The Aging Gunfighter

I'm 62 (almost).

I don't get the big thrill out of winning, kicking butt and taking names, that I did when I was younger, it just doesn't mean that much any more and hasn't for several years.

Loss of desire? I guess maybe you could call it that but it feel more like learning that life has more to offer and the things that seemed iimportant when I was "a kid" just don't have the meaning they used to.....the glitter wears off :)

That doesn't make the trappings of old age better in any way than those of more youthful days, or vice-versa...it's just the process of aging. The passing of a few years has mellow me out and from what I observe of others this is a common trait of having passed through a few phases, having been around a few blocks and through a few dark alleys.

I think Blackjack said it pretty well. It's inner peace that satisfy's....as opposed to fame and fortune. Life at both ends can be good. Youth is like the chocolate shell and when that has been devoured by the passing of a few days we reach the inner candy which is even sweeter!! When I was younger I couldn't see, feel, taste or touch in any way that sweeter candy. You have to finish the outer shell before you can see that inner goodie. You have to. That's just the way life is set up. The trick is to decide to be happy regardless of which phase you are passing through. That phase will be over pretty quickly and if you didn't enjoy it you missed it. It's gone. It's over. It won't be back. You blew your chance. Try it again today. Play some Zen pool enjoying the excellence of the game.

One of these days it will be a passing on to the phase which is invisible to us now. But even that is just another phase. Life really IS eternal.
 
Last edited:
I think another thing is, when you're young you don't realize just how hard this game is.. You just plug away and see what happens. When you're older, you know how hard the game is and maybe don't want to work at it, because you prejudge the limits of your results.

But then there's guys like Williebetmore who are experiencing growth in their games after they've gone "over the hill." I think of myself doing that, too. I'm going on 52 and I'm working harder on my game then I ever did, just with different techniques. This has made my playing continuably enjoyable, bad eyes and all. It's almost as if I have new challenges to overcome, with my aging changes.

So, it is mostly the attitude one holds, I suppose.

If nobody told you how old you were, would you think in these terms or would some other paradigm fill your thoughts?

I looking forward to playing 3-D space pool when I'm in my 200's.

Jeff Livingston
 
chefjeff said:
I think another thing is, when you're young you don't realize just how hard this game is.. You just plug away and see what happens. When you're older, you know how hard the game is and maybe don't want to work at it, because you prejudge the limits of your results.

I think the factor having the greatest impact as far as who beats who is the change in the rules allowing a person to play safe with ball in hand becoming the main strategy in nine ball instead of shot making as the overall strategy (the way the game was intended to be played) .. . canwin
Click to expand...
 
The game has changed. Nowdays guys are more agressive, more precise and with a better stroke. Players of old stand very erect and use very short bridges. I'm not sure that type of technique is ideal for today's fast paced 9ball. I just can't see how a guy with 5 inch bridge could draw the cue ball as well as let's say Pagulayan.
 
Pagulayan

I definately agree that Pagulayan has added a new style to the game with his agressive play. He is by far my favorite player to watch.
 
Nervous system breaks down

;) At age 59 1/2 I have to constantly try to adjust my nervous system to stand up to the many ass whippings you have to take to play pool for money.
I can't see no more, but that isn't really the problem, I know several top players who can't see a lick. It's your central nervous system that goes first, you can get lasik for your eyes (Jimmy Reid, example) who now has perfect vision, but still can't come close to his previous younger speed. :confused:
 
predator said:
The game has changed. Nowdays guys are more agressive, more precise and with a better stroke. Players of old stand very erect and use very short bridges. I'm not sure that type of technique is ideal for today's fast paced 9ball. I just can't see how a guy with 5 inch bridge could draw the cue ball as well as let's say Pagulayan.
Click to expand...

