SVB and Dennis score.

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
I think Shane was supposed to have a big 9b match with Filler. Not for covid, it would've went down. I wonder if he will be apprehensive to take on Filler now. Filler plays stronger than Dennis!

Congratulations to Dennis. I didn't see this coming. Well played!

The Shane lovers are already making excuses for him, but he'll tell you he lost because he wasn't good enough and, as we saw a few years back in his TAR matches with Alex Pagulayan, if Shane has to grind against a player with far better after the break skills than himself, even long races are plenty losable. In my opinion, Orcullo's after the break skills are only a shade below those of Alex at his best.

Shane is a living legend, one of pool's all time greats, but the signs have been there in recent years that Shane is no longer at the top and the evidence is strong. I believe that the seven toughest titles to win these days in our sport are a) US Open 9-ball, b) China Open 9-ball, c) All-Japan Championships 9-ball, d) WPA World 9-ball, e) World Pool Masters 9-ball, f) Derby City Classic 9-ball, g) International 9-ball. Shane hasn't won any of them in 2017, 2018, 2019, or 2020. You have to go back to the 2016 DCC Nine Ball to find his last win in any of them. With his break, we all understand that Shane has a chance to beat any player in the world, but when he's not dominating with the break, he's vulnerable. Last year, Jayson Shaw narrowly lost 100-91. Also last year, JL Chang blew Shane out of the water in their race to 50 in Texas. Despite a 50-43 final score, Chang had led 25-11 and went into cruise control after that.

Yes, Filler is much, much stronger. Filler carved Dennis into little pieces in the action room at the 2019 International. Filler has also won 19 of the last 22 racks of nine ball he has played against Shane (5-1 and 5-0 at the 2019 Mosconi an 9-2 at 2020 Derby City). Filler is also the only player that I know of that beat JL Chang in big action in 10-ball (winning 17-14 in the action room at the 2019 Derby City Classic).

Shane is still top three in our sport. My top 10 in the world right now are: 1A) JL Chang, 1B) Filler, 3) SVB, 4) Wu Jiaqing, 5) Shaw, 6) Orcullo, 7) Zheng, 8) Raga, 9) Ko Ping Chung, 10) Ouschan. I'm picking Shane whenever he plays the last seven of these guys, but Chang and Filler play at a higher level than Shane and have for a while. On his best breaking day, he can top both Filler and Chang, even in a very long race, but their average day is better than his.

Perhaps one day Shane will start winning the big events again, but until he does, comparisons with the top two are time wasted. He just hasn't been beating the most elite in the biggest spots for years now.
 

mikeyfrost

Socially Aware
Silver Member
Whats the betting line for a rematch going to be? It was a very narrow line to begin with. Some people layed around 6 to 8 games with SVB as the favorite. If they play again I wonder will people flip the line.
 

TATE

AzB Gold Mensch
Gold Member
Silver Member
I have not seen a more graphic exercise of the effects of momentum and grinding in a long race of 9 ball.
 
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Island Drive

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
#3 Dennis was chemically enhanced on day 3, yes I said it and I'm going to stand behind it, this isn't some poor sportsmanship cry or whine, it's very prevalent in the pool word and no matter what people that haven't experienced this type of play disregard it, it just flat out makes you zone in and play better, much better. I've done it lots when I was younger and I dont blame him a bit, it's just not something you see this day and age from the very top players, or you can notice so clearly like you could with Dennis on Day 3.


I'd like proof before anyone Slams a great player with this viewpoint.

With you having this ''feel'' for the moment, I also have a ''feel'' about You, because of Your above po$t....$tatement from a players per$pective.

Poor lo$er....

I can just as easily be wrong about you as you are about your.............#3 STATEMENT.
 

justnum

TesticularCancer Survivor
Silver Member
Dennis was scouting SVB for first two days, playing filipino style.

Then Dennis let SVB know how robotic SVB choices are on the table.

Dennis strangled SVB with multiple forced errors in a row.

Day 3 last 20 rocks to 120 is where Dennis exposes SVB

there is so much footage players can out play SVB choices faster than SVB can make them
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
#3 Dennis was chemically enhanced on day 3, yes I said it and I'm going to stand behind it, this isn't some poor sportsmanship cry or whine, it's very prevalent in the pool word and no matter what people that haven't experienced this type of play disregard it, it just flat out makes you zone in and play better, much better.

As you've said that you yourself used chemical enhancements to help your pool game, I'm going to rely on your assessment here, but ....

... please show me in the rules governing impromptu action matches where it says that chemical enhancements are forbidden, or even unethical. Every player has the option to use such chemical enhancements when they play in action, and that includes both Dennis and Shane. Similarly, every player has the option to make drug testing a condition of an action match in which the winner's failing the test relieves the loser of the obligation to pay the bet. Thankfully, nobody really wants it that way.

Like you, I think it's regrettable that so many players of this generation need such chemical enhancement, but it is being dealt with in WPA sanctioned events in our sport, one of many reasons that WPA titles are the gold standard in our sport.

