Well who's enforcing it? But yes I agree with you that opponents responsibility to check the rack.
Lets end it at that. An eye for eye and someone ends up blind.
SVB racking "shenanigans"
- Thread starter pacman
- Start date
Well who's enforcing it? But yes I agree with you that opponents responsibility to check the rack.
Lets end it at that. An eye for eye and someone ends up blind.
Also I see ur point in arguing my side. If I had looked up the rule about racking tight as possible then this would have never gotten this far. My research is poor. I should have waited for you to post the bca's rule for racking ten ball.I, like you, have no issue with you personally. What I do have an issue with is the words you have typed.
First you say its ok to exploit things. Then when challenged you say they aren't breaking rules. After a rule is pointed out to you, you say well, its ok to break the rules if no one is watching and enforcing......
So how many more excuses are you going to keep coming up with? If there are no cameras, no police, and the owner of a store isn't looking, should it be ok to steal a candy bar? No one is there enforcing the rules at the time......
Its pretty simple, rack the balls as tightly as possible. If someone observes you rolling a ball back to make a space, they let the TD know. When the TD sees it, you get a warning. They see it again, you lose the game or match.
Even if there isn't this type of oversight, at some point you have to let your integrity kick in......just because someone isn't watching doesn't make it ok.
So....what else is wrong with pool, when the fans/players take the opinion "well, even if its a rule, no one is watching, so its ok."
But you can keep arguing semantics if you want to, doesn't change the fact there is a rule against purposely putting spaces in the rack. Eve if there is no one checking, it doesn't change the fact its against the rules, and therefore cheating.
And I'm not attacking you personally when I say you haven't done your research. I'm merely pointing out an obvious fact. It took me about 3 minutes with a google search to find a simple rule stating you must rack the balls as tightly as possible. You have stated you know of no such rule against racking pretty much however you want. Thus, you obviously didn't do any research and just stated your opinion or what you've heard through the grapevine. Had you done the simple research before stating that there are no rules being broken, you wouldn't have even thought about typing that sentence or making such a statement. Again, nothing personal, just pointing it out.
Our dispute has been about me not looking up to see the rule. Like I said if there was a rule in place then yes he's wrong. But my poor research led me to believe that there wasn't a rule in affect. So I didn't see anything wrong with it. But yes there is.
I don't condone criminal acts as you suggest so I'm not ok with that. For the record. Please accept my pinky as a sign of I am wrong to engage Ina game with a lock smith:thumbup:
What would happen to any sport that didn't have Referees, Umpires, Officials, etc???
What would happen to any sport that didn't have Referees, Umpires, Officials, Line Judges, Poker Dealers, etc.? This is a "no brainer" imho
How would it change boxing, tennis, football, baseball, MMA, poker, etc?
My opinion, as a past and perhaps future promoter is it's my responsibility to make SURE there's a referee to oversee the Game. Just like if I was promoting a boxing match or a MMA fight, there's no difference that makes any sense.
It's purely a managerial issue for the promoter, it's not up to the players to do this job - it's the players job to perform to the best of their ability just like a boxer or tennis player.
Pool players even pay an entree fee to get into a tournament, what do they get for this? If you spend $100-500 in a restaurant you would at least expect to get a server, is it too much to ask for a referee for your match?
What would happen to any sport that didn't have Referees, Umpires, Officials, Line Judges, Poker Dealers, etc.? This is a "no brainer" imho
How would it change boxing, tennis, football, baseball, MMA, poker, etc?
My opinion, as a past and perhaps future promoter is it's my responsibility to make SURE there's a referee to oversee the Game. Just like if I was promoting a boxing match or a MMA fight, there's no difference that makes any sense.
It's purely a managerial issue for the promoter, it's not up to the players to do this job - it's the players job to perform to the best of their ability just like a boxer or tennis player.
Pool players even pay an entree fee to get into a tournament, what do they get for this? If you spend $100-500 in a restaurant you would at least expect to get a server, is it too much to ask for a referee for your match?
Pros win. It is their job.
If you knew how you too would be a pro. Ask a brick layer how to lay bricks. Good luck with that. Ask a mechanic how to fix a car. Pros racking themselves ? They are Pros is the answer.
