Table Tougness.......

tucson9ball

tucson9ball

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I recently read Roger Longs' article about tight pockets. Here's a link http://www.azbilliards.com/rogerlong/roger2.php

Basically he has a formula to figure out how tough the pockets are on a table. Here's the formula...
OPENING X THROAT ÷ SHELF = RATING

Example:

5.00 in. X 4.25 in. ÷ 1.375 in. = 15.45 rating

Guide:

7 – 11 = Extra Tough (XT)

12 – 16 = Tough (T)

17 – 21 = Easy (E)

22 – 27 = Extra Easy (XE)


So.....I measured my table, a Diamond Pro, and the measurements I came up with were......Opening 4.5 x Throat 4.25 divided by Shelf 1.75 = 10.92

I guess that puts my table in the extra tough category. Before I measured I would have guessed it would be in the tough area, no wonder I can't break and run more than 2 balls. GEEZ...
 
tucson9ball said:
I recently read Roger Longs' article about tight pockets. Here's a link http://www.azbilliards.com/rogerlong/roger2.php

Basically he has a formula to figure out how tough the pockets are on a table. Here's the formula...
OPENING X THROAT ÷ SHELF = RATING

Example:

5.00 in. X 4.25 in. ÷ 1.375 in. = 15.45 rating

Guide:

7 – 11 = Extra Tough (XT)

12 – 16 = Tough (T)

17 – 21 = Easy (E)

22 – 27 = Extra Easy (XE)


So.....I measured my table, a Diamond Pro, and the measurements I came up with were......Opening 4.5 x Throat 4.25 divided by Shelf 1.75 = 10.92

I guess that puts my table in the extra tough category. Before I measured I would have guessed it would be in the tough area, no wonder I can't break and run more than 2 balls. GEEZ...
Click to expand...

I did the same measurements on my table quite some time ago and have since forgotten the Throat and Shelf dimensions (I know the corner pocket openings are 4.5")... and I know that I have Diamond's standard Pro Cut pockets on my 9' Pro Am... and it appears that you have the same pockets on your Pro, correct?

If so... I agree... our tables are challenging... on every shot. :thumbup2:
 
Yes I have the standard Pro Cut Pockets. I'm not sure if the shelf is deeper on a ProAm or not, maybe RKC can chime in.
 
I thinks it's a nice rule-of-thumb, but the formula is subject to error. For example, I think the shelf contributes more to toughness than a linear relationship (2" would not be twice as hard as 1" IMO...more like 4 times or something). Further, the formula does not account for geometery of the facings.

Using tuscon's example...what if we were to make the pockets straight cut? (opening = throat)

Opening 4.5 x Throat 4.25 divided by Shelf 1.75 = 10.92
Opening 4.5 x Throat 4.50 divided by Shelf 1.75 = 11.57

This HUGE change only results in a minor change to the result. I would venture that a straight cut pocket would result in a tremendously easier pocket...not just slightly softer.

I suppose we can assume the facings will have a fairly similar angle between tables, but we all know that is far from the truth...look no further than the valley barbox vs diamond barbox.

Also, a triple shimmed pocket will play tougher than a non-shimmed pocket even if they are exactly the same dimensions.
 
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I know there is more to this than the 3 measurements that Mr. Long is using. Cloth, rail rubber (bounce), humidity, and I believe RKC said that the downward angle of the rail ends (shim) makes a difference how tough a pocket plays. Maybe he will jump on here and add to the 3 measurement formular. Johnnyt
 
IMO , it's all about the angle cut on the rails.

Again , IMO , effects of opening and shelf size are minimal by comparison.
 
RRfireblade said:
IMO , it's all about the angle cut on the rails.

Again , IMO , effects of opening and shelf size are minimal by comparison.
Click to expand...


You know what? After thinking about it, you are correct sir, more food for thought.
New cloth can make a huge difference also. When my table was new, I could miss a long rail bank by 2 diamonds and it would straighten out and fall in. It was sick how they just skidded down the rail.
 
tucson9ball said:
You know what? After thinking about it, you are correct sir, more food for thought.
New cloth can make a huge difference also. When my table was new, I could miss a long rail bank by 2 diamonds and it would straighten out and fall in. It was sick how they just skidded down the rail.
Click to expand...