Even if you are right here, Dennis won fair and square here and his victory is commendable. This is in no way an extenuating circumstance.
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Interesting to see it doesn't just happen to us bangers, but can happen to the best in the world as well. When you start losing it late in a match that you have a huge lead due to missing a few easy shots, it can all fall apart very quickly.

You still have to hand it to Dennis for his flawless play during this final stretch. He was obviously feeling no pressure during his comeback, as no one was expecting him to win at this point. You don't win 21 of 23 games late in the match against Shane unless you are playing some great runout pool, but he did get a little help from Shane during this stretch.

Then, after Shane recovered winning 5 of 6 to get on the hill first, Dennis was successfully able to deal with the pressure himself and close Shane out by running out the set after Shane scratched on the break at 119-118.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
A lot of conclusions, many of which are incorrect, are being made on here about a match that went Hill-Hill! If Dennis scratches on the eight ball in the last game would everyone be writing about his demise now?

What this match tells me is how evenly matched these two players are. Yes, Shane got a little weak at the end. It can happen in a very long match. I attribute that more to Dennis' conditioning, having stayed in constant action for a couple of months preceding the match. Meanwhile Shane hadn't been playing at all. If you don't think that was a factor then you don't know Pool! Playing every day keeps your game sharp, while not playing at all will make you stale.

Dennis caught Shane at the right time to score what could be called a mild upset. IMO a well conditioned Shane is still the favorite if they play again. Just like in boxing and other sports, CONDITIONING is a huge factor in who ultimately wins. Remember when a well conditioned Buster Douglas beat an out of shape Mike Tyson!

One more thing. Dennis does NOT use drugs! He plays on the "natch" and is quite used to playing long matches that last all day and night. THAT is the Filipino way! :)
 

westcoast

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
As you've said that you yourself used chemical enhancements to help your pool game, I'm going to rely on your assessment here, but ....

... please show me in the rules governing impromptu action matches where it says that chemical enhancements are forbidden, or even unethical. Every player has the option to use such chemical enhancements when they play in action, and that includes both Dennis and Shane. Similarly, every player has the option to make drug testing a condition of an action match in which the winner's failing the test relieves the loser of the obligation to pay the bet. Thankfully, nobody really wants it that way.

Like you, I think it's regrettable that so many players of this generation need such chemical enhancement, but it is being dealt with in WPA sanctioned events in our sport, one of many reasons that WPA titles are the gold standard in our sport.

Even if you are right here, Dennis won fair and square here and his victory is commendable. This is in no way an extenuating circumstance.

Also, how do we really know if Dennis was on anything? Yes, he was quite hyper- literally running around the table. However, that also could have been because he was so excited to be back in the match after he looked dead in the water.
 

justnum

TesticularCancer Survivor
Silver Member
Also, how do we really know if Dennis was on anything? Yes, he was quite hyper- literally running around the table. However, that also could have been because he was so excited to be back in the match after he looked dead in the water.

Filipinos know how to play possum to.

Dennis was so obviously underplaying with his choice of hat and sneakers on day 1 and day 2.

The bigger question is what happen to SVB hero moment shotmaking.

SVB day 3 was not a good lead by example in front of Team USA.

Billy and Sky were on the mic in disbelief, that the great SVB would give up a 30 game lead over two days.
 

westcoast

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Filipinos know how to play possum to.

Dennis was so obviously underplaying with his choice of hat and sneakers on day 1 and day 2.

The bigger question is what happen to SVB hero moment shotmaking.

SVB day 3 was not a good lead by example in front of Team USA.

Billy and Sky were on the mic in disbelief, that the great SVB would give up a 30 game lead over two days.

Sky was so drunk he probably won't even remember witnessing the collapse! :grin:
 

Island Drive

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A lot of conclusions, many of which are incorrect, are being made on here about a match that went Hill-Hill! If Dennis scratches on the eight ball in the last game would everyone be writing about his demise now?

What this match tells me is how evenly matched these two players are. Yes, Shane got a little weak at the end. It can happen in a very long match. I attribute that more to Dennis' conditioning, having stayed in constant action for a couple of months preceding the match. Meanwhile Shane hadn't been playing at all. If you don't think that was a factor then you don't know Pool! Playing every day keeps your game sharp, while not playing at all will make you stale.

Dennis caught Shane at the right time to score what could be called a mild upset. IMO a well conditioned Shane is still the favorite if they play again. Just like in boxing and other sports, CONDITIONING is a huge factor in who ultimately wins. Remember when a well conditioned Buster Douglas beat an out of shape Mike Tyson!

One more thing. Dennis does NOT use drugs! He plays on the "natch" and is quite used to playing long matches that last all day and night. THAT is the Filipino way! :)

Thx Jay that's exactly what I thought. Tyson Example....perfect.

If anyone knows about conditioning/sports and pool it's myself.

And the timing like you said, with someone fishing and another not, is HUGE.

Especially in sports at the high end.

Been working out again, was hoping the US Open 9 ball would be this year, I was hoping to go 2-2. Love seeing the young men squirming in their seats. :)

Oh well, guess all that might occur is becoming, ''oldest highest finisher in 2022. :)
 

maha

from way back when
Silver Member
of course it was so close you cant call a winner who is the best.

however as long as any game has one shot like the break that is the dominating factor in winning the game you really will never have the best true players winning as they should.
 