Nick
If you knew how you too would be a pro. Ask a brick layer how to lay bricks. Good luck with that. Ask a mechanic how to fix a car. Pros racking themselves ? They are Pros is the answer.
Nick
If you knew how you too would be a pro. Ask a brick layer how to lay bricks. Good luck with that. Ask a mechanic how to fix a car. Pros racking themselves ? They are Pros is the answer.
Nick
Best thing I've read all morning!
I'm not sure what the rules say, but to my knowledge the balls in the rack are all supposed to be touching. If that's the case and a player is purposefully leaving spaces between balls to give themselves an advantage, that would be cheating.
e: Woah, I missed a few pages.
But pattern racking is NOT legal, every racking rule I have read, aside from the main balls in the rack (1,9,8 etc..), states "balls are placed in random order". Here is the old UPA tour rules, 2.1 http://www.upatour.com/official-billiard-rules/u-s-9-ball-rules/
BCA rules, 2.2 http://home.bca-pool.com/associations/7744/files/NineBall_January2008.pdf
The APA rules are a bit vague here, they say they can be placed in any numerical order, which does not preclude pattern racking, in fact, the way they word it, it's OK to do so because 1,2,3,4,5, etc... can be "any numerical order" and there is no rule that states it can't be the same each rack.
WPA rules http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/the_regulations#16 16. Rack at Nine Ball
As stated in Rule 2.2, balls other than the one and nine are placed randomly in the rack and should not be set in any particular order during any rack.
Unless a tournament states that "standard racking rules do not apply", they should be using the standard BCA or WPA rules for that.
This is turning into the old
"if a rule gets broken in the forest and nobody's around to see it, does it make a sound?"
Yes, it's breaking a specific black-and-white rule. "as tightly as possible" is not ambiguous.
When you rack for the opponent, is it ok to leave an intentional gap to help your chances of winning?
Of course not. So why would it be ok for your own racks?
No, it doesn't matter if someone's watching to catch you doing it.
Cheating to win doesn't suddenly become ok just because
the promoter failed to pay for or elect a referee.
A ref is no substitute for a moral compass. Anyone who lacks one has no business playing for money.
No, it doesn't matter if it takes some skill to cheat by exploiting a self-made gap.
I can spend years learning how to disable alarms,
but that doesn't mean you have to respect my decision to steal from you.
All that being said, there's no serious indication shane leaves a gap, intentional or not.
Yes, he has a high success rate making those balls. But he also has a high success rate
running out behind it. What's the secret trick for that?
"if a rule gets broken in the forest and nobody's around to see it, does it make a sound?"
Yes, it's breaking a specific black-and-white rule. "as tightly as possible" is not ambiguous.
When you rack for the opponent, is it ok to leave an intentional gap to help your chances of winning?
Of course not. So why would it be ok for your own racks?
No, it doesn't matter if someone's watching to catch you doing it.
Cheating to win doesn't suddenly become ok just because
the promoter failed to pay for or elect a referee.
A ref is no substitute for a moral compass. Anyone who lacks one has no business playing for money.
No, it doesn't matter if it takes some skill to cheat by exploiting a self-made gap.
I can spend years learning how to disable alarms,
but that doesn't mean you have to respect my decision to steal from you.
All that being said, there's no serious indication shane leaves a gap, intentional or not.
Yes, he has a high success rate making those balls. But he also has a high success rate
running out behind it. What's the secret trick for that?
The "secret trick" to running out?
The "secret trick" to running out? Hmmm, :groucho: practice...practice...practice
The "secret trick" to running out? Hmmm, :groucho: practice...practice...practice
neutral magic racker
The only way I know of to be as fair as possible is to have a neutral person do the racking with a Magic Rack and both players having the option to inspect the rack before the break. Sounds boring and would still not satisfy every one. I shot in a small 9 ball tournament last night and one of the guys break reminds me of SVB break. This guy kind of stands up when he hits it and really pots the balls, that is where the similarities end though. I will be chasing the perfect break down forever because in the big scheme of things I only have so many hours a week to shoot pool and if I ever got to the point of cheating to win I would be a sorry person. If SVB is "cheating" I think there are enough strong personalities amongst the pro players to call him on it and eventually prove it.