When I first put the Ridgeback rails and new cloth on my Valley the table played much tougher down the rail, but you could still cheat the pockets on cut shots pretty good. After a few weeks when the bed and rail cloth wore in a bit...forget about it. You better not shoot more than pocket speed if you are going to hit any part of the pocket. A ball an inch or so off the rail better not touch the rail before the pocket. The shelf remains stock. I don't know all that Glen changed on the rails, but I know they are a lot tougher than the standard Valley rails...a lot. With dirty balls and high humidity, you ain't running too many racks. I'd love to see some tournaments with the pros in open air or no A/C rooms in Miss, LA, or anywhere with high humidity. It would be funny to watch. Johnnyt
 
tucson9ball said:
You know what? After thinking about it, you are correct sir, more food for thought.
New cloth can make a huge difference also. When my table was new, I could miss a long rail bank by 2 diamonds and it would straighten out and fall in. It was sick how they just skidded down the rail.
Click to expand...

That's just my experience. There are alot of table techs out there but only a few that know how to shim and cut the rails correctly. That's pretty much how I judge them anyway.

I've played on tables with 5" pockets that you can't drop a ball at all unless you clear the facing entirely , even at pocket speed and other so called tight pocket tables with sub 4" pockets that you can fire into , just off the point of the rail facing and it drops every time without a rattle.

Pocket size don't scare me , the rails do. :)
 
Neil said:
Opening- 4 1/8"
Throat- 3 1/2"
Shelf- 1 1/2"
Rating- 9.625

This is my modified Valley bar box. Can be frustrating at times, but teaches one to really aim.
Click to expand...
Would like to have it for league.:) Sloppy dynamo's where we play don't get me ready for the diamonds in Vegas for BCA nationals.
 
How does the toughness of the table affect CTE? :shrug: :scratched: :poke: :rotflmao: :outtahere:
 
tucson9ball said:
Yes I have the standard Pro Cut Pockets. I'm not sure if the shelf is deeper on a ProAm or not, maybe RKC can chime in.
Click to expand...

They're both the same, and Roger had a nice idea, but it won't work. Reason being, I can take three identical tables with the same slate shelf and exact same pocket openings....and create three totally different tables as far as difficulty ratings go.
 
It is an interesting idea IMO to attempt to quantify table personalities mathematically, but as is being implied and/or expressed there are too many variables which have effect, e.g., speed of cloth, composition and age of cushions, et cetera.

I reckon if additional tools were employed such as a "cloth Stimpmeter", cushion rebound meter, etc., etc., etc. then ***perhaps*** a more consistent, tangible comparison can be made. But as far as myself is concerned- for now- all I can do is say "please set my table up like they are at Racks-a-Plenty Billiards"...

Just my opinion and nothing more.
 
Ok, here you go guys.

Table "1, 2, & 3" all have the extact same 4 1/2" pocket opening from point to point, exact same slate shelf, same miter angles in to the pockets, exact same down angles....OK?

Now, tbl 1 did have 5" corner pockets, but have been tripple shimmed to shrink down the pocket to 4 1/2" and the shims have been there for a few years....so they're rock hard. Because there's no rebound in the pockets the balls are going to all go in because the facings are not going to bobble the balls if they're hit bad.

Tbl 2 is a Diamond, it's going to play like normal, kind of hard when new, then a little harder when the cloth breaks in, but for sure harder than tbl 1 above.


Tbl 3 is an Olhausen, with very soft 1/8" pocket facings, and very soft Accufast cushions. Even though the pocket spec's are the same as the two above tables...because of the soft facings and cushions...the balls going in the pockets shot off the outer ends of the facings are going to get rejected because of the soft compression of the cushions which in turn changes the deflected angle of the balls, so that instead of going into the pocket...they're bounced across the pocket...and out.

Table 3 is the hardest of all of these tables to play on...even though according to Rogers spec's...would be the exact same as the tables above.

Ever hear of Diamond or GC rattle...nope, only Olhausen has the Olhausen rattle....for a very good reason;)

Glen
 
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