stroking straight question

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
no,in my case i was seeing the cue slightly angled on most shots but because i couldn't find what was causing it
Have you tried any of the ways of finding your "vision center" described by Dr. Dave on the site I linked? At least one of them is specifically designed to fix your problem.

pj
chgo
 

Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Organizing key fundamentals sequentially

"one can have the cue under his correct vision center when down on the shot but the cue placed slightly across the line of the shot and not on it.now the correct head alignment in relation to the shot line when the player is getting down on the shot from the standing position"

The part where you say the cue can be placed across the line then the head alignment is over the shot line is revealing. You also say you are seeing the cue angled in another post.

These are descriptions of your experience. Your body is telling you what’s happening. In order to replicate your experience I have to align my arm and cue first then as I get down the cue goes to my center ball perception as I approach the shot. The tip goes to center ball, the head is over the shot line but the cue is perceptually slightly angled.

The description is telling. You are organizing your shot initially around the putting of the arm and cue in a single plane. It needs to be. Center ball is next. Head/vision center over the shot line is next. Alignment is off - angled cue?

The organization needs to start with the shot line first. Align the cue to the line next. This is done from well back from the table moving the cue onto the line as you step forward. Buddy Hall said to put the cue tip down about where you would place your bridge while standing. A hanging cueing arm should be over the cue. This aligns the arm and cue to the shot line. To sense the alignment the head must have been over and down the line all the way from distance. There should be no perception of an angled cue in this standing position. If there is and the cue is over the shot line then reposition your head and make sure the shot line, the cue and head are all aligned before getting down.

Everything else, the bridge hand side, upper body, and bridge hand move to the shot line cue and everything else moves forward and over into the shot. Maintaining the perception of the cue being straight ahead, not angled is key for you, based on your description.

The shot line as the organizing principle is the main insight. As each element, the vision, the cue etc. is added, it moves to the line. Once there, everything else moves to the line. A vertical arm, the bridge all end up there. The vision center should also confirm that point of view.

Your fundamentals and mindset are right. It’s the choreography of the steps that turns it into the dance of the balls. Hope this helps.
 
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z0nt0n3r

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"one can have the cue under his correct vision center when down on the shot but the cue placed slightly across the line of the shot and not on it.now the correct head alignment in relation to the shot line when the player is getting down on the shot from the standing position"

The part where you say the cue can be placed across the line then the head alignment is over the shot line is revealing. You also say you are seeing the cue angled in another post.

These are descriptions of your experience. Your body is telling you what’s happening. In order to replicate your experience I have to align my arm and cue first then as I get down the cue goes to my center ball perception as I approach the shot. The tip goes to center ball, the head is over the shot line but the cue is perceptually slightly angled.

The description is telling. You are organizing your shot initially around the putting of the arm and cue in a single plane. It needs to be. Center ball is next. Head/vision center over the shot line is next. Alignment is off - angled cue?

The organization needs to start with the shot line first. Align the cue to the line next. This is done from well back from the table moving the cue onto the line as you step forward. Buddy Hall said to put the cue tip down about where you would place your bridge while standing. A hanging cueing arm should be over the cue. This aligns the arm and cue to the shot line. To sense the alignment the head must have been over and down the line all the way from distance. There should be no perception of an angled cue in this standing position. If there is and the cue is over the shot line then reposition your head and make sure the shot line, the cue and head are all aligned before getting down.

Everything else, the bridge hand side, upper body, and bridge hand move to the shot line cue and everything else moves forward and over into the shot. Maintaining the perception of the cue being straight ahead, not angled is key for you, based on your description.

The shot line as the organizing principle is the main insight. As each element, the vision, the cue etc. is added, it moves to the line. Once there, everything else moves to the line. A vertical arm, the bridge all end up there. The vision center should also confirm that point of view.

Your fundamentals and mindset are right. It’s the choreography of the steps that turns it into the dance of the balls. Hope this helps.

so in your opinion i should focus on keeping the cue on the line while standing and ditch the slight bridge/backhand adjustments when down on the shot?is it even possible to always land on the line perfectly without these small adjustments?

here are 2 videos of me shooting straight-in shots.this is before i started to twist the hips more and my shoulders were a bit square to the shot so i had a slight chicken wing.even though the cue seems to be moving relatively straight,i have a small twist in the stroke to get the cue on the correct line because the cue is slightly angled from the correct line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1kSrFRhFpU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tw6mEpIYyXw
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
...this is before i started to twist the hips more and my shoulders were a bit square to the shot so i had a slight chicken wing.even though the cue seems to be moving relatively straight,i have a small twist in the stroke to get the cue on the correct line because the cue is slightly angled from the correct line.
I think you're on the right track by working with your stance to find the body position most conducive to the stroke alignment you want. In order to get all the key checkpoints (grip hand, elbow, back shoulder, head, bridge) comfortably and reliably in the "shot plane", some stance engineering is often needed.