The only way I know of to be as fair as possible is to have a neutral person do the racking with a Magic Rack and both players having the option to inspect the rack before the break. Sounds boring and would still not satisfy every one. I shot in a small 9 ball tournament last night and one of the guys break reminds me of SVB break. This guy kind of stands up when he hits it and really pots the balls, that is where the similarities end though. I will be chasing the perfect break down forever because in the big scheme of things I only have so many hours a week to shoot pool and if I ever got to the point of cheating to win I would be a sorry person. If SVB is "cheating" I think there are enough strong personalities amongst the pro players to call him on it and eventually prove it.
That would be like calling the kettle black by most of the top pros in the USA. :grin:. Johnnyt
It must be true then.... Could it be - What the Hale ....
I think bowling has it right. The pins are set for you and you can demand a rerack once a match. Pool should consider the same.
First and foremost, though, rack your own is just not working in our sport.
If no neutral racker is available, mandatory pushout after the break keeps looking better and better to me as the only means of taking the racking debates out of the game.
First and foremost, though, rack your own is just not working in our sport.
If no neutral racker is available, mandatory pushout after the break keeps looking better and better to me as the only means of taking the racking debates out of the game.
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rtfb
I remember once in a tour. i ran Jeff Carter was playing Benny (THEGOOSE)Conway. Hill hill match i need the winner to move on in losers side. They are arguing about the rack. Benny wont break Jeff says there ok. Finally i have to intervene ,i end up racking after pleading with Jeff to rack . Problem solved 9-8 BENNY on the snap. Racking always been an issue, but calling the greatest player weve had in a long time a cheater is just sick.
I remember once in a tour. i ran Jeff Carter was playing Benny (THEGOOSE)Conway. Hill hill match i need the winner to move on in losers side. They are arguing about the rack. Benny wont break Jeff says there ok. Finally i have to intervene ,i end up racking after pleading with Jeff to rack . Problem solved 9-8 BENNY on the snap. Racking always been an issue, but calling the greatest player weve had in a long time a cheater is just sick.
Even inserting or using words like shenanigans or cheating in reference to Shane is harsh.
Many people here aren't even differentiating between a 10-ball rack and a 9-ball rack.
A Lot of myths and wives tales being perpetuated in this thread.
Get Joe Tuckers Racking Secrets.
Asking questions is good,and in this thread listening to Creedo is good also.
Many people here aren't even differentiating between a 10-ball rack and a 9-ball rack.
A Lot of myths and wives tales being perpetuated in this thread.
Get Joe Tuckers Racking Secrets.
Asking questions is good,and in this thread listening to Creedo is good also.
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i only inserted "shenanigans" because it seems everyone talks about shanes racking like hes performing voodoo on the balls. if he is doing something special i have absolutely no problem with it, in fact id like to know it.
UPA Rules
2.3 BALL TAPPING: Tapping or touching balls is not permitted once the rack is removed from the balls. The penalty for ball tapping/touching after the rack has been removed is a loss of break.
BCA Rules
3. After you rack the balls, your opponent may inspect the rack but must not touch any ball. If your opponent is not satisfied with the rack, they may require you to re-rack the balls one time. After one re-rack, if both players cannot agree that the rack is suitable for play a referee must be called. The referee will then rack the balls for that game.
Once again....racking template solves the problem....
2.3 BALL TAPPING: Tapping or touching balls is not permitted once the rack is removed from the balls. The penalty for ball tapping/touching after the rack has been removed is a loss of break.
BCA Rules
3. After you rack the balls, your opponent may inspect the rack but must not touch any ball. If your opponent is not satisfied with the rack, they may require you to re-rack the balls one time. After one re-rack, if both players cannot agree that the rack is suitable for play a referee must be called. The referee will then rack the balls for that game.
Once again....racking template solves the problem....
I know a dude who has a friend whose bro works at a gas station and svb put regular grade in a premium only rental.
He's vicious. a fukkin killer and he don 't give a fluk.
.................
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