LOL. I don't believe a word of that. The greatest 9 ball player I ever saw was Luther Lassiter. I would put him in with any of todays young guns, and believe me, Wimpy could give a lot of them the 7 out. In my era, it was guys like Varner, Hall, Sigel, West, Roberts, Strickland, Margo, Hopkins, Parica, Mizerak, Rempe, Howard, Davenport, Bollman, Liscotti, Allen, McCready etc, etc, etc. All of the above mentioned players were dominant and OWNED their brackets at any tournament. Some of them are still playing very well, and have maintained their consistency and adapted to the styles of the younger players. Comparing era's is very difficult, but I believe that any of the players I mentioned would be more than successful in the mess that is called professional pocket billiards in 2005.

Also, as far as competitive drive diminishing with age, What about the late great Cowboy Jimmy Moore? I ran a hundred or so on him, played safe, and sat down. Cowboy, who was close to 80 years old at the time, got up and ran 120 and out as I and several others marveled at his wonderful rhythm, his stamina, his accuracy, and that beautiful slip stroke. I also watched Cowboy win a match against Keith McCready in a bar box tournament around the same time period.

Also, lets not forget the cue wizardry of Spanish Mike Lebron. He was well in his fifties when he was sending guys packing (like Archer, Wetch, Maryo, Ellin, all kids) at every pro tournament.

Also...to this very day, nobody scares Bucktooth....lol
 
Last edited:
Blackjack said:
LOL. I don't believe a word of that. The greatest 9 ball player I ever saw was Luther Lassiter. I would put him in with any of todays young guns, and believe me, Wimpy could give a lot of the 7 out. In my era, it was guys like Varner, Hall, Sigel, West, Roberts, Strickland, Margo, Hopkins, Parica, Mizerak, Rempe, Howard, Davenport, Bollman, Liscotti, Allen, McCready etc, etc, etc. All of the above mentioned players were dominant and OWNED their brackets at any tournament. Some of them are still playing very well, and have maintained their consistency and adapted to the styles of the younger players. Comparing era's is very difficult, but I believe that any of the players I mentioned would be more than successful in the mess that is called professional pocket billiards in 2005.

Also, as far as competitive drive diminishing with age, What about the late great Cowboy Jimmy Moore? I ran a hundred or so on him, played safe, and sat down. Cowboy, who was close to 80 years old at the time, got up and ran 120 and out as I and several others marveled at his wonderful rhythm, his stamina, his accuracy, and that beautiful slip stroke. I also watched Cowboy win a match against Keith McCready in a bar box tournament around the same time period.

Also, lets not forget the cue wizardry of Spanish Mike Lebron. He was well in his fifties when he was sending guys packing (like Archer, Wetch, Maryo, Ellin, all kids) at every pro tournament.

Also...to this very day, nobody scares Bucktooth....lol
Click to expand...

since you mentioned bollman, lets not forget he placed what 6th in the us open this year? knocking names such as souqet out.

i think the reason is as stated earlier, that they just don't play as much anymore. most of the older players mentioned in this thread were pretty much on the road during their prime, as many of the younger players today are on the road all the time. playing everyday like that, its hard not to be in stroke.

i think its just a matter of staying in stroke. the players that are playing competitively all the time are the ones winning.

i'm sure there are exceptions to this as always, i'm sure their are some older players who are still playing everyday. i just think that for the most part, its all about playing and being in stroke.

thanks
 
jungledude said:
;) At age 59 1/2 I have to constantly try to adjust my nervous system to stand up to the many ass whippings you have to take to play pool for money.
I can't see no more, but that isn't really the problem, I know several top players who can't see a lick. It's your central nervous system that goes first, you can get lasik for your eyes (Jimmy Reid, example) who now has perfect vision, but still can't come close to his previous younger speed. :confused:
Click to expand...


I'm pretty much leaning a lot to what you've said here and think there's quite a bit of validity to it. I think all of the big money games that were played when you were younger with all of the pressure and nerves jumping out of your skin have a cumulative affect over time. Not to mention all of the hard drinking and pill popping. The more you played when you were young for the big cash and if it was continuous thoughout life, the greater the toll. Again, there were some exceptions to the rule but not for most.
 
