Starting Cue Collection, Need Advice

M

michael103150

SHOOTER
As a newbie I hope it's OK to seek advice in this forum when I'm not buying or selling. Anyway, I started shooting pool again last summer after a 7 year hiatus due to illness and feel I am now ready to buy a decent playing cue and a J/B, was thinking about McDermott Sedona and Gullyassay.
However, after seeing the great custom cues offered by members here, I decided that was the way to go, especially since buyers seem to offer sellers 10% to 20% less than the asking price.
This leads me to my first question, on custom cue sites like chalkers.com, billiardcue.com and cornerstonecustomcues.com is it OK to offer them less than their asking price or would they be offended. I assume some AZ members have dealt with them and know how they react to lower offers.
The more I looked at beautiful cues the more I wanted to start a collection and figured that keeping money in banks is useless anyway so I decided to drop 5 or 6 grand on maybe 3 or 4 cues. What I would like to know from members doing this for a few years, can I expect to at least break even if wish to sell cues down the road, assuming I made wise selections when buying them.
Lastly, I've heard that it's presently a buyers market, true or not?
Thanks,
michael103150
 
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it is a buyers market at the moment. no you will not offend dealers by making an offer.. all they can do is say yes or no and most are used to negotiating. as far as resale value there are no gurantees but the hard to obtain cuemakers that are not taking orders currently seem to hold their value well(bluegrass, southwest,etc...) but as with any collection i recommend buying what you like with the intention of enjoying the item and if it appreciates in value then that is a bonus.
 
i have delt with 2 online guys PM me for details, like anything their are good and bad, both I delt with are 100% stand up guys, pm me and i'll tell you who they are, its not approiate to publically discuss I dont want to knock anyone, i havent had a problem so I couldnt knock anyone if I wanted too.

Buying from the on-line guys is the move, unless your buying a $100 cue the shipping would eat up the savings. If your spending $300 or more i'd do the on-line thing. and yes they will negoatate, like any market who wins the negoation gets the $$$, its not like walking into a store and the price is the price, but they arnt gonna knock half off, their margines are pretty slim
 
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Your post sounds alot like I was years ago after I lost a chunk of change in stocks . I decided I could do better with my money or part of it than stock brokers could . I haven't looked back !!
Two schools of collecting that I use is collect "no brainers" These are cues that were made by no longer active cue makers . I tend to collect less of these cues becouse there increase in value moves a bit slower than the up and commers most of the time. Still if you can put your hands on an old Palmer ( Just one of many makers) at a good price there always a great investment .
Collect what you like. When looking at customs and there's a boat full of them. Stick with stuff you fall in love with. It's "Your" Collection so collect the cues that are pretty to you !
If you really like it chances are others will to when it's time to resale .
Find trusted collectors and seek advice !!
If you find a cue that just crys to you "take me home" But your not sure if it's worth the 3k asking or if it's a 1.5k cue . Find someone who knows .Just make sure when you show it to them there not going to go behind you and buy it . In other words don't jump on the forum and ask "guys what's this worth" . You can bet if it's a good buy you just lost it !!!
Well off to work .
Later Bill
Yes it is a buyers market ...
 
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well you can never go wrong with a (gus,barry)szamboti ,,but if you looking for other greats try schick,hercek and searing to start..my email if you like a bit of free advice kc7665@aol.com my website highendcues.com thank you ken carfagno
 
I have seen Ken's Cues...

in person...stunning collection.
You can't go wrong with Szam and my first stop would be with Ken for the best selection of Szams! Another great once removed from Barry is Art Cantando...great cue, great value.

kchighendcues said:
well you can never go wrong with a (gus,barry)szamboti ,,but if you looking for other greats try schick,hercek and searing to start..my email if you like a bit of free advice kc7665@aol.com my website highendcues.com thank you ken carfagno
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Buy the most significant cue you can

Like any investment, antiques, collector cars, real estate, etc. the most significant pieces will always be sought after in any market and will less likely to take large falls in value. In a hot market, they will be the ones to defy all logic. Cues that can't be replaced, a style that you enjoy and by a maker that is very respected will always do well. Last night, I was playing with this Tim Scruggs I bought in 1984 for $600. I always liked the cue and had it refinished by Tim about 6 years ago. Was it a good investment? I don't know, however I was blown away with the comments I was getting about the cue. At that point it seemed like a great investment.
 

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Yea, it was worth it...