For me the keys were getting my hips out of the way, rotating and raising my back shoulder a little to get the stick in the right position under my eyes, and finding the elbow position most conducive to a grooved stroke on that line. Lots of tinkering.

pj
chgo
 

z0nt0n3r

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think you're on the right track by working with your stance to find the body position most conducive to the stroke alignment you want. In order to get all the key checkpoints (grip hand, elbow, back shoulder, head, bridge) comfortably and reliably in the "shot plane", some stance engineering is often needed.

For me the keys were getting my hips out of the way, rotating and raising my back shoulder a little to get the stick in the right position under my eyes, and finding the elbow position most conducive to a grooved stroke on that line. Lots of tinkering.

pj
chgo
yes i have done similar things too to find the ideal body position.btw,
can you view the videos in the above links or is it not available?
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
yes i have done similar things too to find the ideal body position.btw,
can you view the videos in the above links or is it not available?
Viewed them just now. I'm no stroke expert, but I didn't notice any glaring stroke problems.

What I did notice is that it looks like on both shots you lined up with your tip a little right of center on the CB (from your view), causing the CB to squirt a little to your left.

pj
chgo
 

KenRobbins

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
no i don't think they are.one can have the cue under his correct vision center when down on the shot but the cue placed slightly across the line of the shot and not on it.now the correct head alignment in relation to the shot line when the player is getting down on the shot from the standing position does increase the chances of placing the cue on the correct line but i think it's mostly has to do with the visual perception of the player and some players will struggle even if their vision center alignment is correct from the standing position all the way when down on the shot.like i said i think to some degree either a player has this skill or he doesn't.

The shot line is the shot line and remains that way until the balls are moved. Your either on that line or not, obviously not and you already know this.

Try taking some yard string or something similar that won't damage the table to create the shot line between the rail to cue ball and cue ball to object ball. Creating a visual that you can physically see as your stepping into the shot. I've never done this, but has helped some others.
Stand back, view the shot line, step into the shot/shot line and get down on that line with your tip just barely touching the cue ball. Don't shoot the ball, stand up and repeat. Repetitions.

You want to find that stance/alignment that gets you on that line and drill that into your subconscious afterwards. If you simply can't get on that line, I'd seek instruction from a reputable stroke instructor at this point. The more knowledge, the better. Good luck

One thing that I always liked to do, is put a spot of some kind/marker in the center of the corner pocket. I always used a pocket reducer, the center of the rolled wire is perfectly centered in the pocket. After striking the cue ball, I'm visualizing my tip following/blasting through the cue ball, object ball and center pocket.
 

z0nt0n3r

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Viewed them just now. I'm no stroke expert, but I didn't notice any glaring stroke problems.

What I did notice is that it looks like on both shots you lined up with your tip a little right of center on the CB (from your view), causing the CB to squirt a little to your left.

pj
chgo

yes like i said sometimes i line up a hair to the right or left of where i intend to hit and some other times with the cue angled.but at least i'm slowly fixing the problem
 

z0nt0n3r

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The shot line is the shot line and remains that way until the balls are moved. Your either on that line or not, obviously not and you already know this.

Try taking some yard string or something similar that won't damage the table to create the shot line between the rail to cue ball and cue ball to object ball. Creating a visual that you can physically see as your stepping into the shot. I've never done this, but has helped some others.
Stand back, view the shot line, step into the shot/shot line and get down on that line with your tip just barely touching the cue ball. Don't shoot the ball, stand up and repeat. Repetitions.

You want to find that stance/alignment that gets you on that line and drill that into your subconscious afterwards. If you simply can't get on that line, I'd seek instruction from a reputable stroke instructor at this point. The more knowledge, the better. Good luck

One thing that I always liked to do, is put a spot of some kind/marker in the center of the corner pocket. I always used a pocket reducer, the center of the rolled wire is perfectly centered in the pocket. After striking the cue ball, I'm visualizing my tip following/blasting through the cue ball, object ball and center pocket.
thanks,good idea to try out.
 

Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Your videos show you trying to pocket a straight shot.

In golf there is a concept called "ball bound."

The theory was that golfers simply have to swing the club through impact on line. Once the head is on the path the next step was simply to put a ball on the target line and forget about it. In theory the player simply repeats the original clubhead trajectory and the ball gets in the way traveling as intended.

Theory is one thing but reality is another. Using wearable brain scan sensors they found that with players of all skill levels, that once the ball is put down the brain senses the difference and it shows in the scans.

