Thanks to AZB and the BCA

I read the press release and it wasn't clear to me how this money would be used. I didn't see anywhere that it specifically stated it would be used to help American players travel to overseas events. Maybe I'm missing something. I hope so. I for one would like to see our best players afforded the opportunity to compete world wide. That is one way they will improve their games by facing the best competition out there. It would be nice for say four to six players to receive maybe $2,500 in expense money to play in China or the Middle East. Now they could afford to go and give it their best shot. Currently we only have Shane representing us internationally on a regular basis. Let's give Dechaine and Oscar and maybe Jesse Engel or ? a chance to play in all the majors! We do have some talented young players, but they need help to follow the international circuit, which has the biggest and best tournaments.
 
I am so glad I got my Chinese-made flame retardent suit on today.

Because I have to go on record as saying while I think that the sentiment is nice the effort is misplaced severely.

Here is why in my opinion.

1. American Professional Pool is dysfunctional. Until we have a functioning and consistent professional tour in the United States we shouldn't care one bit about professional pool elsewhere in the world and whether or not any US passport holder can afford to attend them or not.

2. This is sponsorship light, it's more of a way for a group of companies to share in a feel-good sponsorship with little money really dedicated to it. (disclaimer: I have ZERO idea exactly how much is in the pot)

3. Who gets the money and why? Shane Van Boening works his ass off to attain the status to garner sponsorship which affords him the opportunity to play internationally where he has to then perform well enough to keep getting invites to those events and now we want to send players who don't work as hard as Shane does to compete against him? Where is the fairness in that? Or is Shane going to also get money from this pool for his travel as well? I assume that it will be handled based on ranking which means that Shane would be entitled to get whatever stipend is available to his rank so where does that provide any "help" to the other players? Great for Shane if he is included in the free travel money group and not so great for the players competing against him. On the other hand if Shane is not included then it's not fair to him that they get their travel expenses subsidized.

4. Why not invest in bringing WPA international events to the USA? So if there are say 8 major events around the world why not have three of them in the USA?

5. Many international professionals live in the USA and manage to travel the world playing in all WPA events so why can't our players manage to do the same. How is it fair to Darren Appleton, Mike Immonen, and Thorsten Hohmann to have the industry in the USA paying to send players to compete in international events?

6. This does NOTHING to grow pool in the USA. Nothing at all. It will not raise the profile of pool in the USA one tiny bit. So basically companies are being asked to send money to ship players to foreign countries for what purpose? So that those foreign players can compete and possibly win over there where it does not one bit of good for the sport or the industry in the USA? Want to do something for the players here? Then create a tour where they can win the money to travel on their own. Create a tour where they can raise their own profiles and be attractive to sponsors and thus get the money to travel to big events.

Let's see the BCA organize a nationwide tour with players feeding into it from local tournaments. Just like golf and tennis do it. Our players don't need travel charity. They need a way to ply their trade here so that they can then step up and play over there.

Sorry BCA and whoever else worked on this. I see it as a non-starter and as sponsorship on the cheap.

For some players it will be helpful but to me it's charity which could do more harm than good. I guess it could be argued that if the money is allocated based on the rank list then the players have to get out and play to "win" the money. In that sense I can see it being ok but overall I just think it's not the right direction we need to go in.

I think that each league should figure out how to devote a tiny part of each league player's weekly spend towards a professional tour which then would be consistent, on tv and the web and would put pool in front of millions each week. THAT would then drive more people to want to play which drives more table sales, more table time, more cue sales, and greater league participation.

Sorry but THAT is the way forward.

There is no great pyramid to admire without a broad base to hold it up. This, this is a band aid on a gaping wound in my opinion. Yes, it's "something", but really not much of a something.
 
JB,

I have to completely disagree with you. I think your distaste for anything BCA is clouding your thought. My comments below:

1. American Professional Pool is dysfunctional. Until we have a functioning and consistent professional tour in the United States we shouldn't care one bit about professional pool elsewhere in the world and whether or not any US passport holder can afford to attend them or not.

Wrong. Pool is an international sport and we must care a great deal about how our players do when competing against the rest of the world. Whether we have a 'tour' here by your definition or not. In case you had not noticed, there IS a pro tour here in the states. It just is not labeled as such or owned by a single entity or individual.

