stroking straight question

Scott Lee

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
To the OP...get some quality video analysis of your stroke. That will tell you a lot about what you're doing. Any kind of chicken wing movement, in or out, is due to initiating the swing from the shoulder (piston stroke), instead of a pendulum stroke, which works from the elbow down only. There need not be any involvement of the shoulder, and if you do, expect that your stroke will waver and vary. Swing from the elbow down, and you have a hinge, which will deliver the cuestick in a straight line...unless you screw it up by gripping too tightly. BTW, all involvement of the shoulder begins with gripping the cue tightly. :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Bend your arm at the elbow. The only way your hand can move, is directly toward your shoulder.
If your hand moves to the left or right of your shoulder it has been internally or externally rotated.

The chicken wing moves the cue sideways, or wobbles toward the side unless you compensate.
It's possible to compensate by turning your wrist, but you need good timing that's hard to repeat.

.
 

z0nt0n3r

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
hi everyone once again,actually the main issue was that my shoulders were a bit square.also i'm sure that the head moving offline when getting down contributed to the problems.i think the shoulders being square to the shot line caused the cue to be aligned slightly across the line of aim when down on the shot and the head couldn't be aligned properly,so i had to compensate by turning my wrist to find the correct aim line.a couple of years ago i addressed this issue and tried to turn the hips and shoulders to correct it,(my square feet placement made it more difficult to achieve) but then i started to overtwist the body causing poor alignment once again.but i think the trick is to reach over smoothly with your bridge hand when getting down and twist the hips a bit nice and comfortably and not force the twisting.i have struggled with this in the past and now i still don't do it perfectly on all shots.
 
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slach

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you're interested in technology you should check into the QMD3. One of the things it does is it immediately alerts you with an audible beep when your stroke moves laterally off your target line. It's very sensitive to even the slightest off line movement. You'll instantly hear at what point(s) your stroke moves off line (somewhere in back stroke, during transition or the forward stroke). Using the QMD3 lets you get the feel of a truly straight stroke and ingrain it into your muscle memory. It's far less tedious and more effective then going back and reviewing videos, plus it gives you a LOT of other useful measurements of your strokes.
 

Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Taking the long view

When learning to drive a car, it’s easy to become overwhelmed. The immediate things like pedals, gauges and levers grab attention, until the car starts moving. Now focus moves through the windshield, over the hood to the path of travel. Finding the immediate path newbies fixate trying to keep on a straight and narrow line. Oversteering is common until they learn to extend their vision to the distant lane. That horizon thinking helps get and keep them on a proper course.

The head and eyes, not the cue position, lead the way. Lee Brett talks about starting the aiming and decision making well away from the table. Not only are you standing but you are looking forward, not fixated "’over the hood." Players get visually fixated, "bound", to nearer features. The cue ball, the cue, the eyes, the chin are all immediate attention grabbers. They are the "gauges, pedals and levers" diverting focus. Distance reduces the immediacy.

If you stand well back and look down the target line you can’t be off by much. A 1° deviation at 5 feet equals 1 inch. At 15 feet it’s triple. You would be off by more than a ball width and you would notice. Keeping your head on line and moving forward let’s you keep the line.

Hold the image as you move close enough to allow your foot to join your head on the line. Align the cue/bridge with the elbow hinge, making them one piece. Move the bridge hand side slightly forward and sideways to the line, keeping the head in place. Once the bridge hand finds the line the cue should be there too. Lower the head and feel the upper body shift to the line in the process. Take care to keep the head, foot and bridge on line once they are there.

That head position started from far enough away so that there is no need to question head or cue alignment. The only reason to look at the cue is to make sure it is moving forward down the line. If you feel that you may have moved your head off the line at some point, start over.
 
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z0nt0n3r

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When learning to drive a car, it’s easy to become overwhelmed. The immediate things like pedals, gauges and levers grab attention, until the car starts moving. Now focus moves through the windshield, over the hood to the path of travel. Finding the immediate path newbies fixate trying to keep on a straight and narrow line. Oversteering is common until they learn to extend their vision to the distant lane. That horizon thinking helps get and keep them on a proper course.

The head and eyes, not the cue position, lead the way. Lee Brett talks about starting the aiming and decision making well away from the table. Not only are you standing but you are looking forward, not fixated "’over the hood." Players get visually fixated, "bound", to nearer features. The cue ball, the cue, the eyes, the chin are all immediate attention grabbers. They are the "gauges, pedals and levers" diverting focus. Distance reduces the immediacy.

If you stand well back and look down the target line you can’t be off by much. A 1° deviation at 5 feet equals 1 inch. At 15 feet it’s triple. You would be off by more than a ball width and you would notice. Keeping your head on line and moving forward let’s you keep the line.

Hold the image as you move close enough to allow your foot to join your head on the line. Align the cue/bridge with the elbow hinge, making them one piece. Move the bridge hand side slightly forward and sideways to the line, keeping the head in place. Once the bridge hand finds the line the cue should be there too. Lower the head and feel the upper body shift to the line in the process. Take care to keep the head, foot and bridge on line once they are there.