ChipD said:
Like any investment, antiques, collector cars, real estate, etc. the most significant pieces will always be sought after in any market and will less likely to take large falls in value. In a hot market, they will be the ones to defy all logic. Cues that can't be replaced, a style that you enjoy and by a maker that is very respected will always do well. Last night, I was playing with this Tim Scruggs I bought in 1984 for $600. I always liked the cue and had it refinished by Tim about 6 years ago. Was it a good investment? I don't know, however I was blown away with the comments I was getting about the cue. At that point it seemed like a great investment.
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I don't think you would have too much trouble getting your money back out of that raggedy old Scruggs.:D Nice cue

Michael, I think everyone on here so far has given you solid advice. Invest in a Blue Book...won't give you any true values, but you can get some great information when you are curious, especially about when a cue was made, etc. If you buy quality cues from quality makers, you won't have any issues at all. The level of your cues of course depends on the amount of money you have available. Ken's list of certain cuemakers is one that you can't go wrong with. Just below those cuemakers are some of those who are really sought out and those who are probably nearing the end of their careers. Scruggs, Tascarella, and a few others. One thing I will say is that the cue dealers and forum members on here all have a great passion for the game and the cues, and they have no problem at all with sharing their knowledge with someone, so ask questions, get to know a few folks, and just communicate with them. Best of luck, and welcome to a new addiction.
Joe
 
Five or six grand might get you into one Szamboti. There is a Balabushka listed here that might be a good place to start as well. Most,if not all of these cues are in the hands of knowledgeable collectors and you will pay accordingly.The most sought after examples of these two legends bring huge sums of money and are rarely available. Check out Pool Table Magic for a couple examples of high end Szamboti's. Fourtyfive to seventyfive thousand range,now that is investment quality! The Palmers can still be found floating around for a great price. Check out AZ member Tate's website, palmercollector.com for the skinny on the most sought after Palmers.
There are a tremendous amount of up and comming cuemakers,as well as established cuemakers that are held in high regard here. Values are subjective and divided into several camps,the style of cue seperating them.
Another segement of collectable cues are the retired cuemakers and the cuemakers that have passed away. Again,there are different camps that hold one over the other for various and subjective reasons.

Cash is king,offers that are reasonable should never cause a problem,just find what you like and bid accordingly.
 
Welcome Newbiee,

You are looking for investment peices and not cues to play with? With that said, I have just the investment plan for you! I would buy cues that belonged to famous players first! If you look at cornerstone's website Mizerak's Gus Szamboti fetches 2 to 3 times the market value because he used to play with it. I would buy some of Ginky's old cues, John Schmidt's & Keith McCready's to name a few. The cue will do much better on resale!!! And the sky is the limit if you encounter a fan of that player!!! So, hang around the players and scope up cues with "History". Plus, it should be aweful fun searching the old Billiard Digest for pictures and proof of the cue in use. I would take some photo's upon purchase and keep a little file. Asian players are good to collect their cues as well. Just be careful with some of the players, they swap cues way to much if you ask me and the more they swap and change cues the less valuable yours is. Jose Parica has gone through a cue from almost every maker give or take a few. That is what many cue makers have said "Publicly on this forum". So, do not want to bad mouth anyone just stating something to be aware of !!!

I would be buying new makers cues! The old school stuff is great and the Market and value is really pretty mature. Plus, the buyers and fans of the older players and makers are retired or nearing retirement. The window of selling to them is very narrow! The best example I can give is the old Rambo cues built in 40's to 60's fetch 1,000 to 2,000.00 on the market while the 60's to 80's made cues are fetching 3,000 to 30,000 on the market! The next wave will be 1980's to 2000's they are your Black Boars, TS, Josswest & etc. These makers all fall into a certain sytle of cue. The new style makers are your Southwest, DPK, OMEGA and those with a non-tradional joints!!! They are great but would only buy those that belonged to a great player!! You can still buy these makers and you need some reason to differentiate your cue from say a new one designed to a persons specifications.

These are just some thoughts and I hope they help!!!

Sincerely,
Kid
Dynotime
 
I disagree with many.

I am not sure I would consider cues a wonderful investment. In fact, most are a terrible investment.

But like most things, stocks, cars, guns, coins, etc. the secret IMO is to buy with a purpose. Purposely looking for undervalued cues. Currently, I think my cues in my collection are worth $25K - $30K. I probably have $10K of cash in them. How did I make the other $15K or so? Buying, trading, and selling. Personally I try to constantly upgrade and dump what I consider overpriced cues. Secondly, I try to buy undervalued cues.

What some examples? I have probably made more money (read cash available for upgrades) on Meucci cues. Personally, I dont particularly like them but I can turn them so fast. If I can pick them up for $50-$75-100 or so and then turn them on ebay or local for 2-300.