Too often in pool, players get ball bound in a different way. They become fixated on the cue ball and its center. Not only is it in their immediate line of sight, but it appears large there. That fixation comes at a cost. It raises its importance and when our focus falls on it, other relevant details are missed. The face of the ball and it’s center cause our mindset to become "bound" to the ball face.

In response to this knowledge a simple strategy with multiple uses was found. Once the cue line is set from the hand, through the cue ball centerline, to the object, you should be able to look anywhere. By choosing to focus on impact a new perspective emerges. The front of the ball, not the face is what makes contact with the object ball center. Following the cue line through the cue ball we can sense where the target line exits the front of the cue ball. That point of exit is the actual surface point that must contact the object ball center, on a straight shot, to pocket the ball.

Several things are observed when using that visual when shooting. There becomes a felt connection between the contact points. The cue never stops on contact with the face when focus is on the front, so there is natural through the ball tip travel.

The biggest benefit to me has been that since the face of the ball is often obstructed by the rail or other balls, the front of the ball is not. Once you get comfortable with straight in shots focusing on the front rather than the face, the front becomes a secondary way to sense shots. If the cueing line through center ball is sensed as allowing the contact points to connect and send the object ball to target, the "second opinion" raises your comfort and confidence in the chosen cue line. Certainty of outcome is huge. When you feel it, results will be there, too.

The face of the ball is not there when the cue ball is on the rail. The front of the ball is still available and once you get used to using it the rail shots are much easier.
 
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One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Your videos show you trying to pocket a straight shot.

In golf there is a concept called "ball bound."

The theory was that golfers simply have to swing the club through impact on line. Once the head is on the path the next step was simply to put a ball on the target line and forget about it. In theory the player simply repeats the original clubhead trajectory and the ball gets in the way traveling as intended.

Theory is one thing but reality is another. Using wearable brain scan sensors they found that with players of all skill levels, that once the ball is put down the brain senses the difference and it shows in the scans.

Too often in pool, players get ball bound in a different way. They become fixated on the cue ball and its center. Not only is it in their immediate line of sight, but it appears large there. That fixation comes at a cost. It raises its importance and when our focus falls on it, other relevant details are missed. The face of the ball and it’s center cause our mindset to become "bound" to the ball face.

In response to this knowledge a simple strategy with multiple uses was found. Once the cue line is set from the hand, through the cue ball centerline, to the object, you should be able to look anywhere. By choosing to focus on impact a new perspective emerges. The front of the ball, not the face is what makes contact with the object ball center. Following the cue line through the cue ball we can sense where the target line exits the front of the cue ball. That point of exit is the actual surface point that must contact the object ball center, on a straight shot, to pocket the ball.

Several things are observed when using that visual when shooting. There becomes a felt connection between the contact points. The cue never stops on contact with the face when focus is on the front, so there is natural through the ball tip travel.

The biggest benefit to me has been that since the face of the ball is often obstructed by the rail or other balls, the front of the ball is not. Once you get comfortable with straight in shots focusing on the front rather than the face, the front becomes a secondary way to sense shots. If the cueing line through center ball is sensed as allowing the contact points to connect and send the object ball to target, the "second opinion" raises your comfort and confidence in the chosen cue line. Certainty of outcome is huge. When you feel it, results will be there, too.

The face of the ball is not there when the cue ball is on the rail. The front of the ball is still available and once you get used to using it the rail shots are much easier.

Nice post. Thanks

John
 

z0nt0n3r

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
hi everyone i believe this time i found the root of the problem,i know i have gone back and forth and changed my mind on what the majority of my problem is but this time i had another player watch me carefully on straight in shots and the up and down drill and he spotted a flaw.he said that i was lining up the shot with a hair of right english,when i intended to hit center ball,in other words what looked to me center ball,was a trace of right english.and also as i mentioned in earlier posts,the other problem is that the cue is placed slightly across the line of aim (the cue pointing slightly to the left of the aim line from my point of view).having watched joe tucker's videos on youtube about alignment,i think the solution is to train the eyes to start aiming with what looks like the wrong picture/aim because often what looks to me the correct picture,is wrong.
 
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z0nt0n3r

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
this is similar to dan white's alignment problem,what looked like the correct picture to him,was wrong.also the user luhta has a similar problem
 
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Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... i think the solution is to train the eyes to start aiming with what looks like the wrong picture/aim because often what looks to me the correct picture,is wrong.
The usual recommended solution is to find a stance that places your head where a straight, centered shot looks straight and centered. Have you considered that solution?
 

z0nt0n3r

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The usual recommended solution is to find a stance that places your head where a straight, centered shot looks straight and centered. Have you considered that solution?
i will re-try a bunch of different head positions to see if something works..
 
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