Island Drive

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
of course it was so close you cant call a winner who is the best.

however as long as any game has one shot like the break that is the dominating factor in winning the game you really will never have the best true players winning as they should.

Why is that?

Jimmy Connors won the US Open but couldn't serve the ball worth a darn.
 

jasonlaus

Rep for Smorg
Gold Member
Silver Member
Filipinos know how to play possum to.

Dennis was so obviously underplaying with his choice of hat and sneakers on day 1 and day 2.

The bigger question is what happen to SVB hero moment shotmaking.

SVB day 3 was not a good lead by example in front of Team USA.

Billy and Sky were on the mic in disbelief, that the great SVB would give up a 30 game lead over two days.

Its hard to believe 90% of you have ever watched or played a game of pool in your lives.
 

spartan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Final rack of Match of the Decade. That 8 ball draw is shocking
https://www.facebook.com/RoysBasement/videos/1288491308196553/
Dennis Shane fist pump shake and Dennis celebrations
https://youtu.be/QB549CK4Esc?t=258

#3 Dennis was chemically enhanced on day 3, yes I said it and I'm going to stand behind it, this isn't some poor sportsmanship cry or whine, it's very prevalent in the pool word and no matter what people that haven't experienced this type of play disregard it, it just flat out makes you zone in and play better, much better. I've done it lots when I was younger and I dont blame him a bit, it's just not something you see this day and age from the very top players, or you can notice so clearly like you could with Dennis on Day 3.
Not sure what you are smoking but Dennis has always been hyper energizer bunny for some time :D https://youtu.be/Vv1aUFAZDwE?t=2839

Congratulations to Dennis. I didn't see this coming. Well played!

The Shane lovers are already making excuses for him, but he'll tell you he lost because he wasn't good enough and, as we saw a few years back in his TAR matches with Alex Pagulayan, if Shane has to grind against a player with far better after the break skills than himself, even long races are plenty losable. In my opinion, Orcullo's after the break skills are only a shade below those of Alex at his best.

Shane is a living legend, one of pool's all time greats, but the signs have been there in recent years that Shane is no longer at the top and the evidence is strong. I believe that the seven toughest titles to win these days in our sport are a) US Open 9-ball, b) China Open 9-ball, c) All-Japan Championships 9-ball, d) WPA World 9-ball, e) World Pool Masters 9-ball, f) Derby City Classic 9-ball, g) International 9-ball. Shane hasn't won any of them in 2017, 2018, 2019, or 2020. You have to go back to the 2016 DCC Nine Ball to find his last win in any of them. With his break, we all understand that Shane has a chance to beat any player in the world, but when he's not dominating with the break, he's vulnerable. Last year, Jayson Shaw narrowly lost 100-91. Also last year, JL Chang blew Shane out of the water in their race to 50 in Texas. Despite a 50-43 final score, Chang had led 25-11 and went into cruise control after that.

Yes, Filler is much, much stronger. Filler carved Dennis into little pieces in the action room at the 2019 International. Filler has also won 19 of the last 22 racks of nine ball he has played against Shane (5-1 and 5-0 at the 2019 Mosconi an 9-2 at 2020 Derby City). Filler is also the only player that I know of that beat JL Chang in big action in 10-ball (winning 17-14 in the action room at the 2019 Derby City Classic).

Shane is still top three in our sport. My top 10 in the world right now are: 1A) JL Chang, 1B) Filler, 3) SVB, 4) Wu Jiaqing, 5) Shaw, 6) Orcullo, 7) Zheng, 8) Raga, 9) Ko Ping Chung, 10) Ouschan. I'm picking Shane whenever he plays the last seven of these guys, but Chang and Filler play at a higher level than Shane and have for a while. On his best breaking day, he can top both Filler and Chang, even in a very long race, but their average day is better than his.

Perhaps one day Shane will start winning the big events again, but until he does, comparisons with the top two are time wasted. He just hasn't been beating the most elite in the biggest spots for years now.
Great balanced post. Sums up current state of play.
If they play again I wonder will people flip the line.
Congrats to Dennis for winning and an incredible gutsy comeback
But folks are reading too much into this. Reality is this is rare rare result like a black swan result. Has there been hill hill match in such long races? Has leader by more than 10 racks on 2nd last day lost before? Answer is almost none. If we assume biggest winning margin between them anytime they play is 40, chances of hill hill in race to 120 is extremely small around 1% .
This was really an even match that could have gone either way.
Day 1 Few racks separate them
Day 2 Shane blew Dennis away
Day 3 Dennis blew Shane away

As a rule of thumb winning margin of less than 5% is trivial so in race to 120, a win by less than 5 or 6 racks is as good as a draw/tie and deserves automatic rematch.
If they play again, Shane is still slight favorite over Dennis. On other hand if Dennis had won by 10 or more, the line might move slightly in rematch

:D
 

gxman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Nice to see Shane can still smile after that match.

We need more matches like this lined up to get pool exciting again.

Shaw
Filler
Kaci
Biado
Gorst
etc...
 
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