2. This is sponsorship light, it's more of a way for a group of companies to share in a feel-good sponsorship with little money really dedicated to it. (disclaimer: I have ZERO idea exactly how much is in the pot)

That is just a sour-grapes statement. I take it you will NOT be participating in the program because you would not want to feel good or something. Sorry, JB, but that is just weak.

3. Who gets the money and why? Shane Van Boening works his ass off to attain the status to garner sponsorship which affords him the opportunity to play internationally where he has to then perform well enough to keep getting invites to those events and now we want to send players who don't work as hard as Shane does to compete against him? Where is the fairness in that? Or is Shane going to also get money from this pool for his travel as well? I assume that it will be handled based on ranking which means that Shane would be entitled to get whatever stipend is available to his rank so where does that provide any "help" to the other players? Great for Shane if he is included in the free travel money group and not so great for the players competing against him. On the other hand if Shane is not included then it's not fair to him that they get their travel expenses subsidized.

You must not be a student of history. The BCA has given stipends before so we have something here to look at. ALL qualified players got stipends on an equal basis. If you traveled overseas you got money from the BCA. And as for who gets it, the top-ranked players who qualify to travel get it.

4. Why not invest in bringing WPA international events to the USA? So if there are say 8 major events around the world why not have three of them in the USA?

Now you have gone off the deep end. Why would we want WPA events in the USA? What TV broadcaster do you have in your pocket who will take the project? What promoters have the $250,000 per event required to make these things happen? How would they make their money back? Get real. The US is not where pro pool happens anymore. We have to get our players overseas where the events are and where they will remain.

5. Many international professionals live in the USA and manage to travel the world playing in all WPA events so why can't our players manage to do the same. How is it fair to Darren Appleton, Mike Immonen, and Thorsten Hohmann to have the industry in the USA paying to send players to compete in international events?

FAIR? What? Everyone who moves to the USA should get their expenses covered? Gimme a break. These adults make their own decisions as to where they live and why. Darren, Mika and Thorsten moved here knowing it would severely cripple their chances of even being eligible to go to the world events. They do not get nominated anymore by the BCA or by their home federations so they are already pretty much out in the cold if their sponsor or promoter invitations run out. Frankly, I want to take care of the American players. That is who this program is for, not every player in the world who chooses to live here.

6. This does NOTHING to grow pool in the USA. Nothing at all. It will not raise the profile of pool in the USA one tiny bit. So basically companies are being asked to send money to ship players to foreign countries for what purpose? So that those foreign players can compete and possibly win over there where it does not one bit of good for the sport or the industry in the USA? Want to do something for the players here? Then create a tour where they can win the money to travel on their own. Create a tour where they can raise their own profiles and be attractive to sponsors and thus get the money to travel to big events.

That is just bull and a very pessimistic opinion. You have no idea what will and what will not grow pool in the USA. The idea here is that an active pro scene will help grow any activity, including pool. Grow the visibility of the game and you grow the game. This grows the visibility. And here you go with "create a tour" again. Please! Before you say this again please understand that there IS a tour here. You can see the list of events on the Rankings page.

Let's see the BCA organize a nationwide tour with players feeding into it from local tournaments. Just like golf and tennis do it. Our players don't need travel charity. They need a way to ply their trade here so that they can then step up and play over there.

This is so much crap. "Just like golf and tennis". Pool is not golf or tennis or badminton. It is pool. I agree that players need a way to ply their trade over here. Trouble is, there is no way for promoters to make enough money to make this possible. Golf and tennis tournaments make serious money for the hosts. How many pool promoters you see running around in their BMW's?

Sorry BCA and whoever else worked on this. I see it as a non-starter and as sponsorship on the cheap.

And I am sorry you cannot see the positives of this program, which are huge. And if the sponsorship is so cheap, have you thrown in your $1,000 yet? Are you willing to actually help here or are you content to just sit around and ***** about how if something is not done your way then it should not be done?

For some players it will be helpful but to me it's charity which could do more harm than good. I guess it could be argued that if the money is allocated based on the rank list then the players have to get out and play to "win" the money. In that sense I can see it being ok but overall I just think it's not the right direction we need to go in.