I have bought cues from locals for $200-$300 and maybe sent it off for a extra shaft or refinish and then sell it for $1100.

I see a lot of people here and everywhere selling a cue and others saying what a good deal it is. ANY cue is only worth what you can sell it for. Anything else is specualtion. For example, if you see a Rick Howard cue for maybe $600 which may be a good price, if you buy it, is there anyway you can turn it for a profit? ie, price is low because of condition, only one shaft, ext. Now if you spend the money to refinish or add a second shaft is the cue worth enough to make it a good value that you can sell for considerable more than you paid for it?

SO if someone says collect what you like, I think that is terrible advice for investment results. Might be good for collecting, but the investment may not be worth anything.

I try to buy cues at half retail. Like a car, as soon as you buy that Schon that you love, it is worth about half. And when you come to me to sell it, I dont really care how much you have in it!

Again these are my opinions.

Try to limit the number of cues. I work from 13 cues max. Why? Well it keeps me married, and secondly, if I want another cue it makes me turn a cue before I get another. That really helps when you have to make a tough choice, do I really want to get rid of this Omega/dpk to get a Schick?

Try to stay up with market trends. For example, IMO Richard Black cues have really fallen out of favor with alot of buyers in the $1500-$3000 range. I had bought an old RB a few years ago and turned it late last year. I had bought it for $900 and sold it for I think $1450 or so. Cokers are another that I wouldnt buy, as are AE cues. I actually like both of those cuemakers cues but man the resell is terrible on them.

Again my opinion.

So if someone tells you that buying Ginas, Gus, GB, Schick or whoever is a cant lose I disagree. Those cuemakers always have strong demand, but if you paid too much for any of them it will take a long time to get back out.

Know the market, buy underpriced or at least good value cues. Dont fall in love with them if they seem to be falling out of favor.

Best Regards,

ken
 
If you want to buy a cue from a dealer, once you find the cue you want, check a few other sites to get an idea as to value - that will help you decide what to offer. I have never bought from a dealer - I almost always pick up cues from other collectors here on AZ. I think that if a seller says his price is firm, you should respect that, or expect to possibly be ignored. I respond to everyone (unless I forget) but I have been ignored more than a few times. Dealers are more likely to know market value, but also more likely to overprice. Collectors sometimes have inflated ideas as to the value of their cues - just check the AZ forum and you will see almost daily, sellers trying to get 2005 prices today for Scruggs and Mottey cues.

It is definitely a buyer's market now - first prices dropped on average cues, then on nicer custom cues, then you started seeing rare cues become available, then even those dropped in price. I'm guessing this happened because people who planned to eventually sell, decided that they had better get rid of their cues now before the market got even worse. I personally have picked up a few rarer cues recently, and, yes, if I save them they will bring good $$$ later if I decide to sell - so yes, they are an investment in that sense. So this is a great time to start collecting, and to concentrate on 'rare' cues that may not be available again for a while. The question really is when the market will pick up again.

As far as collecting, I think you will be happier if you only collect (keep) cues that you would play with. Just my opinion, but all cues I 'collect' are cues I would have no problem playing with, except the Meucci.
 
runscott said:
If you want to buy a cue from a dealer, once you find the cue you want, check a few other sites to get an idea as to value - that will help you decide what to offer. I have never bought from a dealer - I almost always pick up cues from other collectors here on AZ. I think that if a seller says his price is firm, you should respect that, or expect to possibly be ignored. I respond to everyone (unless I forget) but I have been ignored more than a few times. Dealers are more likely to know market value, but also more likely to overprice. Collectors sometimes have inflated ideas as to the value of their cues - just check the AZ forum and you will see almost daily, sellers trying to get 2005 prices today for Scruggs and Mottey cues.

It is definitely a buyer's market now - first prices dropped on average cues, then on nicer custom cues, then you started seeing rare cues become available, then even those dropped in price. I'm guessing this happened because people who planned to eventually sell, decided that they had better get rid of their cues now before the market got even worse. I personally have picked up a few rarer cues recently, and, yes, if I save them they will bring good $$$ later if I decide to sell - so yes, they are an investment in that sense. So this is a great time to start collecting, and to concentrate on 'rare' cues that may not be available again for a while. The question really is when the market will pick up again.

As far as collecting, I think you will be happier if you only collect (keep) cues that you would play with. Just my opinion, but all cues I 'collect' are cues I would have no problem playing with, except the Meucci.
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I totally agree with you Scott!!!!!!
 
good advice...

