Stainless Joints

[desi2960]

Snooker john

Stopped by my place and we played couple games of one pocket while talking about cues. I had a titlist conversion he wanted to buy, but wanted me to change the linen fiber joint to ss. He said he just has to have the ss on his cues because he likes the hit. I did not make the sale because i was afraid of how the cue would play. I have made 600 cues in the last 20 plus years, and i think only 4 have had ss joint. I simply just dont like it.

 

[PRED]

Stopped by my place and we played couple games of one pocket while talking about cues. I had a titlist conversion he wanted to buy, but wanted me to change the linen fiber joint to ss. He said he just has to have the ss on his cues because he likes the hit. I did not make the sale because i was afraid of how the cue would play. I have made 600 cues in the last 20 plus years, and i think only 4 have had ss joint. I simply just dont like it.

You could sleeve that SS joint with Linen.

 

[cueman]

Stopped by my place and we played couple games of one pocket while talking about cues. I had a titlist conversion he wanted to buy, but wanted me to change the linen fiber joint to ss. He said he just has to have the ss on his cues because he likes the hit. I did not make the sale because i was afraid of how the cue would play. I have made 600 cues in the last 20 plus years, and i think only 4 have had ss joint. I simply just dont like it.

John once said he rarely missed a ball with the non stainless joint cue I built for him many years ago. Then someone local changed his tip and he quit playing with it for a while. That goes to show something as small as the tip makes a world of difference.

 

[cueman]

How much extra time and work do you reckon it takes to do all the above? How much of this requires precision above & beyond a build that none this happens on?

For contrast, buy pre-made .015" or .030" metal rings & sadndwich them between a .090" black fiber ring & a piece of phenolic. Use any white plastic butt cap that can be finished over with the rest of the cue. Cut the shaft pilot so it doesn't actually contact the steel. Put 4 points in with a 1/4" gap at base. Cut the diamonds on a panto or CNC with a .035" end mill so they just pop in place. This cue is easy & fast and will net you a couple hundred bucks IF you sell it at all. The cue you describe requires significantly more time, much more precision, a lot more hand labor & attention to detail. People will pay for it because you cared and the work shows it. The other cue looks like you were trying to cash in without putting in the effort. These are two totally different cues made in the same exact style. One will be a success and one will be a failure, all because of attention to detail.

If that was the kind of cue I was going to build over and over those extra details would barely add an hour or two to my hands on time. If the equipment is set up dedicated for that purpose the precision would be very little extra work to maintain.

 

[Tommy-D]

Another point that hasn't been mentioned until now is probably an overlooked detail to some.

Cutting a piece of stainless on what is a .010 per inch taper is easy enough with proper setup/tooling on whatever lathe you are using.

Making that piece of stainless look like a mirror with that taper AND on size to match your finish is probably tougher than it looks. Tommy D.

 

[ahhbach]

SS Joints

Could it be that todays different joints offer even more customization options? Stainless Steel unless some serious engraving work looks the same almost all the time. I ask this because I currently have a Mottey and a Dale Perry(pre mass production) and both of them have SS joints. I have 6 or 8 other cues as well and none of them are SS. I like the feel I get from the SS Joint and have been perusing the FS/FT forum and I have noticed that unless I want to pay HUGE money nobody offers the SS joint except production cues.

 

[qbilder]

If that was the kind of cue I was going to build over and over those extra details would barely add an hour or two to my hands on time. If the equipment is set up dedicated for that purpose the precision would be very little extra work to maintain.

The same could be said for any style of cue. If it's what you do & your shop is set up specifically for it, of course you'll be more efficient at it. An hour or two extra time sounds quite off to me, though. It's one thing to imagine what it would take to make that cue, and altogether something else to have real world experience making that cue.

 

[spktur]

I have 6 shafts for my old block letter Joss.

2 of them are Stroud shafts and are compression fit. Very nice. Perhaps it demonstrates how accurately the original stainless joint collar and pin were installed.