I think that each league should figure out how to devote a tiny part of each league player's weekly spend towards a professional tour which then would be consistent, on tv and the web and would put pool in front of millions each week. THAT would then drive more people to want to play which drives more table sales, more table time, more cue sales, and greater league participation.

I would love to see that happen. But I don't run a league and neither do you and for us to tell them how they should do their business is presumptuous and immature. So, since I don't run a league, I choose to support the plan that actually exists, not some pie in the sky that does NOT exist.

Sorry but THAT is the way forward.

Only in your opinion, JB. Look, I know you will never approve of anything the BCA does due to your extreme dislike of the organization. But to attempt to sabotage this effort hurts the pro game in the USA. I suggest you either get on board and write a check or come up with a plan of your own and actually implement the damn thing. To just chirp on the sidelines is crap. Don't talk, DO something.

[/QUOTE]
 
Jerry Forsyth said:
JB,

I have to completely disagree with you. I think your distaste for anything BCA is clouding your thought. My comments below:

1. American Professional Pool is dysfunctional. Until we have a functioning and consistent professional tour in the United States we shouldn't care one bit about professional pool elsewhere in the world and whether or not any US passport holder can afford to attend them or not.

Wrong. Pool is an international sport and we must care a great deal about how our players do when competing against the rest of the world. Whether we have a 'tour' here by your definition or not. In case you had not noticed, there IS a pro tour here in the states. It just is not labeled as such or owned by a single entity or individual.

2. This is sponsorship light, it's more of a way for a group of companies to share in a feel-good sponsorship with little money really dedicated to it. (disclaimer: I have ZERO idea exactly how much is in the pot)

That is just a sour-grapes statement. I take it you will NOT be participating in the program because you would not want to feel good or something. Sorry, JB, but that is just weak.

3. Who gets the money and why? Shane Van Boening works his ass off to attain the status to garner sponsorship which affords him the opportunity to play internationally where he has to then perform well enough to keep getting invites to those events and now we want to send players who don't work as hard as Shane does to compete against him? Where is the fairness in that? Or is Shane going to also get money from this pool for his travel as well? I assume that it will be handled based on ranking which means that Shane would be entitled to get whatever stipend is available to his rank so where does that provide any "help" to the other players? Great for Shane if he is included in the free travel money group and not so great for the players competing against him. On the other hand if Shane is not included then it's not fair to him that they get their travel expenses subsidized.

You must not be a student of history. The BCA has given stipends before so we have something here to look at. ALL qualified players got stipends on an equal basis. If you traveled overseas you got money from the BCA. And as for who gets it, the top-ranked players who qualify to travel get it.

4. Why not invest in bringing WPA international events to the USA? So if there are say 8 major events around the world why not have three of them in the USA?

Now you have gone off the deep end. Why would we want WPA events in the USA? What TV broadcaster do you have in your pocket who will take the project? What promoters have the $250,000 per event required to make these things happen? How would they make their money back? Get real. The US is not where pro pool happens anymore. We have to get our players overseas where the events are and where they will remain.

5. Many international professionals live in the USA and manage to travel the world playing in all WPA events so why can't our players manage to do the same. How is it fair to Darren Appleton, Mike Immonen, and Thorsten Hohmann to have the industry in the USA paying to send players to compete in international events?

FAIR? What? Everyone who moves to the USA should get their expenses covered? Gimme a break. These adults make their own decisions as to where they live and why. Darren, Mika and Thorsten moved here knowing it would severely cripple their chances of even being eligible to go to the world events. They do not get nominated anymore by the BCA or by their home federations so they are already pretty much out in the cold if their sponsor or promoter invitations run out. Frankly, I want to take care of the American players. That is who this program is for, not every player in the world who chooses to live here.

6. This does NOTHING to grow pool in the USA. Nothing at all. It will not raise the profile of pool in the USA one tiny bit. So basically companies are being asked to send money to ship players to foreign countries for what purpose? So that those foreign players can compete and possibly win over there where it does not one bit of good for the sport or the industry in the USA? Want to do something for the players here? Then create a tour where they can win the money to travel on their own. Create a tour where they can raise their own profiles and be attractive to sponsors and thus get the money to travel to big events.