There is a lot of good advice in these posts and a lot of posters on this board that understand the market. My advice to you is this, and it's very important. Learn whose advice to take to heart and whose not to. Many a cue collector has been given bad advice early on and wasted a bunch of $$$, then gotten upset and completely out of it later on. CliffsNotes version = do your homework, then enjoy !!
 
Re: Starting Cue Collection Need Advice

I would just like to thank everyone who took the time to provide info and offer advice. I was gone for a day and just checked back to find over a dozen replies.
Most said go for what you like, which is good advice no matter what you are purchasing, or who you are marrying.
I've already bought two Blue Books, 1st and 3rd Editions and have been enjoying them, both for reference and the photography of the cues.
I've decided to place some guidelines on myself so as to limit the choices available. With 5 or 6 grand as a budget I seem to be going from cue to cue saying things like, there's a nice one for $1,800, ooh that one looks great for $2,300. There's just too many options.
For the 1st and 2nd cues I've placed the following criteria, they must be no more than a $1,000 each and must be custom cues, no limited editions.
No stainless steel joints, I don't like the way they play nor the way they look on a pool cue.
Lastly, the cue must have some ivory work, even if it's just a Bushka or box rings. I love the look of ivory inlays, especially in ebony, and its a good selling point if the time comes to move the cue.
By the way, did anyone notice the new Richard Black butterfly splice cue that was sold on E-Bay Thursday night. The cue sold for $1,056 and my bid was second highest. I love Richard Black but not butterfly splice cues or I could have won it. I thought it would have sold for 2 or 2 hundred more than it did but, as several of you stated, the market is soft.
Thanks again,
Michael
 
Sounds like you have a great plan up to the 1k limit.
Most collectable custom cues this would be the base line.
Keep us posted !!!
Bill
 
I really like Ken's post.

You can buy undervalued cues to re-sell for small profits and use the profits to buy "permanent" cues. The trick is learning to spot what is undervalued.

All in all, I would just say buy what you can afford and like. Its that simple. If you want to invest in something that will guaranttee a return - I suggest mutual funds or real-estate. If you want to collect and simply enjoy collecting - the buy cues.

Establish your own set of parameters:

1. Type of cues
2. Price
(whatever else you want to set)

...and GO FOR IT. There is more money in cue collecting than gambling - I'll say that much!
 
michael103150 said:
For the 1st and 2nd cues I've placed the following criteria, they must be no more than a $1,000 each and must be custom cues, no limited editions.
No stainless steel joints, I don't like the way they play nor the way they look on a pool cue. Lastly, the cue must have some ivory work, even if it's just a Bushka or box rings. I love the look of ivory inlays, especially in ebony, and its a good selling point if the time comes to move the cue.
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I would get a "Billiards Encyclopedia" - pricey, but worth it. I would not set a price bottom price as you have done - for really expensive cue-makes, you might happen upon a sneaky pete or plain jane for under $1K that wil give you a good affordable idea of how his cues play. Then you can get fancier.
I would not count out SS joints - I did not like them for a while, and now that's what my player is. I would also not make ivory a 'must' - you could miss out on a nice Spain, SouthWest, etc. if you do that.
 
I'm probably an odd duck here, but I would never consider collectables an "investment". I have collectables, but I make investments. My Investments (mostly no load mutual funds) can be sold by picking up a phone or stoking a keyboard. My collectables are objects I enjoy having around. When I no longer enjoy having a collectable around, I sell it. Sometimes I sell it for more than I paid for it, but I sure wouldn't consider it "investing". Stocks, bonds, and to some extent real estate you don't live in can be considered "investments". Pool cues? Cars? Oriental rugs?
Old guns? Stamps? Coins? You'd better know more than those you are dealing with or you can get burned...badly.
 
pwd72s said:
I'm probably an odd duck here, but I would never consider collectables an "investment". I have collectables, but I make investments. My Investments (mostly no load mutual funds) can be sold by picking up a phone or stoking a keyboard. My collectables are objects I enjoy having around. When I no longer enjoy having a collectable around, I sell it. Sometimes I sell it for more than I paid for it, but I sure wouldn't consider it "investing". Stocks, bonds, and to some extent real estate you don't live in can be considered "investments". Pool cues? Cars? Oriental rugs?
Old guns? Stamps? Coins? You'd better know more than those you are dealing with or you can get burned...badly.
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Example - Many vintage baseball cards have doubled-tripled in price over the last 2-3 years. Some predicted the swing and bought low - now they are selling their investments. Collectibles require a lot of homework, good knowledge of the market, and good sources for buying and selling. But like stocks, they have ups and downs and can be used as investments. It's possible with cues as well, but I don't treat them that way. It has been a break-even hobby for me, and that's all I'm looking for.
 
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