That head position started from far enough away so that there is no need to question head or cue alignment. The only reason to look at the cue is to make sure it is moving forward down the line. If you feel that you may have moved your head off the line at some point, start over.

thanks for the advice.the thing is that aligning the shoulders/elbow eliminates only one variable and even if i align my body to the cue perfectly,it doesn't mean that i have aligned the cue to the aim line perfectly.when i start playing bad and missing a lot of balls,it's because i start placing the cue slightly across the line of aim or sometimes i aim with a hair of english when i intend to hit center ball or the opposite,i intend to put a touch of english but the cue lands center ball.now the logical correction would be when i aim incorrectly,to stand back up and start the process again but when i don't play that well or play poorly i do it so many times that i would literally have to stand back up on almost every shot.so i don't stand back up most of the time and i make a correction by turning the wrist to pocket the balls and i have developed a crooked stroke over the years,(but when i start aiming correctly i notice that the stroke starts straightening out immediately).
i think it's a visual perception issue (from the standing position until my bridge lands on the table) and i don't think there is a quick fix,maybe i need more hours of practice and more video taping of me playing to see when my visual perception starts to go wrong.
 
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z0nt0n3r

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
i think it's like the user deraltefritz said in the thread 'vision center and what not to do about it' : "as far as alignment goes, if you don't strive for the most accurate setup, you must live with the consequences".
 

deraltefritz

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
... and even if i align my body to the cue perfectly,it doesn't mean that i have aligned the cue to the aim line perfectly. ...
As they say in snooker, don't bring the cue to the chest, bring the chest to the cue. If you know your cue is aligned, and then align your body in relation to it, you can use it as a guide, as demonstrated in this "trick shot" https://youtu.be/DdT4sMjK1B0?t=165

now the logical correction would be when i aim incorrectly,to stand back up and start the process again but when i don't play that well or play poorly i do it so many times that i would literally have to stand back up on almost every shot.so i don't stand back up most of the time and i make a correction by turning the wrist to pocket the balls and i have developed a crooked stroke over the years,(but when i start aiming correctly i notice that the stroke starts straightening out immediately)

The responses I got in this thread (https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=493246) seem to indicate that it is almost impossible to land perfectly with everything in line. Some minor corrections down in the stance are usually necessary. At least for those shots that require the extra bit of accuracy.

But instead of turning your wrist, maybe try to rotate your shoulders or move the entire upper body (except for the head/eyes which must stay where they are, assuming they were in the right position to start with, which is another source of error). I do the latter as well as slightly moving my bridge hand until the cue and the balls look correctly aligned. That way, my elbow and grip hand are held in a constant and repetitive fashion and the cue is always in contact with the chest to function as a guide.
 
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z0nt0n3r

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
As they say in snooker, don't bring the cue to the chest, bring the chest to the cue. If you know your cue is aligned, and then align your body in relation to it, you can use it as a guide, as demonstrated in this "trick shot" https://youtu.be/DdT4sMjK1B0?t=165



The responses I got in this thread (https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=493246) seem to indicate that it is almost impossible to land perfectly with everything in line. Some minor corrections down in the stance are usually necessary. At least for those shots that require the extra bit of accuracy.

But instead of turning your wrist, maybe try to rotate your shoulders or move the entire upper body (except for the head/eyes which must stay where they are, assuming they were in the right position to start with, which is another source of error). I do the latter as well as slightly moving my bridge hand until the cue and the balls look correctly aligned. That way, my elbow and grip hand are held in a constant and repetitive fashion and the cue is always in contact with the chest to function as a guide.

so you start rotating the shoulders/move the bridge slightly to the correct aim line as soon as the bridge touches the table and you realize that you are aiming a bit off?i was doing a similar thing yesterday and it can be very effective
 
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z0nt0n3r

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
i think that the 'do all your aiming while standing' advice can be dangerous,at least it was for me because for years i was trying to find the right stance/pre-shot routine that would align me perfectly almost everytime to the shot line when in reality,it isn't possible,at least for me no matter how many hours i practice.the advice should be 'do most of your aiming while standing',because many players need to do slight bridge/backhand adjustments when down on the shot.but when you get down and you feel you're aiming way off i think you should get back up and start the process again,maybe the bridge adjustment is only effective when the aiming is very slightly off.
 
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deraltefritz

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
so you start rotating the shoulders/move the bridge slightly to the correct aim line as soon as the bridge touches the table and you realize that you are aiming a bit off?i was doing a similar thing yesterday and it can be very effective

Not exactly, but quite. While getting down into the stance, I focus on keeping my head over the line at all times. That's all I pay attention to, and sort of let my body and cue fall into place instinctively. If at any point I feel that my head isn't in the right place, I don't move it, I get up and start all over again. That doesn't happen too often though, maybe once in 20 shots. I only look at the cue ball and the object ball, are they lined up correctly?

Then, when down and sure that my head is in the right place, I integrate attention to the cue as well. And that's when I slightly move my bridge and/or grip hand(s) if necessary. How I do that physically I haven't really disassembled. It probably involves both shoulders and hips, as the cue is in constant contact with my chest. It should be noted that these adjustments are very very small.
 