That is just bull and a very pessimistic opinion. You have no idea what will and what will not grow pool in the USA. The idea here is that an active pro scene will help grow any activity, including pool. Grow the visibility of the game and you grow the game. This grows the visibility. And here you go with "create a tour" again. Please! Before you say this again please understand that there IS a tour here. You can see the list of events on the Rankings page.

Let's see the BCA organize a nationwide tour with players feeding into it from local tournaments. Just like golf and tennis do it. Our players don't need travel charity. They need a way to ply their trade here so that they can then step up and play over there.

This is so much crap. "Just like golf and tennis". Pool is not golf or tennis or badminton. It is pool. I agree that players need a way to ply their trade over here. Trouble is, there is no way for promoters to make enough money to make this possible. Golf and tennis tournaments make serious money for the hosts. How many pool promoters you see running around in their BMW's?

Sorry BCA and whoever else worked on this. I see it as a non-starter and as sponsorship on the cheap.

And I am sorry you cannot see the positives of this program, which are huge. And if the sponsorship is so cheap, have you thrown in your $1,000 yet? Are you willing to actually help here or are you content to just sit around and ***** about how if something is not done your way then it should not be done?

For some players it will be helpful but to me it's charity which could do more harm than good. I guess it could be argued that if the money is allocated based on the rank list then the players have to get out and play to "win" the money. In that sense I can see it being ok but overall I just think it's not the right direction we need to go in.

I think that each league should figure out how to devote a tiny part of each league player's weekly spend towards a professional tour which then would be consistent, on tv and the web and would put pool in front of millions each week. THAT would then drive more people to want to play which drives more table sales, more table time, more cue sales, and greater league participation.

I would love to see that happen. But I don't run a league and neither do you and for us to tell them how they should do their business is presumptuous and immature. So, since I don't run a league, I choose to support the plan that actually exists, not some pie in the sky that does NOT exist.

Sorry but THAT is the way forward.

Only in your opinion, JB. Look, I know you will never approve of anything the BCA does due to your extreme dislike of the organization. But to attempt to sabotage this effort hurts the pro game in the USA. I suggest you either get on board and write a check or come up with a plan of your own and actually implement the damn thing. To just chirp on the sidelines is crap. Don't talk, DO something.
Click to expand...
[/QUOTE]

Sorry but I and others have tried to do things. But the only "things" that you guys value are the things you think up.

Let us not forget the reasons I have am critical of the BCA. Because they have completely done everything wrong when it comes to promoting pool in the USA.

This is no different.

Of course since I am not in the old boys club then it just sour grapes....

Not quite.


www.jbcases.com
 
You and others have "done things"? Like what? I guess I just do not know of your current efforts to do anything to strengthen the game in the US. Unless you consider sponsoring a player to be a grand effort. And as for your OPINION that the BCA has done everything wrong I just want to know: Who has done it better? I will repeat my old adage. Pool only has one boat in the water in the USA. That boat is the BCA. You can choose to pick up an oar and help row or you can choose to stand on the shore and hurl rocks. Your choice is clear.

How much would it hurt you to throw a thousand bucks at the pros? How much would it harm you to be a part of the solution instead of being a part of the problem? Just because you don't get to steer the boat you want to sink the damn thing.

The "old boys club" is a red herring argument that is meaningless. There is no old boys club and you full well know it. You just choose to not join in any efforts so you wish to harpoon those efforts. Well, I for one am tired of the bashers whose negativity has held back the game for so long. If there is an old boys club please name the members. And make sure you note exactly how they profit from being a member of the club.

Again, criticizing the honest efforts of those of us who are actually ready to step forward and write the checks is a real pisser. Your personal agenda is now directed towards destroying an effort to grow the game you purport to love. Look, if you do not want to be a part of this, fine, but why you have to hurt the program instead of just sitting idle is beyond me.

How do your posts help the pro effort in America? Are you ready to throw some serious dollars in the kitty to help fund the tour that you want to see here? If so, let me know as I have lots of ways to use those funds to help the game.

We sent our check in to help the pros yesterday. And you?
 
Wrong. Pool is an international sport and we must care a great deal about how our players do when competing against the rest of the world. Whether we have a 'tour' here by your definition or not. In case you had not noticed, there IS a pro tour here in the states. It just is not labeled as such or owned by a single entity or individual.