The other shafts are 2 Joss, and 2 Scruggs. Very nice, but not compression fit.

It seems the makers that were commonly using stainless are still doing it. Some have retired like Stroud and Mottey, they commonly used it. And then there are some other big name custom makers who seem to still do it as a standard. Granted it seems to be the older makers. AFAIK it is still pretty much still a standard joint for Barry. Of course his dad did a lot of them. Tasc still offers it as the standard joint. I believe Frey still does it. Dayton too. I think it is still standard for Russ Espiritu.

Among the "production" cues...Joss and Schon still do stainless mainly.

You see a stainless collar on a lot of McDermott's highest end cues even still. Cues that sell for thousands.

Viking still offers the stainless collar.

For imports, Adam does a ton of them, especially in their traditional designs.



Certainly the big pin into wood has gained a lot of popularity, but the traditional 5/16x14 piloted stainless seems to be holding it's own, along with variations using the stainless collar.

It is "old". Many of those custom makers that used it as a standard did the ivory joint as an upgrade.

It seems classic to me, and still strongly represented.

If it was good enough for George and Gus, and Joss and Schon are still doing it, it seems to be holding its own for the time being.

It hasn't gone out of style, it is simply less popular. But IMHO still a major player when I can cite so many custom and production makers still using it, and some still primarily using it as a standard.


I am not a cue maker though, so perhaps the gentlemen that make the cues have better insight.

.

Doc, compression fit shafts aren't that big a deal, any decent cue maker or repairman can make you some compression fit shafts but they will need the but to fit to.

 

[Chopdoc]

Doc, compression fit shafts aren't that big a deal, any decent cue maker or repairman can make you some compression fit shafts but they will need the but to fit to.

Did I say they were a big deal?

I don't even think I implied it.

Considering the shafts I have, I don't need to have any made.:wink:

.

 

[spktur]

Did I say they were a big deal?

I don't even think I implied it.

Considering the shafts I have, I don't need to have any made.:wink:

.

Sorry, didn't mean to offend. But this is why I got that idea.

' Perhaps it demonstrates how accurately the original stainless joint collar and pin were installed.'

 

[Chopdoc]

Sorry, didn't mean to offend. But this is why I got that idea.

' Perhaps it demonstrates how accurately the original stainless joint collar and pin were installed.'

I am not offended. :smile:

That comment was in direct response to a previous post where it was said that compression fit required a very accurately installed pin and collar.

Seems to make sense. I do not know how true it is or how important it is. All I know is that I have two compression for shafts that were not original. The original shafts, though piloted, are not compression fit.

Based on the previous comment I was responding to it would seem to suggest that my Joss pin and collar were very accurately installed.

That's all that was about. And as I said, I don'tr know how important it is or how true it is.

The intention of my post was to cite current makers and manufacturers still using steel collars to support the notion that although less popular it is still well represented.

The comment about my cue was an aside referring to a comment somebody else had made.

This is the post the comment pertained to:

I don't like how heavy they are. Makes it hard to keep a neutral balance. My shafts at 13mm generally come out to around 3.8-4.2oz naturally, so adding a brass insert makes them a bit unwieldy. Combine that with a heavy collar and it forces the balance too forward.

I don't think cutting is an issue. It's not terribly difficult to cut a stainless joint. I have done it on a few cues with no heavy lathe, and had no problem. The trick with stainless is getting a nice compression fit. Guys that make a compression fit know what they're doing. Showman is the best I have seen. To get the compression fit, the collar has to be installed dead nuts on center with the cue and pin. If you haven't done one it's hard to explain how difficult it can be to get right. There's a huge difference in precision between a typical stainless joint and a compression fit joint. Imo, it's what separates the big boys from the rest of the pack, in the realm of steel joints.

 

[William]

Why does it seem, at least to me, that Stainless Joints seem to have gone out of style? Any particular reason?

Thanks
Brian Murphy

I would say that would depend on who you ask. Some of the longest lists for a cue and most desirable cue makers have made their mark using stainless steel joints.