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Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
i think that the 'do all your aiming while standing' advice can be dangerous,at least it was for me because for years i was trying to find the right stance/pre-shot routine that would align me perfectly almost everytime to the shot line when in reality,it isn't possible,at least for me no matter how many hours i practice.the advice should be 'do most of your aiming while standing',because many players need to do slight bridge/backhand adjustments when down on the shot.but when you get down and you feel you're aiming way off i think you should get back up and start the process again,maybe the bridge adjustment is only effective when the aiming is very slightly off.

Another way to get aligned is to align the cue first then arrange the body to cue down the target line. This instructor coached the woman who recently shot a snooker 147. Foreign dialogue warning.

https://youtu.be/93xsb5zTaYs
https://youtu.be/uE4mKqUeYc8
https://youtu.be/9IhVTwEcvGw
https://youtu.be/aSzf5IIH-qo

Regardless of how you get there, the line needs to be primary. I’ve seen a snooker coach use rests to prop up a cue on the shot line. Once he aligned a straight in from one end he checked the cue line from the pocket end. Then with help, the rests were removed so he could cue down a known accurate aim line. If the cue is on line then what remains is the cueing action. This helps tell you where you are. It’s hard to arrive at a destination without knowing a starting point.

Shoot cue balls straight into pockets. Try to end with the cue pointing there after the ball is pocketed. Take away the psychological effect of the object ball. This is a good warm up. Lining up then closing your eyes before shooting is a good transition. Hold the finish and open the eyes. Is it still on target. I have used this as a coping strategy when I'm not in stroke. It forces me to trust both aim and cueing.

Regardless of method, line up then lower the cue straight down on the table on the line you chose. Get up and look at the shot from both ends. How was your alignment? Get back from the cue and see if it looks aligned from a distance. Check from the object ball side to see if it appears to aimed correctly.

I no longer grip my cue with a wrap around. My forefinger is triggered when I hold the cue pointed away from my cueing side. My thumb and forefinger only squeeze the cue from the sides. If in the process of shooting I happen to tighten my grip, equal pressure from both sides will not twist the cue off line. The elbow hinge sends the cue down the line.

Take a backswing, stop then lower the cue onto the table. Is it still aligned? Find out where you are at each stage of the shot. Fix things one at a time, if you need to. Multiple problems are harder to diagnose and fix. You need to trust your body. If it’s sensing a need to twist the cue to get an outcome, something’s wrong. Don’t diagnose. Get up and start over. Shoot when you don’t sense a need to compensate or adjust.

That felt need to add a hand action is a calibration tool. It’s feedback. It predicts. It’s saying that how you’re aligned WON’T WORK without modification. Sense how it would adjust to try to get a better outcome. Use that information when you get up to re-align or decide on a different shot.
 

Scott Lee

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
You can have the greatest, most accurate alignment in the world, but if you can't hit the CB accurately, nothing else matters. Get some stroke training from a professional instructor who uses video analysis. :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
 

z0nt0n3r

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You can have the greatest, most accurate alignment in the world, but if you can't hit the CB accurately, nothing else matters. Get some stroke training from a professional instructor who uses video analysis. :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

in my opinion aiming is more important,when you start aiming correctly your stroke starts straightening out automatically unless you have an extreme chicken wing or a severe elbow drop that you cannot control..at least that's my experience.
also this video explains it:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95etYD9N4yQ
 

greyghost

Coast to Coast
Silver Member
in my opinion aiming is more important,when you start aiming correctly your stroke starts straightening out automatically unless you have an extreme chicken wing or a severe elbow drop that you cannot control..at least that's my experience.

also this video explains it:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95etYD9N4yQ



Alignment is the beginning and most important part of the aiming process.

If your alignment is bad then you will STEER the cue. End of story


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

greyghost

Coast to Coast
Silver Member
Alignment is the beginning and most important part of the aiming process.

If your alignment is bad then you will STEER the cue. End of story


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro



This does not negate what Scott mentioned a few posts behind me


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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
in my opinion aiming is more important,when you start aiming correctly your stroke starts straightening out automatically
How do you learn to aim correctly if your stroke doesn't deliver the CB where you think it's aimed? It's like having a gun that doesn't shoot straight.

pj
chgo
 

z0nt0n3r

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How do you learn to aim correctly if your stroke doesn't deliver the CB where you think it's aimed? It's like having a gun that doesn't shoot straight.

pj
chgo
in my experience if you have your elbow and shoulders aligned and aim exactly on the intended line the body naturally delivers the cue straight unless you do these 2 things i mentioned or something really funny with your stroke like suddenly jumping up. or tightening the grip
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How do you learn to aim correctly if your stroke doesn't deliver the CB where you think it's aimed? It's like having a gun that doesn't shoot straight.

pj
chgo

I think we can all agree that first you have to point yourself in the right direction. If your alignment is off, you'll be training yourself to compensate with your stroke.

A good alignment doesn't guarantee that you'll stroke straight, but it's the first step in the right direction (pardon the pun).
 
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