I cant believe you would call individual tournaments a pool tour here in the states. This is not stretching it is plain not the truth. A tour would have to be by definition ran by one entity and would without a doubt be labeled as such. Too be honest a move like this scares the crap out of me for the future of our sport here in the states. We are watching our sport die professionally and the focus is on international competition wow. If the state of pool doesnt change here we wont have the players to send who stand a chance to win anyway. Again goes back to incentive to practice and work on ones game.
 
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There's an old saying (that I'm sure to butcher somehow) that asks "how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time."

The problems professional pool has here in the US are large, and they are numerous. In my very uneducated opinion, what the BCA is trying to do here is a good thing, if only one of those "small bites". We'll need to do a lot more munching to make any real progress, but doing anything is surely better than doing nothing.

Should there be a better domestic tour structure, yep. Unless and until someone with big dreams and bigger pockets decides to tackle it, a real "tour" seems unlikely, at best. So instead of bemoaning that fact, why not get behind this latest effort, and see if it advances pro pool, even a little bit.

I applaud the BCA and those supporting this initiative, and say thanks for trying to do something.
 
I applaud the BCA and the contributors for their efforts and their support of wanting to do something for the pro players. Although the WPBA is not where is once was, I feel bad for the men because of the lack of structure in some respects and the lack of organized support their pro's get so this is a step in the right direction.

However, I would like to see something that is more sustainable put in place. This is also the problem the WPBA is facing now, when your entire structure is based on sponsorship then you are completely dependent on other people's support year after year. I would love to see the BCA at some point more move in the direction of the federations in Europe. It's no mistake that the Netherlands has 3 of the top players in the world right now. They have a very small country but a well organized federation that is structured in a way that supports their pro players and all players' development. They do this through their player licensing fees and tournament sanctioning, all of which are very nominal fees.

I just moved to Switzerland and they have the same thing here, which I have learned is common in most European countries. The federations raise money throughout the year (not thru sponsorship) and they send their players to international events like the European Championships and the world championships. Although something like this would be harder to implement in the U.S. because of it's size and the number of different league systems that already exist, it would also produce an incredible amount of support for the pro's in comparison to these smaller European countries.

I'm not tryng to discredit any of these, efforts. I think it's great that the pool industry companies are stepping up and supporting the pro players. I think this will make a huge difference in whether or not top ranked Americans will decide to go to some of these international events now so I am all for anything that support pro pool.
 
I would liken this latest effort by the BCA to painting a wall in a house while there is a gaping hole in the roof.

I'm certainly not going to say that the BCA should NOT throw their support behind an effort to increase the chances of US players playing in world events, however I would question how this relates to the BCA's stated goals
taken directly from the BCA website -

The objectives of the BCA shall be:
(1) To develop interest and participation throughout the United States in the sport of billiards and
to educate those connected with or desirous of becoming affiliated with the billiard industry.
(2) To collect and disseminate statistics and information of a general economic, social and
government character, analyze subjects relating thereto, and secure and present the view of the
members to other organizations, the government and the public.
(3) To conduct trade promotion activities, including advertising and publicity.
(4) To work with other organizations to improve all areas of the billiard industry.
(5) To engage in any lawful activity that will enhance the efficient and economic progress of the
industry and inform the public of its scope and character.

I guess in some ways this might fall under sections 3 and 4 of the above stated goals. Contributors would receive logo recognition in WPA correspondence, logo recognition relating the BCA Points Rankings on the BCA website and AZ Billiards, and each contributor will have the right to use their official status as an "Official Contributor to International Competition".

I would agree with previous posters though who pointed out that this does very little to increase awareness of the sport in the USA.

There was a prime opportunity for the industry to get a behind a true organized tour last year, when the Seminole tribe put on 3 $25K added events and a season finale $50K added event. To the best of my knowledge, they struggled to fill the field for the last event (if they did fill it). I would ask where all the love and support of this effort to establish a real "US pro tour" (open to both men and women I might add) was last year when an organization that COULD fund a tour gave it a shot only to see absolutely no return on their investment, and not much in the way of support from the billiards community.

Yes, Official Contributor to International Competition is something, and it seems to be a continuation of the pro player fund that AZ billiards was trying to create a few years ago. No doubt that many American pool players and fans would love to see more US players in international play, and more than that, see them succeed. But with declining participation in our sport domestically and declining BCA membership overall, I have to ask why this initiative and why now?