 

[searingcue]

What the heck!

What has always puzzled me about piloted stainless joint cues that fit tight with four veneered points and a little simple inlay work, is the price people are willing to pay for something so unoriginal.
I can do that kind of work easily, but I feel I would not be putting out my best playing cue so I rarely build stainless joints. But if cuemaking was all about the money for me that is what I would build. Simple, easy and expensive. Sounds nice.

Hi Chris,
You've made it clear you don't like stainless joints and you're far from alone which is fine, but there are a lot of people who do like them and request it.
Most of us who will make a stainless piloted joint cue also make cues without stainless or piloted. For you to try to INCORRECTLY mislead people into thinking piloted stainless jointed cues are easier to do than flat faced cues and implying building stainless joint cues is a sort of copout for easy money is not only shitty on your part, it's insulting.
I think it's unbecoming of somebody in your position as president of the ICA to be knocking any style of cue built by a portion of your members in the ICA.
You could have answered the OP's question in so many different ways and without the insults.
Dennis Searing

Brian,
There are still a lot of people who like and request a stainless joint in one configuration or another from me. It seems to be more popular with the players who started playing before the wave of low deflection equipment. I think if you're a player who started playing with low deflection equipment which is becoming more predominate a stainless joint with it's extra weight probably won't be your best fit.
Thank you, Dennis

 

[PRED]

Thank you, Dennis

Do you sleeve your SS joints?

 

[qbilder]

Having built a few stainless jointed cues, I can unequivocally say it is overall more difficult than building my typical style. Cue for cue, to get the same hit & feel, the stainless cue is harder to do. I'm not one who believes one style hits or plays better than another. I believe a good cue hits good & crap hits like crap. While one guy may be able to build a better big pin cue than he can a steel joint cue, it doesn't mean big pin cues are better. It only means he doesn't know how to build a steel jointed cue. I have hit with great cues from various styles so there's no doubt in my mind quality lies within the builder, not the style.

 

[JoeyInCali]

I am going to maintain my position on my opinion that most makers today are not equipped to do a great SS collared cue. And certainly, most are not willing to do it or even try it . Me included.
I once plotted my forearm taper on Inventor. I found out the angle is not 5 degrees . It was less. Let's put it a 4.5 degrees.
How many makers are willing to set their compound at 4.5*( most tapers today fall within .013"-.014" afaik ) and leave it at that ?
Never mind that you would really want a collet closer or non-jawed chuck to take an accurate angle pass on that SS collar . Not to mention you are going to keep it oversized so when you spray and polish finish under it, it will blend in.

How many are willing to use a black phenolic ROD and turn it down to fit the SS collar and have a near bullet proof band ( it's not even a ring by then ) ?

If makers really wanted to do SS collars right, those 5/8 18 dies wouldn't be sold today. Just my opinion.

Flat face non-steel collared cues are much easier to make. You install the collars while the cue is still oversized. You taper the whole thing on your taper machine . Can't really do that with SS collared butts unless you like sparks flying all over . And if you did, you'll have to have finish over that SS collar to match with the rest of the butt.

My 2 cents. Could be worth less on holy week.

 

[qbilder]

I am going to maintain my position on my opinion that most makers today are not equipped to do a great SS collared cue. And certainly, most are not willing to do it or even try it . Me included.
I once plotted my forearm taper on Inventor. I found out the angle is not even half a degree. It was less. Let's put it a .045 degrees.
How many makers are willing to set their compound to a less than half a degree ( most tapers today fall within .013"-.014" afaik ) and leave it at that ?
Never mind that you would really want a collet closer or non-jawed chuck to take an accurate angle pass on that SS collar . Not to mention you are going to keep it oversized so when you spray and polish finish under it, it will blend in.

How many are willing to use a black phenolic ROD and turn it down to fit the SS collar and have a near bullet proof band ( it's not even a ring by then ) ?

