Why bother.
Also thru the years I have noticed that each skill level of pool player thinks on a differant level. When i am asked how I would play a pattern and I get in to some deep tactical stuff and I just get a blank look,again why bother.
 
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This reminds me of the aiming system zealots. Like a moth to a flame, they'll go back to what they're interested in, not what will make them a better player. Fix your stroke, THEN worry about aiming.

As far as teaching goes, just try to instill belief into them and let them get on with it.
 
brophog said:
That touches on one of the issues with learning/teaching a game like pool. Humans tend to be results oriented thinkers. A player may finish a night thinking they played lights out. When asked what they did they may say, "I hopped on one leg with both hands tied behind my back and the balls were flying all over the place". The fact balls went in led the player to believe that they were doing something right, when obviously that procedure isn't likely to result in long term consistency.

That's why many pool players struggle with consistency. It is the problem the original poster is sharing. The player is looking for results rather than a procedure. Players often don't like practice methods such as described because they don't correlate it with results -- in pool the ball falling in the pocket. They may fight any instruction because, at least some of the time, they are seeing the results they are looking for. Perhaps it is a slight twist in the stroke that is occasionally compensated for through exact timing or another issue that generates a pattern of results within a set the player finds appealing.

What we seek to do is to define what we do as a procedure that, when done correctly can expect to see the desired results. Not the other way around.
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Thank you for this right on post. Johnnyt
 
sjharr said:
For the most part, I try to make myself available to anyone who is willing to ask - especially my team mates.

One evening during league play one of my players asked me to give him assistance with his game. Of course I gladly obliged. If I recall correctly he was a sl5 in the APA at the time.

I had him break a rack of 8ball then take ball in hand. I wanted to watch him choose which suit and then wanted him to tell my why and we would go from there.

He plops the cueball down, reaches under the table and grabs the bridge to set-up on a very difficult shot - for his very first shot - with ball in hand. I immediately stopped him and began to explain that he shouldn't put himself in such a challenging situation right off the get go - especially with ball in hand. I showed him a few better options.

He blatantly ignored my suggestions and said he was going to still shoot with the bridge because he felt that was his 'best' option.

I told him I couldn't help him if he wasn't willing to try. He still ignored my suggestions and shrugged off my advice.

I find it difficult and it pains me to employ patience when folks come up to you to ask for help, you offer your knowledge, your insight, you share your feelings, you implore them to not make simple mistakes...yet they still continue to make the same old bad decisions and refuse the advice that they sought from you to begin with.

I know exactly what you are talking about.

Steve H.
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What I hate is when they go ahead and in this instance shoot it with the bridge, it happens to wokr out and then they tell me I am wrong because they got out or what ever. I hammered into my kids, just because you got out, doesnt mean you did it right. lol
 
T-dog said:
What I hate is when they go ahead and in this instance shoot it with the bridge, it happens to wokr out and then they tell me I am wrong because they got out or what ever. I hammered into my kids, just because you got out, doesnt mean you did it right. lol
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That is so true. But try to get thru a bangers head. :bash:
 
A few thoughts based on 25 years of college teaching.
1. You have to start where the student is at this time.
2. You have to find something right with what they did to hold their interest.
3. If it is your idea it is probably not worthwhile as I would have thought of it already. If it is someone else’s idea it might be useful. This caveat only holds until the student (not you) knows that you might know more than he knows.

Based on the above you missed an opportunity to teach. Have him run a rack and after each miss ask why he thinks he missed. Listen to his answer, re-set the balls and have him try his idea again. If he misses again we start over until he says, “Why do you think I missed?”

“Well,” I said, “I am not sure why you missed but here is something a good player I know does. You might try to make that ball this way by concentrating on this. Re-set the balls and try again.” If he does not get it right show him what he did wrong and how the “other” guy did it.

People solve problems when they have problems to solve. If he is not having a problem what is there to learn.

The first premise in the psychology of learning is the idea that you have to have a hungry rat if you want to teach the rat make him hungry. Works with people too.

Often times, especially in something like playing pool, people don’t want to hear about “theory.” They just want to solve a problem. Use their problem to show a solution to that problem. When enough problems have been “solved” the student has a theory because we look for ways to generalize what we have learned to new situations.

Early in my teaching career I over heard a graduate student tell another student, “Don’t ask Joe what time it is because he will tell you how his watch works.” I had to learn not to do that.

Unfortunately we often know what we want to teach, but you need a hungry audience first.
 
Part of the problem with being an American is the ideal that we are all equal. Credentials, reputation and lots of other stuff have little value when it comes to teaching. You are no better than me is a strongly held belief. So begin with the idea that you are simply the senior student in the room and you will get much further with your adult (or young adult) students.

In nearly all of my years of teaching my students were told to call me "Joe" because they were my colleague in the pursuit of knowledge. It is amazing how students respond when they know that you know you are just another guy.

It is a simple matter to find fault with the student., It takes a little more thought to find what we can do to help them learn.

Friends used to ask me why I taught cops and corrections people. The simple answer I gave was that I wanted them to think about it before they hit people. This usually got a laugh. If you think about it for a moment the real answer has to do with the idea that you have to start where people are. These students want to enforce the law and keep the peace. Now how do we solve that problem with out ever saying that touchy feely word, “psychology?” There are things these students need to know if they are to do their jobs well and they do not think it involves psychology (for the most part) Hmmm.

I hope that you see there are many similarities to teaching pool players.
 
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