Could the BCA not solicit funds for a better use for its membership than to send US players overseas where US companies will see little, if any, return on their investment (unless they are going after international market share)? Might there be a use for funds raised that will do more to promote the sport domestically and increase its visibility and overall participation?

I ask these questions in all sincerity and hope that someone can provide sound and logical reasoning to support this effort as it pertains to the BCA's stated mission to "enhance the success of its members and to promote the sport of billiards".
 
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Jerry Forsyth said:
You and others have "done things"? Like what? I guess I just do not know of your current efforts to do anything to strengthen the game in the US. Unless you consider sponsoring a player to be a grand effort. And as for your OPINION that the BCA has done everything wrong I just want to know: Who has done it better? I will repeat my old adage. Pool only has one boat in the water in the USA. That boat is the BCA. You can choose to pick up an oar and help row or you can choose to stand on the shore and hurl rocks. Your choice is clear.

How much would it hurt you to throw a thousand bucks at the pros? How much would it harm you to be a part of the solution instead of being a part of the problem? Just because you don't get to steer the boat you want to sink the damn thing.

The "old boys club" is a red herring argument that is meaningless. There is no old boys club and you full well know it. You just choose to not join in any efforts so you wish to harpoon those efforts. Well, I for one am tired of the bashers whose negativity has held back the game for so long. If there is an old boys club please name the members. And make sure you note exactly how they profit from being a member of the club.

Again, criticizing the honest efforts of those of us who are actually ready to step forward and write the checks is a real pisser. Your personal agenda is now directed towards destroying an effort to grow the game you purport to love. Look, if you do not want to be a part of this, fine, but why you have to hurt the program instead of just sitting idle is beyond me.

How do your posts help the pro effort in America? Are you ready to throw some serious dollars in the kitty to help fund the tour that you want to see here? If so, let me know as I have lots of ways to use those funds to help the game.

We sent our check in to help the pros yesterday. And you?
Click to expand...

No Jerry,

We, as in Sterling because I am speaking of my time with them for the purpose of this discussion, spent quite a lot helping the pros over a period of many years by giving them checks EVERY MONTH. We paid off credit card bills, paid the rent, provided houses, co-signed loans, paid for tournament entries, arranged exhibitions, printed thousands of cards and posters featuring them, and generally tried to promote them as professionals to the public.

For pool we spent a lot of money and time promoting it on national radio programs with ZERO help from the BCA even after begging them for help.

When the BCA Expo was in our home city of Charlotte we asked the BCA to join us in promotional efforts to increase the attendance at the accompany pro event. Our pleas were met with silence.

But it's not about the BCA here. It's a about a program that doesn't address the fundamental problem. That problem is the fact that there is no proper professional organization in the United State and no organized tour in the USA.

I am sorry if you see this as peeing on your cornflakes when I say that I don't like it. What do you really care what others think about it anyway? You all are going to do what you are going to do anyway.

If there is a "tour" in the USA then why isn't it providing enough money for the top players on that tour to travel to international events?

And the reason that I mentioned Darren, Thorsten and Mika was not to say that the BCA or this travel fund should he shared with them. Instead it was to point out that these three professional players CHOOSE to live in the USA and STILL manage to go to all international WPA events. And as you mentioned they even live under a self-imposed hardship by cutting themselves off from the WPA member orgs in their own home countries. So for them to participate in WPA events is EXACTLY as costly as for United States citizen pros in the USA - AND - it's harder politically because they do not sit high on the ranking lists in their respective countries and so they have to rely on wild cards and favors or maintaining a sufficiently high ranking on the WPA rank list to continue to be invited to these events.

If they can do this while living in the USA without getting any extra stipends then WHY can't American professional players do it as well?

For you to say I have a personal agenda is ridiculous. I have spent quite a bit of time trying to work with professionals to help them raise their own profile and made hundreds of thoughtful posts on this forum laying out dozens of grassroots methods which can grow into enduring success for pool in the USA. And a thriving pool climate in the USA means by extension a thriving professional tour with attendant sponsorships.

Want proof? Throughout the 90s when pool was booming in the USA the pros then traveled the world to every major international event. How did they do it then without getting charity from the BCA?