I think the truth is that none of us can accurately explain what goes on within any of us and certanly can't explain anything about anyone else. Only those who have been through the phases of their life will have any idea what's going on during those phases and those who want to know will hve to wait and hope they live long enough to begin to understand what's going on within themselves. Once they do begin to see they will have learned enough to stop trying to explain anything about anyone else.
 
drivermaker said:
We all know what happens to aging gunfighters, boxers, football, baseball and basketball players. At a certain point they lose speed, strength, and sometimes coordination. But what is it about the aging process that makes a pro pool player (or any good player) start declining in their skill level?

I mean, what's the big deal about moving your forearm back and forth that could affect play? Take Buddy Hall, Earl, Nick Varner, Sigel, Jim Rempe, Allen Hopkins, and maybe even Keith as examples. Don't get me wrong, they're all still very fine players, but they get stomped at times by no names that couldn't even carry their case for them at one time.

In Varner's case he has the shakes in his stroke and Hopkins is kinda like an old golfer with the yips in that there's hardly a backstroke. So is it the nerves, eyes, concentration, drive or something else. When you look at Buddy, he still has the most beautiful stroke imaginable along with the experience and a knowledge base that grows each year. With Buddy, Earl, Rempe, and Sigel, I can't even pick up on what is causing them to either lose to lesser players, or just not even want to compete any more because of a decline. It sure hasn't hit Efren yet.

I don't even know if the younger guys can really answer this since they've not experienced problems of aging. So, thoughts?
Click to expand...

How many ex-good players have you seen with the "old man stroke"? I've seen enough to know that some players lose their steadyness over the shot, and end up with taking a short, shaky poke at the shots. They lose their good stroke. Some do and some don't, it's as simple as that.

I believe that there is a gradual degeneration of our fine motor skills as we age. It doesn't mean they can't play well. It just means they will no longer beat the best in the world.

Good question by the way.

Chris
 
Last edited:
classiccues said:
I think one of the major problems is when these guys were winning there was not the amount of competition there is now.

Joe
Click to expand...

Yeah but in saying something like that are you stating that Buddy Hall or Varner in their prime would not have been as dominate today as in the past? I have to disagree, if Varner or Hall could be magically reverted back to their early 20's and could "do it all again" they would do just that, they would most likely both be top players in the world just like they were. Sigel should not even have been a person in this debate, the guy quit near the top and now he does not play so of course he is not winning tournaments, you actually have to enter a tounrament to win it.

I dont see the pool scene as being THAT much more tough as you mention. Gabe Owen, Basavich, Jones, ect... these guys are winning tournaments that we will never see the old timers like Hall or Varner win again, but Hall or Varner in their prime were a head above either of those mentioned players IMO. In their prime Varner and Hall would both be good for winning a few big events each year and they would be favorites in the US Open, the Worlds, ect... Instead they are old and noone expects them to ever win a major event again, despite the scene not being that much tougher then their days. Look at the early 90's pool scene, the scene has definately not gotten tougher then that.
 
Celtic said:
Yeah but in saying something like that are you stating that Buddy Hall or Varner in their prime would not have been as dominate today as in the past? I have to disagree, if Varner or Hall could be magically reverted back to their early 20's and could "do it all again" they would do just that, they would most likely both be top players in the world just like they were.

Look at the early 90's pool scene, the scene has definately not gotten tougher then that.
Click to expand...


I totally agree with all that you said, and you can include a whole bunch of other names like Mosconi, Crane, Lassiter, Kelly, etc. Why? Because they all had the "heart" of a champion and nothing or nobody was going to stand in their way. There may in fact be a good number of rockin' players at any given time, but there aren't many that are gifted with that "heart" over the long haul of a career. They're like meteors flashing across the sky. They burn brightly for a short time and then they're gone.

If the playing field was that much deeper, as it is now, they all would have done SOMETHING to make themselves that much better to rise above the rest. They did it then and they would do it at any time in history, whether it was through more practice, more focus and concentration, better health, regardless of the games played that are in and out of vogue as 9 ball is the big game now.

As someone posted on this thread, Johnny Ervalino was livid that he lost to Mika at a 14.1 match in his advanced age. That's the heart of a champion and he proved it by waxing him in the next go around. And I do believe as he said that when he was 14 he could have beaten him like a drum.
 