If makers really wanted to do SS collars right, those 5/8 18 dies wouldn't be sold today. Just my opinion.

Flat face non-steel collared cues are much easier to make. You install the collars while the cue is still oversized. You taper the whole thing on your taper machine . Can't really do that with SS collared butts unless you like sparks flying all over . And if you did, you'll have to have finish over that SS collar to match with the rest of the butt.

My 2 cents. Could be worth less on holy week.

I agree with everything except the very first line. With my ill equipped shop, I have no trouble figuring out how to fit & shave a stainless joint. Cutting stainless isn't as much about the machine as it is spindle speed and cutter profile, but a person has to learn it. As you pointed out, it's already more difficult just installing and fitting the thing. Now you have to polish it. That's an acquired skill in itself.

 

[searingcue]

Stainless

Do you sleeve your SS joints?

I haven’t. I’ve threaded a number of different materials
over the top of stainless joints making it so you don’t see
the stainless at all, as well as just halfway up only. Always threaded.
Dennis

PS; Nice bass!!

 

[Bumlak]

Lots of guys try it & lots of guys fail. They're chasing the money rather than actually being interested in exemplifying the style because of true appreciation. The common scapegoat is name. A guy complains about not having the name so nobody is interested in his cues. The truth is the cues are wrong. If they were right, the name would happen organically, and soon behind it would be the success. Cue makers of any style would do themselves service to familiarize themselves with and adhere to the golden ratio. It's obvious most do not, and likely never will, but it is one of the critical reasons that explain why some guys can't give a cue away while others seem like the goose who lays golden eggs.

Proportion is critical in any style, but on the simple classic style it is huge. But even it isn't enough. Not only does your proportioning have to be spot on, you also have to execute the work cleanly. Gaps in miters and black filler around ill fit inlays will kill a cue. Broadly rounded inlay corners will kill a cue. The delrin cap not smooth to the finish hurts. A joint that isn't a comfortable compression fit will kill a cue. With so many guys working with this style, you have to do a great job AND have everything proportioned correctly in order to have a chance at succeeding.

Lots of guys try it & lots of guys fail. They're chasing the money rather than actually being interested in exemplifying the style because of true appreciation.

And THAT, to me is truly the key. I was fortunate enough to "grow up" playing with Szamboti's, Balabushka's, Black's and Joss Wests on pretty much a daily basis. I admired the consistency and playability....but I was INFATUATED with the look. I appreciate skill in craft and if you put a beautiful cue in front of me, I'm going to appreciate it and the craftsmanship it took to create. But if you put an old school classic in front of me, I'll grin from ear to ear. I can't tell you why. But that "upbringing" in cues is why I use 1.5" milk white delrin and R5 bumpers in my cues and use simple and, imho, elegant ring work.

 

[HawaiianEye]

Lots of guys try it & lots of guys fail. They're chasing the money rather than actually being interested in exemplifying the style because of true appreciation.

And THAT, to me is truly the key. I was fortunate enough to "grow up" playing with Szamboti's, Balabushka's, Black's and Joss Wests on pretty much a daily basis. I admired the consistency and playability....but I was INFATUATED with the look. I appreciate skill in craft and if you put a beautiful cue in front of me, I'm going to appreciate it and the craftsmanship it took to create. But if you put an old school classic in front of me, I'll grin from ear to ear. I can't tell you why. But that "upbringing" in cues is why I use 1.5" milk white delrin and R5 bumpers in my cues and use simple and, imho, elegant ring work.

I agree. I grew up playing with "old school" cues with stainless steel joints. I have cues with other joints, but I am partial to the steel ones. There is something about them that makes them look more "classic" to me.

One of my favorite cues is my Titlist conversion by Mike Pancerny. It is simple in the old school style: delrin butt cap, brown bumper, green/white Irish linen, stainless steel 5/16-14 pin/joint with compression fit, and black collars with single silver rings. I had it made in the style of an original Balabushka Titlist conversion that I had a picture of, but I had the butt slimmed down into a more modern style.