Or did they? Have they always been getting travel charity? If so then why don't they get travel charity for going across the country in America as well. Certainly the professionals in California are a major disadvantage against the pros who live on the East Coast when it comes to the US Open and the Joss Tour?

If you want applause then ok. Your collective heart is in the right place. Wanting to see more US pros at international events is an admirable sentiment. Doing something about it is better than doing nothing. Every little bit helps.

APPLAUSE.

Now, when can we get back to the actual problem that pool players in the USA don't WANT to work for their own future and the organizations (plural) trying to govern them are continually ineffectual and at odds with each other?
 
Amen John!!! You are dead right on all counts!

What has the BCA done for pool since they no longer have the pool league under their wing? Nothing. Jerry, if you want to cheerlead and applaud efforts for promoting pool in America pump your pom poms at Mark Griffin, Greg Sullivan, TAR, the Seminole Tribe, and the evil Barry Behrman. They have done 100 times more for pool than the BCA has ever done.
 
Not to mention Mike Janis, Shannon Daulton, Mike Zuglan, the WPBA, Tommy Kennedy, John DiToro, Jay Helfert, etc....... Oh yeah, Mike Howerton.... All of which have done far more to promote American pool in the past twenty years than the BCA.
 
JB Cases said:
No Jerry,

We, as in Sterling because I am speaking of my time with them for the purpose of this discussion, spent quite a lot helping the pros over a period of many years by giving them checks EVERY MONTH. We paid off credit card bills, paid the rent, provided houses, co-signed loans, paid for tournament entries, arranged exhibitions, printed thousands of cards and posters featuring them, and generally tried to promote them as professionals to the public.

For pool we spent a lot of money and time promoting it on national radio programs with ZERO help from the BCA even after begging them for help.

When the BCA Expo was in our home city of Charlotte we asked the BCA to join us in promotional efforts to increase the attendance at the accompany pro event. Our pleas were met with silence.

But it's not about the BCA here. It's a about a program that doesn't address the fundamental problem. That problem is the fact that there is no proper professional organization in the United State and no organized tour in the USA.

I am sorry if you see this as peeing on your cornflakes when I say that I don't like it. What do you really care what others think about it anyway? You all are going to do what you are going to do anyway.

If there is a "tour" in the USA then why isn't it providing enough money for the top players on that tour to travel to international events?

And the reason that I mentioned Darren, Thorsten and Mika was not to say that the BCA or this travel fund should he shared with them. Instead it was to point out that these three professional players CHOOSE to live in the USA and STILL manage to go to all international WPA events. And as you mentioned they even live under a self-imposed hardship by cutting themselves off from the WPA member orgs in their own home countries. So for them to participate in WPA events is EXACTLY as costly as for United States citizen pros in the USA - AND - it's harder politically because they do not sit high on the ranking lists in their respective countries and so they have to rely on wild cards and favors or maintaining a sufficiently high ranking on the WPA rank list to continue to be invited to these events.

If they can do this while living in the USA without getting any extra stipends then WHY can't American professional players do it as well?

For you to say I have a personal agenda is ridiculous. I have spent quite a bit of time trying to work with professionals to help them raise their own profile and made hundreds of thoughtful posts on this forum laying out dozens of grassroots methods which can grow into enduring success for pool in the USA. And a thriving pool climate in the USA means by extension a thriving professional tour with attendant sponsorships.

Want proof? Throughout the 90s when pool was booming in the USA the pros then traveled the world to every major international event. How did they do it then without getting charity from the BCA?

Or did they? Have they always been getting travel charity? If so then why don't they get travel charity for going across the country in America as well. Certainly the professionals in California are a major disadvantage against the pros who live on the East Coast when it comes to the US Open and the Joss Tour?

If you want applause then ok. Your collective heart is in the right place. Wanting to see more US pros at international events is an admirable sentiment. Doing something about it is better than doing nothing. Every little bit helps.

APPLAUSE.

Now, when can we get back to the actual problem that pool players in the USA don't WANT to work for their own future and the organizations (plural) trying to govern them are continually ineffectual and at odds with each other?
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How come I cant write as good as you. Well anyway very well said post and I happen to agree with everything you said.
 
storke said:
Wrong. Pool is an international sport and we must care a great deal about how our players do when competing against the rest of the world. Whether we have a 'tour' here by your definition or not. In case you had not noticed, there IS a pro tour here in the states. It just is not labeled as such or owned by a single entity or individual.