Dueling Banjos!

Well, here's my take on it, FWIW! :p

There ain't too much in the way of archives when it comes to pool from days gone by. A fellow native Washingtonian told me that somewhere deep in the basement of the Smithsonian Institute, there's a pocket billiard section. In the Library of Congress, there's a few records relating to pool as well. The best source of what actually happened in the earlier years, unfortunately, can only come from those who were actually there.

Mosconi's heyday, the availability of up-to-date news, much like what we read here on this forum, was not too plentiful. The baby-boomer generation may know how strong the level of play was, but folks born after 1960 may not be as well-versed on the strengths of pool players in that era.

In the '70s and early '80s, when Buddy Hall, Nick Varner, Allen Hopkins, and Jim Rempe were on top of their games, the tournament results were recorded by print media, but much of the news was disseminated by word of mouth, again, by those who were actually there.

In today's world, due to the advent of technology, i.e., broadcast media such as Accu-Stats/BCn/ESPN, pool-related websites, introduction of new innovative pocket billiard games, cell phones, and print media, most folks are provided an opportunity to see the BEST of the best in a variety of ways.

Also, American pool seems to be popular on the international scene, attracting champions from around the globe. However, pool overseas in the Asian-Pacific countries ranks higher on the totem pole when it comes to sports; thus, a bigger pot of gold to aspiring players AND American pool industry vendors. It is curious, though, that some Asian tours pose restrictions to country of origin as an eligibility requirement to competition; yet, they sure do love products made in the US of A. As well, they like traveling to America and competing in the Open events, those tournaments that are truly open to all. Half of the 64-player field of the BCA Open is reserved for foreign participants, and the other half, UPA-ranked touring pros. America truly is the land of opportunity. Unfortunately, the American pie isn't big enough to make a decent living for most.

It's obvious why we know much more about today's players. To do a statistically significant comparison between the level of play between Irving Crane and Earl Strickland, as two examples, would be quite difficult for obvious reasons.

To date, there is a flavor of history repeating itself. Pool organizations and industry entities and the players themselves need to unite and have one common goal: to promote the sport. Instead, pocket billiards in the States implodes itself every 10 or 20 years, due to the infighting and greed, and because of it, pocket billiards champion, then and now, are indeed a rare breed. For all of their years of devoting their life to the sport, that and a nickel won't buy you a cup of coffee, especially at Starbucks! ;)

It would be nice to see a celebration of the history of pool at its finest, to include all of its sundry characters in a documentary some day. Maybe then, the aging gunfighters will enjoy their celebrity status instead of being put out to pasture like a retired thoroughbred waiting for the glue factory.

JMHO, FWIW! :)

JAM
 
The answer is "it".

They just don't have "it" anymore.

Actually the problem is just the aging process. Every part of your body ages and deterioates causing the human machine to operate at less than perfection.

Jake
 
the aging gun fighter

Well i just returned from the d.c.c. won my first match 7-0. lost second 7-3. but i still think I can still compet. with afew. {age 67} SHOOT STRAIGHT STICK KYTLE :D :D :D :D
 
stick8 said:
Well i just returned from the d.c.c. won my first match 7-0. lost second 7-3. but i still think I can still compet. with afew. {age 67} SHOOT STRAIGHT STICK KYTLE :D :D :D :D
Click to expand...


67! That's great! I think age did catch up with you because you seemed to get a little winded by that next match. ;) Gotta work on that stamina...
You should be proud. :D
 
stick8 said:
Well i just returned from the d.c.c. won my first match 7-0. lost second 7-3. but i still think I can still compet. with afew. {age 67} SHOOT STRAIGHT STICK KYTLE :D :D :D :D
Click to expand...
Hey Stick,

Is 67 your age, or how many women you slept with while you were in Louisville? I wondered why you weren't in Atlanta and Athens the past couple of weekends.

See you soon.

Mike
 
old gun slingers

to mike templeton: at my age and all the women in kentucky, that should tell you the reason i was not in ata-athens,the call it recopuration!!!!!ha hope to see you soon OLD MAN STICK
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top