I cant believe you would call individual tournaments a pool tour here in the states. This is not stretching it is plain not the truth. A tour would have to be by definition ran by one entity and would without a doubt be labeled as such. Too be honest a move like this scares the crap out of me for the future of our sport here in the states. We are watching our sport die professionally and the focus is on international competition wow. If the state of pool doesnt change here we wont have the players to send who stand a chance to win anyway. Again goes back to incentive to practice and work on ones game.
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I agree, there is NO tour in the USA. I can enter every one of those tourneys! I am not a pro!
Sounds to me like pro pool is moving overseas. Kinda like our jobs did. Once its gone it will never be back!
 
ososlow said:
I agree, there is NO tour in the USA. I can enter every one of those tourneys! I am not a pro!
Sounds to me like pro pool is moving overseas. Kinda like our jobs did. Once its gone it will never be back!
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There have always been major events overseas. Only china has added a few more events and the world ten ball has been added in the Philippines.

Pro pool in the USA has always had plenty of problems staying organized.

Pro pool is not moving overseas. There is no pro tour anywhere on the planet. None of these events are for professional players only. Who IS a professional player is a debate as well.
 
storke said:
So look me in the eye and tell me the best thing we can do considering the current state of professional pool in america is to send these players internationally.
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American pool players traveling to exotic places like Singapore, Hong Kong, Dubai, ect... to play in tournaments with large added prize money and world class fields helps create an alure towards professional pool. It is something that alot of people would like to do, and if pool becomes a game where IF you excel at it and become a top player in America it will allow you to travel the world to play in highly prestigious events then ya, that will help pool in America because it will give people a reason to start to play and attempt to become the best.

Trust me, in a world where Corey Deuel got bored and simply quit playing the game pool REALLY needs that in America.

Part of the reason golf is so popular is the professional lifestyle it sells of traveling the world to all sorts of exotic places and playing a game for big money. Poker understood this, and they did a GREAT job marketing the "dream" to the general public. Chris Moneymaker sitting in his penthouse condo overlooking the Las Vegas strip and saying "same guy, nicer watch" while flashing a $40,000 watch. Sports as a whole sell dreams, they sell the image of awesome that the fans of the sport are left to dream about. Pool definately needs to create more of that image, and this is a very small step in a direction that this sport most definately needs to go in.

What this sport does not need at this stage is an "American" tour, it needs to attempt to become a "global" professional sport with events in America, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East, all as part of the same professional WORLD tour. In order to do that countries all need to do what the BCA is setting out to do here and form a way to fund the travel of professional players to international events.
 
Celtic said:
American pool players traveling to exotic places like Singapore, Hong Kong, Dubai, ect... to play in tournaments with large added prize money and world class fields helps create an alure towards professional pool. It is something that alot of people would like to do, and if pool becomes a game where IF you excel at it and become a top player in America it will allow you to travel the world to play in highly prestigious events then ya, that will help pool in America because it will give people a reason to start to play and attempt to become the best.

Trust me, in a world where Corey Deuel got bored and simply quit playing the game pool REALLY needs that in America.

Part of the reason golf is so popular is the professional lifestyle it sells of traveling the world to all sorts of exotic places and playing a game for big money. Poker understood this, and they did a GREAT job marketing the "dream" to the general public. Chris Moneymaker sitting in his penthouse condo overlooking the Las Vegas strip and saying "same guy, nicer watch" while flashing a $40,000 watch. Sports as a whole sell dreams, they sell the image of awesome that the fans of the sport are left to dream about. Pool definately needs to create more of that image, and this is a very small step in a direction that this sport most definately needs to go in.

What this sport does not need at this stage is an "American" tour, it needs to attempt to become a "global" professional sport with events in America, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East, all as part of the same professional WORLD tour. In order to do that countries all need to do what the BCA is setting out to do here and form a way to fund the travel of professional players to international events.
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Please. As if this would EVER be marketed as a lifestyle in any way that would move the public towards playing more pool. Not gonna happen.

www.jbcases.com
 
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